Grangur

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

How big a circuit do you need, and what tonal quality do you want. That would be using a preamp as a buffer, which means you get the sound of your pickups without loading by everything else.

You don't get the signal 'bigger', you get the signal low impedance so you don't get noise or the effects of loading.

Thank you. I'm a simple guy. I've never got into effects, pedals and stuff. Happy to be educated.  I can wire this stuff, to some level. I'd also be delighted to pass this project to anyone else who's better equipped to do it.

Mick and I met the other day after Mick dragged me out of bass-fixing retirement for this interesting beast. 
Here's a link to a similar bass for those who would like to see what we're talking about:
https://reverb.com/item/27705275-1980s-japan-made-kawai-fiib-f2b-alembic-copy-bass-guitar

Mick doesn't have the drop-tuner, but the bass has the potential to look very similar, if given some love and attention. That said, every "scar" is a sign of experience, so not everyone would want it looking so perfect, maybe.

There's come interesting info on the bass on the Kawai page:

https://kawaius.com/technical-support-division/faq/kawai-bass-guitars/

What I'm writing here is, largely, thinking aloud about the possible routes forward we could take on this.

From the info on the Kawai page we can see the original active pups had a number of pre-progammed "tone characters".
So from this we learn that the switches connected to each pup are not for series/parallel switching as I first thought. This also explains why the circuit in the bass also has no tone capacitors on the tone pups.

Considering we don't have these original active pickups and we now have 2 passive pickups, it's fair to say the 3 multi-position pickup selector switches installed on the front are redundant.

Moving forward, we need, therefore, to think of tha bass as wiring from scratch. So we have a few options to consider:

Passive 1

For simplicity the bass could be fitted with thenew 2-wire pups as a passive circuit and connect it in a VVT configuration. I know, it sounds great to think we could wire it with a volume and tone on each pup, but I've never had a lot of success in wiring this way. Although we might think of each volume and tone as a separate circuit, then feeding to the next and on to the jack, strangely electronic circuits don't think this way. What actually happens is both tones affect all the tone.

The negative side to this is we have 7 holes on the front of the body, ignoring the jack socket. VVT would only use 3 of these.  I know Leland Sklar likes his DFA switch, we could install one of these, but having 4 could be a bit OTT.

Passive 2

To the above VVT circuit we could add a series/parallel switch to each of the pickps. This would use 2 more of the 4 redundant holes.

This could be good, i guess, if this is your thing?
What it would call for is for me to attack the wiring provied with each pickup and add a second cable for delivering the connection to the centre connection to the 2 coils, back to the selector switch.

Active 1

Among the goodies Mick supplied to me I have the G201 "preamp". Yes it has a battery clip, but there is no adustment. So no need for the holes in the body.

Being a cynical person I'm also wondering what tonal quality the small circuit in the package will bring. What will it do, other than make the signal bigger?

Do we need it "bigger" or will the 2, 2-coil humbucker pickups give all the "big" we need?
What's the advantage of this over simply using the bass amp with the comprehensive controls on the front of that? Maybe use a Pre-amp pedal if that's your thing?

Active 2

Get another pre-amp. Maybe an East U-Retro pre. This would use up a good number of the holes. We would still have 2 holes left, I believe. I guess, in addition to the East amp you could have 2 pickup selector switches.
https://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/East_Preamps_U_Retro.html

Real life use

What Mick also needs to also consider is his own needs/desires. This is a nice bass with some history, but it's not ever going to be "as original". So, Mick, think about what you're going to play. Yes, some folk could be turned on by a massive scope of sounds, but this all costs. If the reality is that your needs will be met with 2 great pups and a VVT, then lets go for it.

Yes, you can have a DFA switch, but we do have another option. Since leaving the world of messing basses I've gone into wood-turning with a lathe. What I could do is turn dark wooden plugs that could be small and knocked into the redundant holes. These could also be tapped back out again if the holes were wanted back in use again.

If it were mine, I'd keep it simple.

On 27/12/2021 at 12:28, RedEarth said:

I did have my fender Ultra set up by Martin and a Sadowsky pre amp fitted. The bass& treble controls do not match or properly or  fit so I’m told by a few people that have had a pre amp fitted ! & when I had a closer look recently the concentric controls stand proud of the body and are a very poor fit ! I was told that the concentric controls that Martin fitted are not correct for this pre amp and should not of been fitted this way ! I’m not happy but I didn’t check closely until recently . 

Surely, aren't the concentric controls are part of the pre-amp? If so, I imagine the knobs and controls will have been supplied by Sadowsky as part of the kit. So, unless you asked them to alter the kit when fitting it, haven't you got what you paid for?

What did The Gallery say when you asked them about it? Surely, you will have asked because it would be rude not to give them opportunity to deal with it in private before you complain in public.

On 28/07/2021 at 09:43, Ricky Rioli said:

 

I get mystified when solo bassists play things like this entirely beyond the 12th fret. No lower than a guitar but with a constricted range and tonal palette, and heavy articulation too.

Fair point, but he owns a bass and knows how to play it. I admire it and I guess, if I could be arsed to buy a classical 6 string, it might sound different. It might sound better, but that it subjective.

13 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

It's impressive playing but I can't help but feel electric bass guitar is not the best instrument for the piece of music. Similar to tapping, once you stop looking at it and just listen, the oul bass isn't too easy on the ears for some styles of solo playing.

I enjoy it. It's like classical guitar, but I prefer the lower register.

Hi all,
This won't be to everyone's taste, but this guy appeared this morning on my Facebook. I think his playing is pretty cool. Some here might enjoy it.

6 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Yes, indeed. 

I suppose the difference is that if it is just a bow, along the grain, then the multiple fixing screws will generally cope with holding it flat.  But a 'wibbly-wobbly-warp' would look wibbly-wobbly however many screws were trying to hold it down   

The problem there is when you do use those screws, the stresses applied by the screws may well cause a split down the grain, unless we're looking at a chunk of wood of a fair thickness: such as that on the one by @Fishman

11 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

^  This. 

And it needs to be a sander-thicknesser, not a planer-thicknesser which is far too harsh for getting down to the 2-3mm you are probably aiming for.

Both woods would be rigid enough and, with wenge and some maples, I don't think splitting is maybe such a big issue...but it might.  And warping can be an issue.  But if you have someone with a planer-thicknesser, then it is worth a try.  If not, then @Grangur 's suggestion of veneering isn't a bad one.   

 

Come to think of it, if the wood was "solid", I doubt warping wouldn't be an issue - that's to say it's a certainty!!

If you're thinking of a scratchplate, I'd suggest a veneer on a thin sheet would be the way to go. You could use MDF, ply or even a normal scratchplate, but if it we "solid" wood it wouldn't be solid for long before it splits and needs replacing.

To answer your original question, of you have a sheet of wood and you want it made thin in this way I'd find someone with a thicknesser machine that will do the whole width all in one go. Doing it with a hand plane would almost certainly end badly.

I would imagine a lot of people start with a bass that is favoured by an idol bass player, or it's simply the "best" they can afford. So they give it a go and get used to the neck. We may then experiment a bit and find a niche type/style of bass and settle with it. The feel of the neck will be something that you get used to. After that isn't it more a question of how may folk find they can easily accomodate different widths and depths or shapes of neck without it bothering them or the differnce in the feel messing up their muscle-memory?

As far as it being "the cards your're dealt" is this finding those who are lead to a starter bass by fate (affordability of the bass, or it was a gift) and never really experimented with anything different?
By definition, aren't most people here ones who do experiment and believe in trying different things? Because the "fate" type guy is probably one who plays in the band that he plays in, never pushes the envelope, just plays the roots on the one bass he has and goes home.

I've never bought a loom from John, cos I can do my own, but I've been here forever and known SO many folk buy from him and sung his praises.  John is an Ace guy. Buy his top-level product with total confidence.

One I had with a really nice slin neck was LTD ESP. Mine was fretless, but they do fretted too... naturally

Here's an exmple. I've not shopped around for prices
ESP LTD B Series B-205SM - Natural Satin | Rich Tone Music

I have a Warwick that needed the same treatment. On mine the neck was twisted and the rod was messed up. So I ordered a new TR and passed the job to a luthier in Stevenage.  It's that long ago I can't recall his name but @TheGreek knows him. 
So, when Mick gets here, he'll no doubt have rude things to say about Warwicks, but he does have his uses. 

The cost of having the work done, not including the rod which I ordered from Warwick, was £100. So I guess it might be £120 now.

4 hours ago, Big Rich said:

UPDATE - The P-Bass has all black hardware and I've decided to strip the bass as I have plans for the parts.  I'm going to stealth up my `Stingray' copy with the black hardware....that'll be another post appearing soon.

WHAT!!!!  NO fixing of the neck!!??!?  Phur!  😮

20 hours ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

+1

Super glue and wood dust will sort this. You might want to build it up in a few layers because it will go very hard and you'll save yourself some sanding....

 

Good point.

The other thing worth mentioning, is to wear a face-mask if sanding wood to create the dust. The dust will be seriously fine and mess with your lungs and that stuff never comes out of your lungs.
I use one of these. It's money very well spent.
GVS Elipse Half Mask Respirator P3 | Reusable Half Masks | Screwfix.com 

Mix Superglue and fine saw dust from a dark coloured wood.

If you want some suitable, and not in a tearing rush let me know.

6 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

The frets are only part of it. He uses a low action, lighter strings and plays gently. Everything works in combination. That's the underlying point of comments on this thread, really. It's simplistic to say that one part of an instrument is responsible for tone or sound. Materials, construction, electronics, string type, action/setup, etc and - most important - the player all combine to produce the end result.

LS is a subtle and more cerebral player. He's pretty much diametrically opposite to someone like Steve Harris (who I also admire, but for different reasons).

Exactly. In most cases I can hear the difference between a bolt-on neck and a neck through. This isn't true in a band setting. That would be stupid to claim, but when played in isolation with no effects. To me the notes from most bolt-ons sound more mushy. The note from a neck-though rings with more clarity. This is even true to some degree with bass with a tight fitting neck/pocket joint. 

This matters to me because I play the bass, on my own in isolation. In a band setting anything goes.

10 minutes ago, itu said:

In the playability (nuances etc.) or the sound? I may be talking about two different things in one sentence here.

you're asking the wong person here 

44 minutes ago, itu said:

Let's put it this way: if you are good enough, you can use mandolin frets. They are not that easy or comfortable to play.

If you or he thinks the fret width is the key to a far better sound, please go ahead. This is like flatwounds are the ultimate, because James J. used them. You probably get my point, do you?

James Jamerson couldn't play like you or me either. We are who we are.  No I don't want mandolin wires either, but LS clearly believes it makes a difference. Can't tell you what that is..  I'll stick with standard wires that come with the bass. I have enough problems with those!

27 minutes ago, ezbass said:

I like thinner frets on a bass, but I’m more interested in Leland’s pickup positions on his Frankenstein P. I’d really like to be able to have a play on that. How there has never been a Fender signature bass recreation of that bass is beyond me, FFS Gibson did one!

Don't forget he also prefers the reversed P split.

The reversal makes sense to me. The Fender way of doing it exaggerates the treble in D & G, andthe bass in E & A

15 minutes ago, Ricky Rioli said:

Is one cause of the perceived difference between maple and rosewood fretboards how securely the wood anchors the frets? One end of the vibrating metal is held by a nice big bit of metal, the other end by a fleshy finger pressing it against a thin strip of metal. Does all fretwire go the same distance into the fretboard? Does harder fretwire make a difference to the crispness of the attack? 

At the other end of the string, what are the factors affecting how well the string is anchored to the body? The softness of the wood, how the bridge is seated into it? (Does G&L's bridge, which has a broad foot that sits in the body, mitigate the effects of using softer woods?) If you seated both the bolt on neck and the bridge into a single piece of steel, what would that do to the vibrancy of the string? And how many 10s of 1,000s of instruments would you have to test in laboratory conditions before you were able to put all these factors into an order of importance?

I'm very happy for absolutely none of these questions to be answered

Leland Sklar has all his basses fitted with mandolin fret wire. So he believes in the difference.

18 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

You don't actually want the wood to resonate, unless you like dead-spots.

If the body wood is soft, it will sap away the high-end frequencies.

If it's covered in 5 mm of finish, that also helps neuter the high-end.

 

Good point. I still maintain my point on the effect, but you're right, of course, it's resistance to movement we're looking for, not flexibility.  Interesting thought about the finish making a difference. So when I buy my cheap bass and rip off the 1.5mm of paint and lacquer. The paint the soft-wood body with 2 thin coats of Halfords best rattle-can, I've potentially wrecked it. 

On 17/04/2021 at 13:57, Killed_by_Death said:

 

In case anyone had wondered, I am positive that the wood can make a difference in the timbre, I've witnessed it myself & I'm damn near tone-deaf, so if I can hear it,,,

Related or Adjacent, the Finish can even make a difference, Poly vs. Lacquer, & I also firmly believe that the less finish there is on there, the better it will sound.

(also derived from my first-hand experience)

I'm still miffed that Geek99 drops in to comment they're no longer following w/o even sharing an opinion or their experience, but to imply they do have experience. Weird!

 

As bass player committed to (or should that be "for") playing Warwicks, I too and convinced the wood has an effect on the sound. I'm not sure the body wood has as much an effect as the neck, because the neck has more chance to resonate than the body, because the neck is thinner, so more inclined to bend.

The type of wood, I believe also has an effect, but it's impossible to prove. The density of the wood, any wood, varies. This isn't variance from tree to tree, but from branch to branch. There too is a variance between wood on the outside sap wood of the trunk to the timber taken near the pith in the centre of the trunk. Then there's the moisture content. This too has an effect. Yes the wood is seasoned, but if you season wood, then put it in a different environment with a different ambient humidity, the wood will absorb moisture. This is why, you need to set the neck up again when the weather changes with the seasons.

This is why you can set up to really "normal" basses with any-type of wood body, straight from the factory won't ever sound the same. So even 2 Fender P Basses, from the factory on the same day, same everything won't ever sound the same. So when you buy your bass, ordering anything without trying is like buying a raffle ticket. You win sometimes, you lose others and no 2 "identical" basses will ever sound the same. Even the same bass will sound different in a different environment.

And when all's said, as @Happy Jack said at the top of this thread, stick these 2 basses in a band on stage and it's a bass thud, nobody in the room cares except you. I only notice because I play on my own in my lounge and I'm anal about the sound. But when I do play in a band, I take the most basic bass I have cos even I won't notice the difference.

PS. my other hobby is woodturning on a lathe. So drying and seasoning wood is something I do.

6 hours ago, LeftyJ said:

Funny thing though: Warwick barely do oil finishes anymore. Most of their satin finishes are now a thin polyurethane lacquer finish, including their necks (!). So "OFC" doesn't really cut it on the recent models if it does indeed mean "Oil Finish Colour".

Agreed. Their Blue oil finish isn't oil at all its a spirit stain and a lacquer.

I hate acronyms too. They are hardly an aide-memoir either. If you can remember the letters you can't recall what they hell they stand for.

On 05/04/2021 at 13:41, TheGreek said:

"Obviously facking crap"???

No, you're confusing them with another make.