peteb

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1444343326' post='2882518'] For me, the bedroom is good for woodsheding and only woodsheding. Blue [/quote] Dude - you are getting old...

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1443888678' post='2878519'] Sideman or not unless it's the star of the band any member can be replaced relatively easy. Blue [/quote] Depends - no one is irreplaceable but if someone is a major contributor to writing songs or is seen as a core part of the band by the audience, then it is a lot more difficult to replace them without significantly changing the character of the band...

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1443768264' post='2877466'] Can someone give the definition of sideman and pick-up band? [/quote] A variation of a pick-up band is a 'scratch' band, which is put together for a specific performance and without any rehearsal.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1443719583' post='2877173'] Agreed, gotcha. To me Beatles and Stones music is timeless and not old fashion. [/quote] Actually, on this issue I don't think that it really matters so much whether you think that the Beatles / Stones are timeless and still relevant today! I would say that the point is that past generations of men would hit their fifties and would start ‘acting’ middle aged – you know, investing in a pipe and a good pair of slippers from M&S and dressing from the sales rail at Greenwoods!! Whereas people your age are part of the ‘rock and roll’ generation that were brought up in the 60s and even though you are now in your sixties still have pretty much the same attitude that you have had all your adult life, as evidenced by the way you dress and general lifestyle! Obviously it is pretty much the same for the subsequent generations, including people like me and my mates who were first introduced to music in the 70s. These days middle aged people obviously still get older, but they don’t always choose to grow up into middle / old age in the way that their parents did…

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443727707' post='2877273'] Nope, I'm always a sideman as I don't do the gig solo and I play the bass part. And as a sideman, I'd expect input and to contribute. [/quote] [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443729047' post='2877296'] I meant, I'm a sideman and I was hired to play bass and sing, not pick or make decisions on material. I don't expect nor do I have any interest in song choice or creative input. That is why, for me , I come up with new bass lines , positions or other things to make songs I don't care for fun. And when I say sideman , I mean guys that play in only 1 band. So my point was or suggestion was aimed at other sideman like me that don't have the interest or the option to can songs. It might be different in the UK, in the States I don't know of any [i]"sideman" [/i]bass players that make decisions on material or any other band decisions. You show up and you play the songs that are called. Blue [/quote] Surely by definition a sideman is just there to play bass, can be replaced relatively easily and doesn’t have much input on material and other creative decisions. I would have thought that being a sideman would make it easier to play in multiple bands. In one of my current bands I am definitely part of the frontline and not a sideman. The band is run as sort of a democracy but me and the guitarist (as the most experienced players) tend to choose material (although we take care to pick songs the other two will be happy with) and MD the band between us, whilst the drummer does most of the marketing / social media stuff, etc. In some of my other bands I take on more of a sideman role…

Awesome gig with BALLS TO THE WALL at the Lion in Cas Vegas (Castleford to non-locals). All rock pub gigs should be like the Lion...!

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1443385676' post='2874339'] Still trying to figure it out, but a straightish neck, low action but no fretbuzz. I do like quite a high tension in the strings though, that's a recent development. [/quote] Same here - neck straight as possible, low action without fretbuzz and a tight feel in the strings (45-105)...

I carry round a GK micro amp in my gig bag. It's not really loud enough for a gig but at a push it will do for onstage monitoring and then it can be used as a DI to go thru the PA as well...

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442960818' post='2871035'] Hi Pete, No, not at all and this is where there might be a cultural difference. Not many stay for the whole 4 hours. The club will stay packed ok, but we get different crowds. The crowd were playing to at midnight is a different group of punters than those that were there at 9:00. When we play at Kim's we know a whole new crowd, probably coming from another bar will show up around midnight. This is something the band has to pay close attention to, because there's material you will want to save, the stuff you know will be better suited for that late crowd. They usually have been drinking longer, so we save most of our dance material for them. Bar bands really have to have 4 hours worth of good stuff. We probably have over a hundred songs, so you pick and chose depending on the crowd. Like most bands we save our best show stoppers to close with. You might have seen our version of Nancy Sinatra's [i]"Boots Are Made for Walking" [/i]If you haven't I'll post it. Old Clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owoulj3y-vY Blue [/quote] That's pretty much what I imagined. You used to get some gigs like that over here but not many these days In my neck of the woods. As I said before, lots of gigs like that in mainland Europe. Audiences who come to see bands like mine in pubs tend to stay for the whole performance (usually just under two hours with a break). Some will then go on to a club afterwards to finish the night off.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442958403' post='2871011'] I just don't get the only playing for 2 hours. That's just about when I'm getting warmed up. I think I'll make the point that many of the bars we play are more like real music venues. Were playing a bar called Kim"s Lakeside. Really small place. People come there specifically to hear live bands. Are bands more of an after thought or like background music at pubs? Blue [/quote] Depends on the pub! Virtually all the pub gigs that I play are where people come especially to see the band... Funnily enough, I think that two hours is quite a long time for an audience to engage with and watch a performance by a band, unless of course they have loads of their albums! I would think that playing for four hours is more likely to make an audience treat the band as background music?

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442949453' post='2870909'] From what I'm reading, playing pub gigs is really different than a bar gigs. Blue [/quote] I'm guessing that US bar gigs are more like bar gigs in Holland / Northern Europe! Actually, this thread is quite apt as the drummer in one of my bands announced that he was going to jack it in for a while at the gig on Sunday. His reasons for quitting (at least for a while) is that he is having to work shifts for the foreseeable future and, more importantly that his wife is struggling to recover from a serious operation. Something has to give and unfortunately (but understandably) it's committing to gigging regularly with a band…

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442911988' post='2870365'] Exactly. Sad I know, but I get a kick out of every part, from putting the gigs in the diary and loading the car and driving to the gig. When people say "worst part of the night" at the end, it isn't for me. I love the load out etc. It means I've done a gig. Of course I'd prefer to be playing with Clapton at the Albert Hall, but I love doing good gigs and, as long as I play well, I'll take a bad gig over a night watching TV any time. The worst part about gigging for me is waiting for the next one. [/quote] I kinda know what you mean. I don't mind breaking gear down and the load out at the end of the night and sometimes I quite appreciate the motorway drive home, knowing that you have just done a decent gig. What I don't like is having to get up to go to the office the next morning! Also, as much as I appreciate the odd weekend off, two gigs a month is not enough for me. If nothing else, I know that my playing is a lot better when I'm gigging regularly...

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442830249' post='2869709'] +1 The reason I learnt to play an instrument was so I could join a band and gig. [/quote] I read an interview with Leland Sklar last night where he said that he still gets excited when gets a call for a live gig, 'even in a bar'! So after playing some of the biggest gigs in the business, Sklar still looks forward to a local bar gig!

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442693343' post='2868857'] They're obviously good enough to get the gigs. Next time you see one of these bands, ask yourself, what is the magic ingredient they have. Study the way they interact with the crowd closely. A clue; it has nothing to do with the quality of the musicianship. . [/quote] I think that you maybe missing the point - it's not that they've got a great act without being technically great players, just that they are very mediocre bands who wouldn't get work in progress places like America where the standard for bar bands is higher. I've just come back from an established rock gig where we had a very good night. Talking to a local biker guy who's been watching bands for years who said that we were the one of two credible bands on the local rock circuit, whereas a few years ago every band was that good. I didn't agree and said that the time he was taking about there were maybe five decent bands around. The point is that there are not enough quality bands on the circuit, both in terms of musicianship and performance....

Wharfedale EVP powered monitors are good quality, simple to use, do the job and are good value (you can always pick them up cheap on ebay). Ideal for pub / club type gigs. http://www.wharfedalepro.com/product-detail.php?pid=123

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1442649511' post='2868405'] Having worked both sides of the Atlantic, I would have to say the standard of players I saw & worked with in the USA absolutely obliterated most of the pub and club bands I see in the UK today. Part of the problem is the number of people like yourself, who do it for the love of playing with no thought to the money aspect. You crowd out a lot of the bad bands, but also reduce the number of paying gigs a professional player can go after. There is a whole other level above lightly-rehearsed amateur bands where a good 4 hour show is perfectly do-able IF you put the time in to get road-hardened. Not easy, but then if you are working at that level it IS your job [/quote] Surely any professional player expecting to make a living playing in pubs (certainly in the UK) needs to have a word with himself and get a day job! Simple economics mean that a pub is not going to pay more than £200-£300 (at the most) and a share of that is not going to provide what most people would consider a half-decent living. The real problem is the number of ‘amateur’ bands that are just not good enough but still get plenty of work in pubs crowding out better bands and there are not enough good quality bands to displace them...

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442611950' post='2868292'] Personally..and I think I speak from experience 2 hrs is a HUGE ask for a band to be able to pull. It isn't a show then..it is just a list of numbers where you don't play a planned set...you just fire off the numbers. There isn't then a planned thought out set. And from that...you would need a very very able reader of the audience to have any sort of flow in the set. In all my years playing... I've only seen one front person be able to call that.... and that was a function act. Anyway..it doesn't matter...there doesn't seem an appetite for it and I'm glad not to get asked to play more than 2x1hrs.. Our vox can't handle any more anyway.. and I think a sustained period of abusing your voice will impact greatly on your vox and range in a pretty short period of time...( too many don't have traoedn voices or have a regime for lookimg after it) My mates band in Florida have 4 or 5 main vocals for this reason... that also wouldn't work here. It is hard enough for a band to have one.. [/quote] That’s true – I don't think that you can play a structured set for that long. I have some friends who often tour in Holland / Belgium playing 4 hours a night in bars / clubs. They play all sorts of stuff at the end of the night to pad out the final sets and, of course, lots of guitar solos…!

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442600764' post='2868190'] Thing is, in our circuit, most of the bars we play have built up a reputation as a live music venue. So, it makes a big difference when the clientele comes there to hear a live band. Where it can get dicey is when you take a gig at a bar not necessarily known to have bands.Then it's a hit or miss proposition. Normally it's a miss. Blue [/quote] It's pretty much the same over here.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1442568443' post='2867809'] 'Solid' is an acceptable epithet that, to my ears, means 'competent', 'reliable' but not exceptional. There are many stages above 'solid' (virtuoso, monster etc) but, if you achieve 'solid' you are on the first 'proper' rung of the ladder and will work. If you haven't yet acheived 'solid', you are probably a lightweight [/quote] There's plenty of bands where 'solid' will get you the gig but 'virtuoso' or 'monster' will rule you out. After all, you don't need to be Jaco to play in AC/DC - and they are one of the classic rock and roll bands...!

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442567292' post='2867794'] There are a lot of British bands who could do with putting in the time. Many of the guys you see playing in pubs and clubs have no groove and are plainly not listening to each other or playing as a unit. Hopefully if you had to play for 4 hours a night the bad and indifferent players would fall by the way side and the whole music scene would improve. [/quote] I think that you may have a point there BUT the UK's licensing laws and British drinking habits mean that not many landlords would want to have a band playing for 3 or 4 hours. They certainly would not want to pay extra! Also, a landlord is only interested in whether a band can pull in punters and assist him to sell beer! He doesn't care how many people are in the band and will understandably pay the same for a three piece as he will for an equally popular seven piece band...

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442460550' post='2867119'] I joined my band for years ago because it was a job, a paying job. Not wishing well of creativity. Now, while it's a job, it's a very fun job. Blue [/quote] Basically I just want to play – money is a factor but not an overriding one. I certainly wouldn’t want to play in a band where I didn’t like the material and tend to stick to genres that I know that I can be convincing. I’m quite happy to take a lead in running a band but equally, I’m happy to just be a hired hand if the band is good enough. The most fun I ever had in a band was a few years in the backing band of a blues rock guitarist. He did virtually everything and I just turned up and played. It was a good band; we played all over the country, made decent money and had a great laugh. I certainly didn’t feel the need to be running the band or anything…

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442515314' post='2867542'] I'm more impressed or pleased if they pay for tickets... but yes, nice to have people consistently appreciate what you do. Not sure about the second point but my friend moved to Orlando and really can't handle the lenght of the gigs they are asked to do... I think he said 4x45 and 1x hr. I think the money is better, iirc... but then it needs to be 2 and half times better as he plays over 2 and half times as long. He has always loved playing more than 'playing' if you understand what I mean, but he says he is getting too old for that sort of gig. We NEVER play for more than 2 hrs...find we don't need to and the money doesn't really go up even if we did. There are some pub gigs that I wouldn't be interested in tbh... and I'd do my homework about them...even if they are on the 'circuit' but some are quite good, do things properly and geta good crowd. £350 plus is quite achieveable in a decent pub if you get and keep the crowd...but that crowd will come and see music...and so the band is more critical than just being a music night. This is why there is a large difference between bands and what they can ask for. Quite a few of the better pubs are doing doors and security and will pay for semi name bands. Their budget will have to be £1000 plus so obvious the size of the pub matters a LOT. But any decent and above average music pub with a good reputation will get 'offers' from touring acts and some will be able to take those gigs... the deal will typically be an mid week night, tickets and £600 plus fees for solo upwards. The offers to do these sort of gigs come from the acts agents and not the pubs... It largely works, IMO. [/quote] Just goes to show that there are differences in pub gigs in different parts of the UK, yet alone between here and the US. I assume that you are based in a far more affluent part of the country than me, but round here punters would (unfortunately) not be interested in paying on the door for a pub gig, although they might accept a modest hike on the price of a pint. Of course, people will pay to see semi-name acts in a club (usually tributes or genre based acts) but not in a pub. Also, no landlords round here would consider paying £350 for a pub gig – the economics of it would just not be sustainable. But then again that might be because I’m living in a less affluent area. I have certainly been paid that much in pubs in other parts of the country, but that was generally as it was a special event / the fact that the gig was promoted as a non-local band playing. I think that the 2x45 sets plus a 15 minute encore pub gig is more a reaction to UK licensing laws / drinking culture. Certainly gigs in northern Europe follow the American model where bands are expected to play for anything from 2 ½ to over 4 hours. However, they do tend to pay better and bands seem to be more highly valued by bar owners.

Ideally you want guys who can put a set together without needing too much rehearsing...

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442359305' post='2866410'] Good story Pete and your lucky. Sounds like you found a rare and good opportunity. Again, very cool. Most start ups aren't together long enough to see their 1st gig. Blue [/quote] Of course it helps if you're dealing with the right people with a start-up as it does with any band. In music, contacts are everything...

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442337116' post='2866182'] Like Sprocket mentioned above, "Were All Different". When I was looking for a band 4 years ago,I knew exactly what I was looking for. I had no interest in originals or start up projects. I'm not picky about the genre however I restricted my search to established bands (meaning bands that had at least a couple of years up and running with the original core members) with a history of consistent paying gigs as well as future gigs on the books. We call this a "turn key" opportunity. I was lucky and found that band. Not easy, I basically followed them around and let them know I was looking and was interested. Turned out at some point their bass player was going in a different direction. After auditioning about 3 times , I was offered the job. They all turned out to be cool, knowledgeable, fair and trustworthy people. 4 years later I'm still with them and couldn't be happier. Thing is, if the band folded I would be sunk. In my area finding bands that are into making money and gigging a lot, basically don't exist. All most every ad for bass players has the phrase [i]" We only do this for fun and gig once every couple of months."[/i] Blue [/quote] Personally I wouldn’t be so against doing a start-up band. About 18 months ago I was asked to join an established local rock covers band that gets plenty of local gigs. Even though they’re an OK band, I wasn’t particularly bothered and passed. Instead I accepted an invitation to join a start-up band (doing broadly similar stuff) with a couple of guys who I knew could play. It took a bit of time to get off the ground but we were gigging about 6 months later and doing far better than the other band that I could have joined. Getting gigs was no problem as me and the guitarist were gigging regularly in other bands and I could have a big say in the material and impose my own view on playing standards etc, which I probably could not have dome coming in as the new guy in an established band. If you have got the right people involved and you have some contacts, a start-up band can be just as feasible as an established one and you will have more opportunities to ensure that things are done how you want them to be…