Rick's Fine '52

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348142928' post='1809900'] The black issue is in contrast to the situation now where (apparently) the most popular colours in terms of sales are black and sunburst. [/quote] Don't get me wrong, it's an era thing. 70's black precisions are desirable, maybe because lots of famous players in the 70's used them, but pre-CBS wise, it's just a no-go. It is strange, but thats the way it is. Nowadays, I'm sure black is as common as anything, you certainly see alot around, either being played, or for sale etc. Its just a pre-CBS vintage thingy.

[font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]OK, I’ve been after a ’66 Slab Precision for some time now, and despite my best efforts, it’s never materialised. I’ve made (assembled/modded) a few replica vintage basses before, which some of you may have seen on here, and decided, a couple of years ago now, to make a replica slab, after picking up an original pickguard some time back. The project was put on hold, for many reasons, not least, finding a maple neck C shape neck. I resurrected the Project around April this year, and obtained many of the parts needed. The project then stopped again, after I became aware of a real slab, and hoped to secure that, alas, this week, that will no longer happen. This is what I’ll be building;[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]Every day, I will add to this post, showing the components and parts I’ve obtained. I’ve tried to source as many genuine ’66 parts as possible for the Project.[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]This is a list of known examples still around today, as contained within Baz Matthews book;[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]I’ve decided, as there are two sequential numbers contained in the list, that my replica, is going to be F131285, with a neck date of April ’66, and pot codes of 6609. Please note that this is for my benefit only, as a fan/collector, I like the challenge of replicating as best I can. If the guitar gets sold, it will clearly marked as a replica. In any case, it’s pretty obvious, and wouldn’t fool anyone![/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]So, onto the Project. I was only going to take on this project, if I could get a proper C profile, maple-cap neck, with a vintage correct truss rod detail, and they are not easy to source. After much trawling, I found that the Mexican Roger Waters signature bass has one of these. I purchased one of these, and sold off the rest of the bass, and just kept the bear neck. Here’s the pics;[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]The neck was then completely stripped to the wood, frets dressed (They were quite high, and sharp, not the best quality), and are now low and smooth; fingerboard edges rolled, the whole neck was given an amber nitro tint, lightly aged, and a ’66 decal applied. An original ’65 string tree was added, along with the 5 APR 66 C neck stamp (As close as I could get anyway). The only thing left to do, are the tuner relief holes in the back of the headstock, which I’ve not been brave enough to attempt….yet, here’s the finished neck pics;[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][url="http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/rosesguitar_2007/Slab/neckafter6_zpsa4b3457f.jpg"]http://i208.photobuc...zpsa4b3457f.jpg[/url][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][url="http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/rosesguitar_2007/Slab/neckafter5_zpsc0392015.jpg"]http://i208.photobuc...zpsc0392015.jpg[/url][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000][url="http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb290/rosesguitar_2007/Slab/neckafter7_zpsbb819b97.jpg"]http://i208.photobuc...zpsbb819b97.jpg[/url][/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000](The last 3 pics wouldn't load on??, so please click on the 3 links above)[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]More progress and pics to follow tomorrow, where I’ll be adding pics of the pickguard, shield, neckplate, bridge, and pots.[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]Any comments, advice would be appreciated.[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]Thanks for looking[/color][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=3][color=#000000]Rick[/color][/size][/font]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348133976' post='1809679'] What do you base this comment on??!! Black is an extremeley rare colour in the Pre CBS period, so much so that you hardly ever see them. I would agree that a Black P or Jazz wouldn't be as desirable as Shoreline Gold or Sonic Blue, they are sought after, and just as rare. I can think of only one Black pre CBS bass for sale in the world right now - at New Kings Road - and I'm sure many collectors wopuld give their eye-teeth for it. Johnny [/quote] The comment is based on years of collecting specifically Fender Basses, and interaction, communication etc with fellow collectors. Everyone I know, or have come across, agree that black basses, are not desirable, compared with other finishes. Especially the matched headstock ones. They are a rare custom colour, no doubting that, which i said, just not desirable in basses, guitars are very different though, black strats are sought after, possibly down to a certain Mr Clapton? I even know collectors who only collect custom colours, and they dont have black ones, as they say they'd rather keep the money for a different one. There's a guy in the US who has been trying to sell a black '68 telecaster bass for years, no-one wants it, because it's odd, yes it's rare, but it's just not 'right'. I don't make these rules or trends, this is just how it is. Ask anyone, I'm pretty certain you'd get a similar response. Thats just the way it is. Simlar thing with Ricks, burgundyglo is probably the rarer of the standard range of colours, but not very desirable, an acquired taste if you like. For every person who loves it, there'll be 50 who don't, whereas a mapleglo or fireglo is the other way round.

[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1348097857' post='1809430'] Don't hold your breath waiting for RIC to "reissue" or take up production again of the model. Mr. JH doesn't seem to care for them, as he has compared the appearance of the upper bout to a certain active appendage of [i]Equus asinus,[/i] with the reference taking the vernacular tone in the present participle tense. [/quote] Yes, I've seen letters from JH saying that whilst he appreciates a certain demand for many of their instruments, including the 4005, he doesnt expect it to make production again. Shame, but nevermind.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1348078691' post='1809037'] I always preferred the slash hole anyway TBH..... [/quote] Me too, I was just curious as to this model, as I hadnt seen it before.

[quote name='Pow_22' timestamp='1348082737' post='1809117'] Theres a 4005 for sale over on Andy Baxter bass at the moment, my dream bass but beyong my current price range [/quote] I know, thats what prompted my research again in the first place, I think its a good price, and am considering it, I'm searching around to see what else is out there, when i stumbled across the f-hole version.

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1348063614' post='1808723'] Couldn't you take a slash hole and then carve it into an f-hole? Or would that change the sound ... [/quote] You could probably do the other way round, but the f-hole is much slimmer i think. I'm sure you wouldnt want to start butchering a £7k+ bass anyway!!

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348060167' post='1808642'] So, don't be afraid to make a [b][i]very[/i][/b] cheeky offer! [/quote] Oh, I would definitely advise this. I know most of the vintage dealers, and they know when i call about something, it will start with a very silly offer, normally a sensible meet in the middle is found. remember, with the rarer stuff, particularly stuff that hasnt shown itself for a while, there's no real benchmark, and I dont begrudge dealers starting off punting things highly, they also know this, so start silly, and go from there. Ultimately, they hold the cards, and will keep saying no until, unsurprisingly, they say yes, which is hopefully at a point the buyer is also happy with. I also find a pile of cash on their counter in elastic bands can also be a very large pursuader, especially on a Friday lunchtime after they've had a sh*t week of sales!! Play them at their own game! And it [i]is[/i] a buyers market out there at the moment.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1348044229' post='1808363'] I think the days of snaffling pre-1975 bargains are over. I did OK with my current crop, and past purchases, as I bought them at very reasonable prices. We've seen the prices of early 80's buyout-era basses rise a fair bit... my guess is the longhorns will be the next to bump up a bit. That said, vintage stuff holds its' value better then most band-new basses. New car syndrome, innit. If you want to buy a bass as an investment, be prepared to hang on to it for a VERY long time. [/quote] Vintage stuff still appreciates though. I bought my '58 gold guard P, from a very famous denmark street dealer (The good one), in 2003, and its advertised price was £2500, i traded another vintage bass for it, but that was the price, the full on, ticket price in the most expensive vintage guitar street in the UK, and it was £2500!, i remember it was the going rate at the time, and i had it, because it was the first one i'd ever seen for sale in the UK, since I'd started collecting, so snapped it up. Its now worth upwards of 3x that. A boutique bass bought in 2003 certainly wouldnt be. My point is, they climb steadily, you dont have to wait yonks, obviosuly the longer you wait, the more it would appreciate, but 5 years would see you make money for sure, and have had 5 years owning and playing a great bass. certainly better than money in the bank at 0% interest, and what fun is that.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1348045320' post='1808378'] Yeah. Now that everyone has internet access it's dead easy to do a quick google search to see that the bass that languished in Grandad's attic for decades actually has a value... and put yourself in touch with buyers. The days of turning up bargains in car boot sales and house-clearance shops would appear to have gone. Most of the really collectable instruments have already found homes. [/quote] I think there's a a lot of truth in this, the internet certainly makes things alot more accessible to the wider public. I remember scouring music press mags years ago, and guitar mags, you'd see a great private ad for something spectacular, phone them up, only to find he'd sold it the first day of the mag going to print (Or even before, to someone who worked at the mag, which was often the case!), and had received 50 calls since. It was very much a case of first come first served in those days, now its a nice 10 day auction, for the whole world to see, very different game indeed. You can still find them though. last year I bought a '66 Vox Foundation Head and 2x15 matched cab, with the chrome head stand, it was on gumtree for £250, i bought, paid and collected it the same day, sold it a week later, as i didnt have the space to keep it, for £1100. I'm sure many of us still have recent stories like that (Another thread please! ), but just to say, it can happen, but yes, these opportunities are few and far between.

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1348046538' post='1808408'] . [/quote] BTW, I love that colour with the white guard, beautiful. Is it the same colour under the guard, or is it a very aged Oly white?

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1348046538' post='1808408'] I'm interested to read what Rick says about the '82' Fullertons. I have an 84 precision that would go along with the strat in the picture. I have another precision which is an 83. They are the USA standard offering of the time. I like them for the looks but also for the quality of the instrument. The 82-85 standard series also seemed to me to have their own character as opposed to being a reissue of a former model. It would be nice to think that they will rise in value but I bought them as playing instruments and not as investments. [/quote] I think the Fullertons have more appeal, because they are pretty good reissues of vintage instruments, and folk will always be lured to vintage gear. If the pre-CBS stuff is out of price range, but you still want something that is great to look at, play, and will hold value, or most likely increase, then the Fullertons are what people will, and are, naturally turning to, hence the price rise. The Dan Smith era '82+ standard range, are still great guitars, but the headstock decal style alone, puts many off, as the masses, i beleive, prefer the vintage look. They are great playing guitars though, and probably a very good buy at the price.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348007496' post='1808181'] I guess a good player is more likely to have been played and thus may be more battered than a case queen that had sat there because owners didn't like it as a player - or do collectors just park them for decades to look at or not as the case may be? [/quote] Commonly, a good player will show signs of such wear, but there are exceptions, there are examples of great playing instruments, that have genuinly been unplayed , or untouched for lots of reasons. Often players bought instruments in the 50's or 60's because they were in bands, then after the bands fell apart after a couple of years, the guitars were resigned to closets etc (Hence the term), and genuinly untouched. Its only many years later when people re-find these things, that they appear on the market. These fine condition specimins are therefore highly sought after. As an example, my Paisley telecaster bass was bought by someone who only played it for around 6 months, it then went out of fashion very quickly, and was left in a cupboard for over 40 years, its almost mint, it does happen, although not as often as we'd all like! Most collectors, me included, dont wrap instruments in cotton wool, and store them away (There are of course exceptions). I play all mine, although some are treated more carefully than others, for valid reasons. For example, the bakelite pickguard on my '52 is so easily marked, even with fingers and palms, and because of its condition, if this deteriorated too much, it would affect its value etc, so one must be sensible. It does get played though, but it is kept in a good case, and not in the rack with some of my others. All my other P's show wear, and are played regularly, without too much concern, although I have other basses that are more suited to the Dog & Duck! Happy to help where/when I can mate.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1347982785' post='1807640'] do you think it will go beyond there? I mean everything since fullerton stuff kinda blurs into one as they split production across mexico and the states and japan- I guess the custom shop stuff will hold it's value [/quote] Custom Shop relics for example have been between £1200 and £1600 for 10 years now, and as they are still being made, and to the same specs as the ones in say 2000, it's unlikely to change. The Cunetto Relics are the only ones that differ, they can easily fetch double that, as they were made differently, quite limited, and only made for a brief period, so they are relatively exclusive. Anything with a level of exclusivity, [i]and[/i] renowned quality, should increase in value, as history has, and does tell us. Apart from the early '82 JV's, I can't see other Jap, Mex or US reissues ever being sought after, or increasing in value, as there was never great attention to detail, quality, or anything different with those, than the ones still made today. If they are good examples, they should hold value, although there are always dozens for sale at any one time, so that will keep the prices stable.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1347980658' post='1807595'] Next stop the early 80's fullerton stuff?? [/quote] Already happening, really nice examples of '82 Fullertons (Guitars more than basses, but they will follow), with V00 serials, and all the case candy, in custom colours, are already being marketed at $4000, well over double what they were two years ago even! Thats because the majority can no longer afford the pre-CBS stuff, the same as with 70's stuff, as you said earlier. The added bonus, is that the Fullertons (Earluy ones) are also great guitars, not just collectors pieces. (Not as good as the '82 JV's eh Luke, but still good!) Here's a fine one, $3800 anyone? [url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-fullerton-62-reissue-str-1982-reissue-1"]http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-fullerton-62-reissue-str-1982-reissue-1[/url]

Thanks guys, this is why i love basschat!, just been having a scan of those links, not as scarce as I first thought then, although still rare obviously, as they all are! Problem now, is that will a normal slash hole 4005 be good enough!! D'oh!

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1347973969' post='1807425'] Forget about years, colours, finishes or even the level of cosmetic damage. Just play a few and buy the one that plays and sounds good and isn't priced at a ridiculous value. When it comes to pre CBS Fenders there is a lot of stories about good years and finishes, but that won't guarantee that an individual bass will actually be any good just because it belongs to a particular time period. My view is that there is no point in buying the most original, mint condition vintage instrument if you gain no real joy in playing it. [/quote] For the most part, I'd agree with this. Every bass should be judged on its merits, I've seen some '63 Jazz's for example that are absolute dogs, so year alone is not an indication on quality, or investment. Having said that, you can generally rely on them to increase in value, but you must have a good one, that will always appeal to players and collectors. All of mine have increased in value since buying, some significantly so. The main things to consider are; Firstly, and most importantly, does it play properly, and does everything function as it should, Truss rod free, with plenty of movement?, wiring and pots crackle free, neck straight, good intonation etc. If all that stuff is OK, then you know it plays, and therefore is fit for its primary function, so huge tick in the box, and then you can move on to the stuff that should be considered, if you are also hoping for investment opportunity, these things include; Originality, particularly finish. Refinished basses will never appreciate at the same rate as original finishes. Most collectors won't touch refinished guitars, so your market, when re-selling, is instantly reduced. On the other hand, by the same token, refin'd guitars are much cheaper in the first place, which can mean you can afford a '62 Jazz, for the same price as a '68 original finish Jazz. Original pickups, pots etc are also vitally important. Basically, the more thats original, the more desirable. If it has original case, this also makes a difference. Years, and colours, is very difficult, as each one should be taken on its individual merits. the [i]general[/i] rule of thumb, is the earlier the better, so, a '60 Jazz will be more valuable than a '62, which will be more valuable than a '64. Slab necks are also far more desirable than veneer necks on Jazzes. Precisions are a bit different, as there were more models available, and each one has a transition period, which brings in different things to different collectors, but you've already said you dont like the pre-57 shape, so that makes it far easier. A gold anodized guard/maple neck is probably the most desirable, and regarded as the ultimate fender bass, the one that Leo finally perfected after the earlier 6 years. A gold guard, with rosewood neck is rarer, but less desirable, as it looks odd for the purists. From there, again, its generally earlier the better. A slab board is better than a veneer board, spaghetti logo's without pat numbers, better than ones with. Transition decals are then cheaper than spaghetti's etc. Colours. Custom colours are rarer than sunbursts, but can be an acquired taste, not everyone likes candy apple red, or lake placid blue, including me. I personally think a Fender bass should be sunburst or blonde, depending on the era, and thats what I buy, others collect [i]only[/i] custom colours! Again, each one on its merits, and of course, whether it's value or not. Also, some custom colours are crazy rare, Teal Green for example, on a jazz is highly prized, and can command serious cash, Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one. In summary, originality, playability, rarity and condition, will dictate the value, and subsequent appreciation, and re-saleability (made up word!), the higher the rating on each of those 4 counts, the better the investment opportunity...in the medium to long term of course, not much doubles over night! Cautionary note, an instrument (or anything), will only be a good investment if you dont pay over the odds in the first place, so make sure its a good opportunity. Todays market is an excellent time to buy, with more choice out there than I've known for a long time (Even if most are in the US, which may be an issue for some buyers). i would also advise you to firstly buy a guitar because it plays and sounds how you want it to, and secondly for the other factors. Don't just buy a guitar because its 'vintage'. Your budget, and only you will know what this is, will dictate what level instrument you will be looking at, whether it's an original '58 Precision, an original '63 Precision, a refinished '64 Jazz etc. Shop around, use gBase as a guide to what prices things are being offered at, and make a judgement. I'd be more than happy to advise on anything you have in mind, and give an objective view. Hope this helps. Rick

Hi, as some of you who know about me will be aware, i've been after a Ricky 4005 for a while now, and whilst trawling t'interweb the other day, I came across this, a 4005, with F-hole, like the Rose Morris guitars, a'la Lennon/Townsend etc. I've never seen, or been able to find since seeing this pic, any reference to this model being made. I've seen the 'standard' 4005, with no binding; the 4005 WB, with binding to the back only, and the 4005 WB, with binding to front & back, and also, the super rare 8 string, wiggly headstock version, but never a Rose Morris version? Anyone seen these before, or have any details? Any help would be appreciated. Ta Rick

[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1347827440' post='1805576'] Just bought this B15N to go with my old AEB Scroll bass. GAS is cured for now (I think) [attachment=118515:DSC05220.JPG] [/quote] Lovely pairing, both on my wants list!

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1347810027' post='1805279'] The first production fretless bass was the Ampeg AUB-1, introduced in 1966. It had a scroll peghead [/quote] I was close!

ET is correct, the first fretless P was 1970. The ampeg baby is an upright, they did 2 fretless basses with scroll headstocks, dont recall the models (From memory; AMB1 & ASB1???) , they are known as the scroll bass and devil bass, one had full depth f-holes, the other had horns, they were available from '66. Not aware of a pre-'66 production mainstream fretless? I'll be looking into the quote later, it's somewhere, but i have alot of fender/bass books, so may take a while!!

Macca wasnt too bad either!! Lead vocals, harmonising, and fairly busy basslines, not easy. I'm awful, as soon as i open my mouth, my right hand just stops... (Theres's a joke in there somewhere I'm sure, but can't be arsed to change the sentence, you know what i mean!)

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347727567' post='1804406'] Not a Fender bass V - it was an undisclosed make of fretless. [/quote] I'll stand corrected if wrong, but it is quite a famous story, which is claimed, by a fender R&D rep, to have damaged the reputation of the Bass V. I'll find the actual story at some point, its quite a famous story, as the original poster stated. Can't imagine JJ having an issue with a fretless, as he was a doghouse player, ewhereas the Bass V, is just a dog to play! I'm off to trawl my many books to find the story......