Bilbo

My point is that those trumpet players and sax players may be full of s*** but they may also have a legitimate aesthetic preference. The eb is a different instrument. Take away the value based idea of better and worse and you are still left with different. If an MD wants a db, then he has a legitimate preference and should make sure he follows his vision (for the record, sometimes a piece is written with an individual PLAYER in mind and the argument is not about whether a DB is the right instrument but which DB player is the right individual for the piece). Whether the db player he books can or cannot also play eb is irrelevant, just as a clarinet player booked for a gig may or may not also play sax. Some are booked because they double whilst, in some cases, the fact that they double is of no concern to the MD. I know some great drummers I will only book as a last resort because they are 'fusion' drummers not 'jazz' drummers. Punters may or may not recognise the difference but to me its chalk and cheese. Same with bass. And if I was asked to recommend a player for a jazz ensemble, I would always recommend a DB. Another great example I can't post here is Al DiMeola's work. If you listen to a cd like Casino (Anthony Jackson on eb) and then listen to his album Soaring Through a Dream (Chip Jackson (no relation) on db), you will hear the difference in overall ensemble sound and the role of the bass within that. The difference is massive. AJ is by far the more technically advanced player but CJ plays the gig to perfection. The decision to feature DB is entirely musical. Pat Metheny is another interesting arranger; it is interesting to see where Steve Rodby uses eb over db throughout the Metheny canon.

There are two arguments going on here, the one about eb vs db and swing and the other about what is tradition and what is not. The latter debate is insulting as this is not about what is 'correct' for jazz. The former discussion is academic. I am of the opinion that db swings 'better' or 'more' or 'more convincingly' that electric most of the time, not all of it (although I certainly have never heard an electric swing better than a db!!). No mention was made of 'tradition'. When I buy a cd with tunes on db and tunes on electric (say a Mike Stern cd), the db tunes swing better, to my ears. I find, increasingly, that my ipod/downloads no longer feature electric players; not because I hate electric players but because the music that I like tends to feature db (I rarely download 'classic' jazz cds older than a few years because I have so much of that stuff and am looking for interesting new stuff). The eb in jazz (in the broadest terms), for me, has become a precursor for superficial histrionics and rarely (not never!!) produces a satisfactory effect.

Or compare these: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzIQYJ0bjFA&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzIQYJ0bjFA&feature=related[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThtaxYc_x-s&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThtaxYc_x-s&feature=related[/url]

I think that ES track would groove a lot harder on double bass but there you are. In fact, that track, to me, illustrates the non-swingingness of the wrong timbre. As does this (which swings a little inspite of the bass sound): [b][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwOWOtW0kn8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwOWOtW0kn8[/url][/b] [b]Or this[/b] [b][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcEKAWZ1Nbk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcEKAWZ1Nbk&feature=related[/url][/b] Play that Gary Willils tune 10 beats per minute faster and it wouldn't swing like it does.

Lovely. Reminds me very much (sonically) of the Keith Jarrett 'Belonging' band. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXpPlBFGG_Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXpPlBFGG_Q[/url]

Yes, I know this track and yes, it swings its tits off. I did say there are few exceptions and this is certainly one of them (I transcribed it once, IIRC). The drums make a massive contribution to the swing; beautifully delicate. Its absolutely delightful and Willis' solo is top drawer. Thanks for remnding me about this one.

No changes again. Learning solos without understanding the underlying harmony is of limted value and produces party tricks rather than rounded musicians. Do you have the chords?

Certainly improving, Mike. My versions still sound like a train wreck.

I never get intimidated by the 'its hard' arguments because people say that about fretless and, whilst there is a nugget of truth in there, all they are really saying is that there is another problem to solve. Thme solution is to solve the problem, not throw in the towel. Milliions of violinists play in tune without frets and millions of sax players play soprano in tune. Why couldn't I? I want to have a go, that's all. Need to sell some kit to pay for one.

I would do the pub. Have been in this situation several times and always honour the first booking. Most of the people I play with feel the same.

Give the drummer charts......

My only advice would be to listen to what everyone else is doing and react to that ideas rather than rely on stock phrases of your own. When jazz musicians create endings for tunes, they often call upon cliches such as the old 'Count Basie' ending etc. But it works best when the ensemble spontaneously creates some organic but logical phrase or hook and, by shared experience, knowledge and a little bit of trust, moulds this into a resolution. I have seen this done beautifully 1,000 times and it always leaves me with a real sense of satisfaction. To prepare, you just need to make sure you are ready to listen to what others are doing and to react creatively to what they present. If you can hear the rhythm of phrases, you won't go far wrong. If you can add harmony and melody to your responses, you will be home and dry forever!

Not heard that term before but I guess it kind of says it all

Swing but not Jazz Glenn Miller's was more of a dance band. It was jazz orientated but most jazz folk consider it lightweight. Like Quo for Hard Rock fans or The Boomtown Rats for Punk.

No problem with that. Its not mine

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1331655016' post='1576663'] I thought jazz was about open minds, experimentation and expanding new horizons. Seems like it's in the same "traditional" rut as all other forms of music. [/quote] You'd like that, wouldn't you? The discussion is about 'swing' in the context of jazz standards. Swing is what it is. Jazz is a much bigger genre than just standards and walking bass lines, although 'swing' plays a massive part is all of it. The concept of 'swing' is a lot more sophistiacetd now and means a lot more than straight walking quarter note bass lines. Jazz is so not in a rut at the moment. Its flourishing massively.

Done

The sound of the left hand on an organ or of Steve Swallow's picked bass are more closely linked to that of the double bass timbre we are discussing, as is the lower end of an ERB which is why they work. A lot of electric players use a sound that is not suitable for swing; Jeff Berlin is most certainly one of them. For the record, there are also plenty of recordings of double bass players that fail to swing because their sound is not in the right sonic space (this was a major problem in the 70s whern an lot of DB players were using pick-ups for the first time and engineers were 'DI-ing' basses without really knowing what to do with the results! The recorded sound using these methods, whilst possibly ok for fusion, was not 'de rigueur' for jazz and led to the Marsalis 'dreaded bass-direct' prejudice).

Sure.... that'll get the fire started...

I know what you mean but I suspect that, if a guitar player or piano player is looking for a jazz aesthetic and, for reasons of technology, has to use a less suitable instrument like a Nord, s/he is even MORE likely to want a DB to kind of 'cover up' for the fact that their guitar/piano sound is less than ideal for the idiom. Re: the threat of doubling and its impact on your progress on your main instrument. I had a similar perspective on my guitar playing and gave it up to 'concentrate' on electric bass but, as time passed, I realised that I already had more technique than I could use musically and that the techniques required to play the instruments competently were not that hard to acquire. What mattered was the music itself and learning about harmony, orchestration, composition etc became more important to me than two handed tapping or chordal bass features. Its probably heresy to say this here but the bass is less important to me than the music. I watch these monster players and there is always a kid in me that goes 'Wow! I wish I coudl do that' but my rational side quickly realigns my thinking and directs me towards composing etc. I saw a video yesterday of the younger Stinnet playing Chick Corea's solo off 'Got A Match'. Not Patitucci's lines but Corea's solo. It was an amazing achievement but utterly futile. That much technique has, for me, become a circus act and a parody of itself. SO I no longer strive for that but for writing the greatest music I possibly can. My technique has suffered and I have less now than I have had in the past but, so far, that hasn't manifested itself on a gig.

We can only control what we can control. We compromise on a massive amount of what we do: how many of us have all of the players we would like, a great sounding room, an attentive audience etc. But there are some pretty basic 'can do's'. A tenor saxophone instead of an alto, a flute on this tune, a flugelhorn on that one. If you want a hollow-body guitar and there is a legitimate musical reason for it, then that's what you should have. An alto flute instead of a concert one. An electric guitar with single coil pick ups not humbuckers? Its all legitimate. Pat Metheny insists his drummers use Zildjan cymbals. Its his call. And, if I want to swing, a double bass..... I can do it on electric (just as a head for flute would probably be OK on sax, or a trumpet part on flugelhorn) but, like everything else, why would I do that if I can do it better on the double bass? And why book an electric if you want a double bass, anymore than you would book a trumpeter instead of a sax player? Compromise is inevitable but why would you if you didn't have to? The 'swing' achieved on electric is ok, its 'good enough' for most things and for certain audiences but, for me, that's all it is; ok, good enough, adequate. It's rarely perfect. Bit of a shallow victory, isn't it? I think there is a tendency amoung electric players who don't play double bass to think that the instruments are all but interchangeable simply because they want them to be. I know because that was my justification for two decades. But the two instruments are different. Electric is better for some genres and DB for others. If you want arco bass, you don't book an electric. If you want slap bass, you don't book a double bass. When you want swing, take my advice, book a double bass and save yourself a lot of the time and frustration I experienced in the past.

I love this instrument. I was jsut reading about Dave Liebman and thought I would love to have a go at playing one. I also like the idea that I could leave it lying around and pick it up for five minutes whenever I was idle, unlike a bass which is less portable and 'available'(DB) or needs 'lectric and amps and stuff (EB). I see them starting at less than £200 on the 'net. Obviously, these are cheap starter instruments not gold plated Yanigasawas (is that how you spell it?) but its not that much money for a punt. Anyone play one?

Timbre.... yes, that's it.