51m0n

Just now, Nicko said:

I just want to clarify that your advice isn't falling on deaf ears, but as its a joint purchase and we're already over budget we will have to live with the restrictions - of which I hope we are all aware!

I would advocate saving for longer, it is cheaper in the long run!

Plus with the XR18 you can do a phenomenal show real recording by micin everything properly...

2 minutes ago, Nicko said:

I have explained the limitations to the band, they seem comfortable with it.

For now...

😁

1 minute ago, Nicko said:

I'm sure you're right, but probably because the possibilities are almost endless with the XR18, not because the XR12 is insufficient.  If we went conventional mixer say a Mackie 1202 we'd only get two aux outs.  I really cant see why manufacturers think you need ony two aux sends when you have 12 inputs, but it seems to be standard on 12 channels.  A 16 or 18 channel mixer for a 4 piece one guitar pub band is a little ott, even if you mic the bass drum, the bass and guitarist are DI'd, and and everyone has BVs it would only require 7 inputs. 

Well it's all about monitoring.

If you go IEM, which is almost inevitable once you can because it's so much easier to play well, you will be looking at:

Kick

Snare

OH(s)

Bass

Guitar

Vox X3

9 Mics minimum. 

And if you all go IEM then quite possibly a crowd facing ambience mic to give you some positive feedback in the monitors.

Everyone will need their own separate mix especially with BVs. It is not possible to do this well without that capability. The BVs will be far more pitch accurate with good monitoring.

The cost to do so is not so big. The results are well worth it IME.

We play pubs, and we mic everything. Not all of it goes FOH to s great degree but our sound is always commented on for its quality.

Yes it's a huge ballache to set up, but it's far nicer to play with great sound in your head and great sound out front IME. We play far better for it....

1 minute ago, Nicko said:

I'm intending to use a jack splitter on the aux out if we need more wired monitors, or more likely a wireless IEM wit three headsets (the guitarist and singer are a bit too enthusiastic for wired).  Although the mix will have to be the same for each set of phones on that aux out it's no worse than what we have now.

Nope. This won't work out.

Everyone will want refinements to their mix.

I guarantee that you won't want the same mix as the guitarist in your monitor.

Getting an XR18 means everyone doesn't need the Behringer monitor mix box to do this, saving you a lot of money in the long run I promise...

Yeah you are going to end up frustrated by the xr12 

Really good monitoring is a reason to mic everything. It doesn't mean everything has to go to FOH.

Your guitarist is making a huge huge huge mistake by having a loud amp and not going through the FOH. He will be ruining the mix for some of the punters at every gig with them having either way too much guitar or not nearly enough depending upon where they are in the room. And he's making it harder for himself to hear his parts because he can't make use of monitors to help.

10 hours ago, burno70 said:

That your band mate? Love it.

Yeah baby 🤩🤩🤩

Thanks very much!

An xr18 is good enough to record an EP on. All these tracks were mainly recorded on the xr18, with some percussion overdubs on some other tastier kit. The 4th track is live in a pub no overdubs or editing at all...

https://mistersuperjuice.bandcamp.com/releases

23 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Good luck with that. The guitarist would rather complain about the mix then do it himself

Nah its really easy, it just takes a little while...

You say "here's your monitor mix <insert band member name>"

Band grooves...

They say "I want more <themselves normally>"

You say "Connect like this if you want to change it"

They say "No you do it"

You say "Nope, I've done yours, now I am busy doing <insert one of several bajillion other things you need to do>, if you want to change it the only way to do that is own it matey"

They say "Whinge whinge whinge, grumble grumble"

Repeat at every gig for the next 2 months then it goes quiet because a) they are used to it and b) they really love it.

Set up monitor mixes for everyone.

Then spend time to really teach them how to connect to the device with their phone or tablet so that they can only pink torpedo up their own mix.

Best way to stop the continual "I need more me!" requests...

5 hours ago, GisserD said:

Interesting this should come up. I just got my hands on a FET compressor for this exact reason. Hoping to find some fatness when compared to a tge more sterile sounding m87, empress etc I've tried before it.

Optical is my go to for fat. You can get this big fat sound from optical that others dont give IME.

Horses for courses though, whatever bakes your cake and all that, everyone plays different through different gear and has a different idea of what phatttness is anyway

VCA tend towards very transparent. Control of the attack/release is what makes them more overt (same can be said for any compressor really)

4 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I don’t know enough no! Having spent last night reading up I think I’m getting more of a handle on it. I figure I’ll use the basic compressor to experiment with and learn before using the three band. 

I need to learn this stuff, firstly as it’s a gap in my knowledge and also Compression and amp sims is a large part of why I got the helix. I seem to have a fairly large dynamic range and hit the strings hard at points - what I want is that not to mean My signal is suddenly peaking the desk. The idea (which is stage two) will be using the combination of  amp sim and compressors to change tone as I hit the strings louder so there is a tonally large dynamic range but not a massive volume difference. 

You need a limiter not a compressor.

Common misconception, often put forward by people who know better in the name of keeping it simple, is that a limiter is just a compressor with a high ratio.

This is not actually the entire story.

A Compressor typically effectively measures volume over a space of time, taking the average volume over that time. This isn't some clever thing done by the electronics, so much as a by-product of the circuit design. An optical compressor is the easiest one for people to imagine this happening in, the electrical energy in the signal lights a lamp (literally) the lamp glow is picked up by a light sensitive device (various types exist). This effectively produces resistance the more light hits it, damping down the level going out of the compressor. Clearly this build up of energy in two devices takes some very measurable time - less obviously the resistance rises and falls in a curve, it is not at all linear to the amount of light hitting the light sensitive component. This is why an optical compressor is a useless limiter, not because you couldnt crank up that damping effect to make it near infinity to one, ie a brickwall limiter.

So a limiter (like an 1176) must be super fast. The 1176 is a FET circuit, very very fast (attack times between 20 and 800 micro seconds), also very likely to colour the signal. In the case of the 1176 this colouring is a very nice thing, some engineers have been known to run signal through one without the compression even doing anything.

If you set up a limiter at 20:1, with a very very fast attack (careful, too fast and you will get distortion on the leading edge of the transient) with a  fast release, then lower the threshold to just clip 3dB off the top of the loudest notes (ie halving the transient volume effective) then you will be far better protected against peaking the desk input. 

Of course, if its a decent desk you can instead just turn the gain down a tad and do the limiting/compression there....

7 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

So I’ll still learning about using compression, but what compressors are ppl using best for bass? I’ve found a million and one ways to sound bad, have got some great ok tones on the three band and the studio compressor

https://images.app.goo.gl/EcA4fuSNhyeRpzKr6

8 hours ago, 12stringbassist said:

My drummer would like my bass to have a distinct click to it, to go with his bass drum. He's not going to get that. It's not my style.

Yeah, with my sound engineer head on I'd emphasise that the kick drum and bass should be a team, either one can provide the bottom end or the click that signifies the beginning of a note, but it is rare that you can get both to work the same way without them competing. So if the drummer likes a strong transient click on his kick, dont worry about that with the bass so much (don't try and dial it out, just dont emphasise it at all). Its about both frequency mixing and time domain, that click will be over in a flash, the bass needs to be there when it is to add the oomph to the sound. Obviously too much bass eq isnt needed (especially live where it will quickly muddy everything up in the average pub) just a good strong tone.

If you both have a strong transient you will tend to sound less tight as well because there will often be a slight 'flam' from the two of you, especially with grooves where the bass and drums are pushing and pulling the time feel in opposite directions. IME...

Hasting Seafood and Wine Festival yesterday afternoon. Nice staging, amazing weather, lots of punters, 30 mins to setup (including a full drumkit swap) went rather well actually.

All going swimmingly until shortly into the second track when all signal stopped coming out of the pedalboard. It still had power, just stopped producing signal for the lovely amp to turn into noise. Bit of a head spinner, hit the mute switch on the amp, bypass the fx in the hope that will make noise happen again and joy of joys out comes the noise. Got to say this is the first gig with the EA iAmp Classic, what a ridiculously great sounding amp, and so much oomph, running on about 50% output it was just huge tone. Very hot in the marquee and this amp has no fan, the chassis got warm to the touch, not quite hot, other than that it was fine. Having said all that to make this amp last as long as possible I might invest in a small desk fan to keep airflow over it.

Honestly though the FX issue  threw me for a couple of tracks, moving out of the headspace of playing into the "fix this issue really fast, like right now" headspace really breaks me out of my stride. Still the band were flying, super professional turnarounds, crowd seemed to like it, nice to be on a decent stage, got back into it soon enough. Had a blast all in all

If I enjoyed it more than what have now then yes. But to be honest I wouldn't...

Nope, but the theme from Knight Rider is too much fun 🤩

21 hours ago, HazBeen said:

Interesting thread, some comments more interesting than others. Bottom line to me is just how personal compression is (I firmly believe there is no RIGHT, but there are WRONGS when it comes to compression), that a well done DBX160 based comp is a great tool (my personal favourite, who needs a Urei :)..) and that sound engineers generally suck

Yep, once you get all the way to being able to predict how a specific compressor will sound given a certain input source, try one with a completely different circuit. Similar settings will sound completely different. Go through this enough and you start to get a feel for the compressor most likely to suit the sound in your head.

A VCA compressor (like the Becos) is a superb place to start because its a bit of a toolbox, tends to be capable of very transparent compression but has enough parameters to get a lot of more overt compression effects working.

In contrast an optical compressor tends to be a bit of a one trick pony, its all about the attack release curve and how that can make your bass sound.

A FET compressor, is really a limiter type circuit, FETs are super super fast.

A real tube (vari-mu) compressor tends toward a mix between an optical and a VCA. And are hens teeth in the pedal world (Compressore being the only one I have ever heard of).

If you want to have a go at all of these on the cheap your best bet IMO is download Reaper, load in a piece of music with no bass, put down a bass line, and play with Reacomp, its about the most full featured compressor I have found (you can change the duration of time it measures for RMS level ffs!!!!) that also happens to be free. This way you also get to concentrate on what the hell the compression is doing rather than playing anything into a compressor and fiddling with the knobs.

Get far enough down that route and you can cover off parallel compression (New York compression), side chaining, filtered compression, and with ReaXcomp even multiband compression. For free. Do the chaps at Reaper a favour and buy a license for $60 dollars, they've saved you thousands of pounds in buying kit to allow you to learn how to use something well when you get it. Tell them I sent you

7 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Ah so if he can't hear a difference he's useless. 

Must have been a witch if she floats eh? 😂

If he can't hear the difference he's not much of an engineer. Of course he may have simply slapped a limiter on your channel  so that unwanted mahoosive spikes don't wreck his drivers. This he wont hear because its not on without the peak hitting the limiter.

Just now, Al Krow said:

Oh just the little compressors we have on our pedal boards vs the more sophisticated compression available to a sound engineer e.g. in a recording studio or with a decent FOH sound system.

Well I am not sure I can agree there.

Becos Stella, Empress, Compressore, Retrospec Squeezebox, Ovnilabs Smoothie, FloorQ, Cali 76 are all really great and very full featured compressors. What stands apart in a rack/plug in compressor normally is monitoring. However if you want have a look at an 1176 or La2a, the common holy grails of rack comps and they are not as full featured (no wet/dry mix, less ratio options, no low pass filter etc etc), but have other things that set them apart, higher voltage circuitry, superb preamp stages, massive meters) and because they live in a studio all that other stuff (wet/dry, low pass, saturation, even more monitoring) can be produced via other tools in parallel or series.

If you go for a one knob no metering comp on your board though then you are not doing compression right IMO. Unless you have years and years and years of experience with how compressors sound/feel

Just now, Al Krow said:

Actually I must ask the sound engineer at one of our clubs to have the compression engaged on and then turn off (or vice versa) mid way through a track and see if he can hear any difference in a band mix through the FOH from the back of the room - and I'll have a listen through the monitors (although much more difficult to hear any nuances through those in my experience).

If he is any use at all of course he can hear the difference within the mix...

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Afraid that sounds completely contradictory to me: if you can't hear pedal board compression at home you're not going to hear it over a drummer with ear plugs in!

I'm perfectly happy to let the sound engineers sort out live use compression, for now.

What do you mean by pedal board compression?

Compression is just a way to manage your waveform in either a very microscopic or macroscopic way (settings dependent). Where you apply that change to your signal in the complete chain from string to ear is irrelevant. So an old school P bass damper is actually doing a form of mechanical compression on the string itself, at the other end of the chain, play as loud as my band does and anyone in the front row are having their hearing compress the signal.

What I hope to guide you towards is that a compressor can change not only the average level (the common conception of compression) but more importantly (in a real life mix situation) the ease of perception of different parts of your bass notes by controlling the envelope of the note in comparison to other instruments in the mix.

A point to note though is that given that at high volume your ear is also compressing by its very nature, this will change how you (and your audience) perceive what your compressor is actually doing to the signal. You need to appreciate that you may need to change your compressor settings for louder environments to achieve the desired effect when the SPL causes ear compression as well.

Most importantly these are anything but super subtle changes when heard in the context of a mix, but are often very hard to hear not in a mix. Because your ears/brain perception of volume is the way it is...

So Al here's some home learning for you.

Set up your Becos with a hard knee, 4:1 ratio, 35m/s attack time, 90m/s release time. Bring the threshold down until you are getting between 3dB and 6dB GR. Play with the attack until you like the sound. Use the output make up gain to equalise the volume with and without the compression on.

Record this along with a track.

Now try a soft knee, 1.5:1 ratio, 35m/s attack, 90m/s release. Bring the threshold down until you are getting 3dB and 6dB of GR. Again play with the attack a tad to get it just how you like the sound. Use the output make up gain to equalise the volume with and without the compression on.

Record this along with the same track.

Compare the two in the mix, check out the waveforms, and discuss....

On top of which when doing this research/learning initially dont be playing too loud, as your ears will behave differently at volume.

On 27/08/2019 at 13:57, Al Krow said:

Becos Stella is gonna be home board only for me for a while matey, while I get up to speed on it. Believe me, if I can't learn to hear nuances of bass tone from compression when it's just me, there is no way on God's earth I'm going to be able to hear any pedal board compression differences in a full band mix with ear plugs in. But that particular long held viewpoint from me, is not news!

I have said it before, and I will reiterate it here again, compression is very hard to hear because our ears are designed to cope with huge volume variances.

The only way to hear compression in is a mix.

Rather than listening to your bass at home on its own and struggling with the compressor always always play along to a track, preferrably with no bass in it, and play with the compressor in this situation to learn what it is really doing.

This is paramount. Seriously...

On 27/08/2019 at 13:28, Al Krow said:

Thanks fella.

Was going to ask you whether the fact that I seem to be marginally preferring a hard knee to a soft knee is just 'in my head' or whether there is actually a good basis for this - maybe something as simple as it being a more clear cut impact, particularly at the low compression ratios I'm using?

They sound different, and they 'feel' different. Typically a hard knee has a more overt effect on the sound so you tend to hear the change more obviously. If you are looking to hear a tonal change rather than transparently change things the hard knee is almost always the right option.