Austin7

[quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1327662691' post='1514867'] Isn't it [i]zeitgeist[/i]? We need "bits of paper" for everything these days. While there are some that don't give a stuff about grades so long as you can play there are others with whom you won't get a look-in unless you can flash the "relevant" qualification. [/quote] I agree. People are made to jump through hoops now more than ever.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327532793' post='1513142'] So should musicians should be 'quantifiable'? Why do so many 'musicians' seem to WANT to be 'quantifiable'? [/quote] I can't say that I know why so many musicians want to be quantifiable, although it does appear to be somewhat of a trend. Personally, I refuse to bow to the bitch goddess of quantification.

[quote name='skampino' timestamp='1327017207' post='1505436'] How is he proficient if he hasn't got the basic and most important element nailed? It's his job to dictate the tempo You have to be truthful and tell him. Record a song and play it back using a bpm counter to demonstrate. If after using a metronome it doesn't improve; find a replacement drummer. You cannot compromise the band's performance for one person even if they are a friend. [/quote] +1

When it comes to music, it's doubtful there is anything I enjoy as much as listening to great drumming. It's rare to find, but when it is found, it's like appreciating great art. I do like listening to guitar, but eventually that bores me, except for Hendrix. Needless to say, I also enjoy listening to bass very much. Inevitably, though, if the bass playing is spectacular, I end up comparing myself to that, and I think that's not particularly a good thing to do. I would definitely enjoy listening to bass more if I didn't do that.

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326754048' post='1501669'] I used to think the same... i spent years playing bass with songwriting guitarists who had bugger all sense of timing and i learnt to 'read' their timing shifts so they felt happy... Problem was, I was holding [b]them[/b] up but the audience were getting the ragged timing from both of us. The moment i started to practise with a metronome and (with gritted teeth...literally) held my timing the guitarists started noticing they were going out...And the reason was,....THEIR timing sucked. It's not anyone's job to move from the beat to follow a band member with poor timing...Lay the law down...If they can't hack it, they get better with a metronome, or they get another job. the second you start to shift to 'stay with' anyone else, you've lost, the rest of the band have lost, and the audience stay at home... in fact, i think the ONLY way you can play with other musicians is if your timing is impeccable...And that goes for everyone...So the best way to get that precise...Is with a metronome... [/quote] Impeccable timing for all the musicians involved; I agree. The way you put it reminds me very much of the drummer down the street I used to be in a band with.

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1326752549' post='1501643'] Thanks...But it's a good job I've got my flame-proof pants on though! Seriously though, I think there are three problems with drummers. the first is that they all aspire to giant kits so they can play like Niel Peart (Rush)...And you need to be as good as him to make a big kit work, secondly, every guy who wants to be in a band to get laid and can tap a glass with his Bic lighter in the pub thinks being a drummer is the easy route to multitudes of panty hampsters...and a full-on drum kit is one of the hardest instruments to master.... ...and thirdly, seriously, how many drummers actually practice... I'll tell you...The ones who can keep time...Because there are very few places you can set a big kit up and go there daily for an hour or so...the guys that have a kit set up are the ones who are adequate to brilliant... i do an hour a day on 'phones, with a metronome and I suspect most serious muso's do that or more....I certainly couldn't keep properly good time if I just played once a week...I know guys who could, but I have to work at it... And people think I have good timing...... [/quote] At least a person doesn't need to put on a combat helmet and full battle gear to post here, though. Earlier today, I was posting on a bass message board I had been posting on since 2005. Suddenly, I reached my breaking point. It was the last straw for me and one obnoxious, totally unnecessary response too many for me. So, it was goodbye to the bass message board whose abbreviation sounds like a lung disease. If flame-proof pants are necessary here, that still seems much better than the alternative.

^ Excellent post

[quote name='Davo-London' timestamp='1326665767' post='1500304'] A lot of negativity here in this post. I'm a drummer and basically you go through stages of learning. Firstly you learn basic grooves and then try a fill and lose the timing. Then there's the thinking you're better than you are as you can play along to any track. Then you record yourself and realise there's a long long road ahead of you. Then you play with other musicians and realise this is a lot trickier than you thought. Then you start to get the feel of some track and someone says you're playing it too slow or vice versa. And then you learn to practice with a click track. And you get proficient at that. But this doesn't help you play with live musicians of varying ability. And so it goes on. Truly there is no substitute for putting in the years of playing. I've been playing 6-7 years and I've pretty well done all of the above. I've been a bass player for 35 years and I find the drums far more difficult to master. You can become a competent bassist in a few years but to become a quality drummer takes longer IMHO. The responsibility of the drummer is greater too. Setting and keeping the tempo spot-on is genuinely difficult. The hardest songs are the slowest. Keeping accurate tempo at 60 bpm or even 55 bpm for a remark you made by Weather Report is truly mind numbingly hard. So folks, there's a lot of superior beings on this forum doing a lot of drummer-bashing. Try it yourself if you think it's easy. I'm telling you from the heart it isn't. There is so much to learn. So, I always have time for musicians that practice and are serious about there instrument as you know in time they will probably get there. If they don't practice then I lose interest. That's my arbiter. Peace Davo [/quote] There may be justification for the negativity. I was in a band for many years. I took a very long break and got involved again. In both instances, it was drummers that were the problems. I could give countless examples of things that happened. Drummers quitting for no reason, drummers having a problem with meter, not showing up for practices, wanting to get paid more than the other band members, etc. Does this mean drummers are not important? Definitely not. Drumming is the foundation of the music. No matter how good the other members of the band are, if the drums don't sound good, you're screwed. This is especially important for recordings, in my opinion. Right now I'm observing a situation in which a close friend who is a guitarist is having to go through similar drummer problems. The guitarist is very talented and so is the bassist. They want a 3-piece, but simply can't find a drummer who will pull his weight. They are so talented that I know eventually they'll find someone, but the wait is getting to be quite draining. I don't look at this as superiority at all. That isn't the issue. It wasn't the issue for me and it isn't the issue for my friend's band. In fact, they're humble people who are very serious about music. As a bit of clarification, I might add that all in all the bands I've been in, we were always able to find a way to solve our drummer problems even if they were numerous. In my friend's case, however, I have truly marveled at how bad some of the drummer problems have been that they've had. The point is there is a difference between actually being anti-drummer and being weary from suffering through so many problems with drummers.

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1326401965' post='1496876'] Better yet is to find that rare drummer that can provide the steady, reliable metronome when required, but can also deliberately be flexible with the tempo and communicate what's going on at the time. E.G. Wind Cries Mary by Jimi H, with fluctuating tempo for 'feel'. [media]http://youtu.be/DaKHSeLErMg[/media] [/quote] True enough, the song isn't the hardest in the world. Nevertheless, Jimi brought "The Wind Cries Mary" into the studio; Mitch and Noel had 20 minutes to learn AND record the song.

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1326200432' post='1493639'] Played it before and IMO it sucks, dude. Total "showbiz", about as rock and roll as a tin of Farrow And Ball paint. What's with all the balloons and sh*t at the end of the video? DLR looks like he should be presenting on QVC. [/quote] LOL @ QVC comment.

[quote name='Stag' timestamp='1326016383' post='1490932'] Ive got a '72 Triumph and its a splendid bass. More controls than anyone actually needs, unique (particularly for the time) features like lo/hi output mode... Pase in/out selector etc. With the right EQ set up on the bass alone you can get a Precision-y sound, a middy sound, the Gibson Mud Sound... lots of options to tailor your tone. Of course, even though Gibson made these... everyone still bought Fenders! [/quote] Well, not quite everyone.

^ The only Gibson I own is a 1964 EB-O. That's probably Gibson's worst bass. So if I like it, it stands to reason I'll like most other Gibsons. As for sound, I really like the EB-2 or even EB-3. If I had more money, I'd buy more Gibsons. But I got the EB-O at a bargain. After all, this topic started as a discussion of how cheap EB-O basses are. I haven't heard one, but the Gibson bass in the link at the bottom is a new one I'd be interested in. By the way, my EB-O has been played at many gigs and I've never had any problems with the headstock and have never had a neck dive problem with it, either. [url="http://www.musiciansfriend.com/bass/gibson-limited-run-les-paul-junior-dc-eb11-electric-bass-guitar/h71164000001000"]http://www.musicians...h71164000001000[/url]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1325766497' post='1487238'] You say that like it's a bad thing. [/quote] Gibson basses are actually my favorite. For quite some time, I couldn't even tolerate Fender. A lot of this had to do with the fact that many years ago I had no choice but to use a Fender Precision at a gig. I didn't like it at all; I especially didn't like the neck which seemed really cumbersome to me. In recent years, I've come to like Fender better, but still prefer the deep, rich sound of a Gibson bass. Nevertheless, I see no reason to sugar-coat things. Gibson does have problems and I feel they view their basses as secondary to their guitars. The quality control that I mentioned also seems to be a big problem. In addition, although I do actually like the "muddy" sound even of EB-O basses, I recognize that many others don't. I think Gibson bass players will always be in a minority. Of course, that's fine with me. I just play what I like to play and like what I like rather than trying to win any popularity contests. Based on my record, though, it's highly likely that Gibson basses will always be my first choice.

[quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1325722435' post='1486812'] Hard to grasp. How can Gibson make some beautiful guitars like the Les Paul ( Iv'e tried some custom shop jobs, play like heaven and immense build quality) yet the basses....? It's like they have no passion for bass. A token gesture? [/quote] I don't know what their reasons are, but it does appear they have little interest in even trying to sell basses in mass quantities like, for example, the way Fender does.

[quote name='Legion' timestamp='1325706755' post='1486496'] I bought an SG supreme not too long ago - done remotely via a shop. Hated it immediately and sent it back the same day (didn't even have to explain it to the girlfriend as she never even saw it!) Currently if I want that huge sound I just solo my neck position darkstar on the decade. Heaven. Pity really, I wanted to like the Gibson but the balance was awful, the sound terrible and I found even the neck profile bad as well. Maybe they're an acquired taste.....like jazz. Cue Bilbo [/quote] I've never played an SG, but from what I've heard about them they supposedly sound more like a Thunderbird than an EB-O or EB-3. I'd say the similarity between an SG and EB-O/EB-3 is mostly in the looks. Also, from what I've been able to gather, quality control for new Gibson basses is not particularly good. It doesn't surprise me if someone gets one and says it sounds terrible. On the other hand, the next one just like it may be fine.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1325701512' post='1486374'] Could you then please point us in the direction of a good one that is as friendly, interesting and musically diverse as BassChat? [/quote] It's unlikely you'll find any music forum as friendly, interesting, and musically diverse as BassChat. I've never seen another one that even comes close.

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1325667046' post='1485729'] Very true...I stand corrected! Spot on! [/quote] I think it's easy to get the names of the EB basses mixed up. I've even seen Jack Bruce get the names of EB-O, EB-1, and EB-3 mixed up in an interview. Actually, I think what he did--if I remember correctly--is refer to his EB-1 as an EB-O. He may have correctly referred to his old bass with Cream as an EB-3.

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1325610406' post='1485160'] I used an EBO ('68) on a recording for an artist a few years back. It belonged to the studio and they told me that they picked it up for £400. It was in pretty good nick and I was amazed it was valued that low. Considering that two iconic players in the 60's used them (Jack Bruce and Felix Pappalardi) you would think they would have more apeal? That said, not my cup of tea at all. One trick pony and it doesn't even do that trick very well! Very dull and lifeless tone and plays awful. Better off with a Hofner Violin bass if you want an old short scale bass that you can actually use. [/quote] Jack played an EB-3, which is much like an EB-O, but with two pickups and a better sound. Felix played an EB-1, a Gibson bass now very valuable but more for collectors than players it seems. However, Jack Bruce does still sometimes play an EB-1, although he no longer plays an EB-3 which he said now seems like a toy to him. I don't know if he still plays one now, but Mike Watt played an EB-3 for a long time. I can't think of anyone else who still plays an EB-3 or EB-O. Famous players who played an EB-O were few and far between anyway. They seem to have little appeal due to the so-called muddy sound which comes from the single humbucker pickup. I did use one in a studio once and actually liked the sound. But the engineer was also a bassist who paid special attention to the sound of bass on recordings and I was also able to run the EB-O through his Ampeg v4b (which I also liked.)

Actually, I'm drawn to both the Gibson EB-3 and Fender Jazz.

[quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1325540930' post='1484265'] The ones I have tried have been awful. Ploddy. Even the EB-3's, which I lusted after for years being a big Andy Fraser fan (Free) have turned out to be a massive disappointment. Gibson basses.........yuk! [/quote] I have to say I'd love to have a Gibson EB-3 in great condition. Of course, I tend to go for that deep sound that Jack Bruce had with Cream.

[quote name='StraightSix' timestamp='1325539186' post='1484245'] Yes I didn't make that very clear - the Epi EB0 still suffers from a larger-than-Gibson headstock. I would think that with the extra mass of an added bridge pickup, it should balance better than stock at least. [/quote] Those Epi headstocks are so big they look freakish to me. This is coming from someone who has a reasonably favorable attitude toward Epiphone. In fact, I'd like to get an Allen Woody RumbleKat. But those Epi EB-O and EB-3 basses, it's doubtful I'd ever get one.

But an Epiphone EB-O also has neck dive really bad in spite of being a short scale. As I pointed out in another post, a Gibson EB-O has no neck dive at all. I have played one for years and can attest to this fact. I doubt that the scale length has anything to do with the neck dive on the Epi.

I've always been a confirmed 4-stringer. But lately I've been toying with the idea of getting a 5-string, something I never expected I'd do. I find this thread interesting and informative.

I have a 1964 Gibson EB-O and it isn't neck-heavy at all. I tried out the Epiphone equivalent several years ago and it was very neck-heavy; so much so that it was incredibly difficult to concentrate on playing. The obvious point being that there is a world of difference between the Gibson and Epiphone EB-O basses when it comes to neck dive.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=racLKNPAc38&feature=related[/media]