How to get the best sound possible

[HoweDy]

Hi guys, for the last year or so I have been doing random little recordings of my bass through a small behringer eurorack mixer then through to cool edit pro on my computer, I really am useless at recording bass, so does anyone have any good ideas in how I can get something that sounds as good and as clear as this:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Ea_FTBtew&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Ea_FTBtew&feature=fvw[/url]
???

Cheers

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='HoweDy' post='801983' date='Apr 10 2010, 06:21 PM']Hi guys, for the last year or so I have been doing random little recordings of my bass through a small behringer eurorack mixer then through to cool edit pro on my computer, I really am useless at recording bass, so does anyone have any good ideas in how I can get something that sounds as good and as clear as this:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Ea_FTBtew&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Ea_FTBtew&feature=fvw[/url]
???

Cheers[/quote]

the key to good recording is capturing good quality going in. That starts at your own fingers. Every bit of the chain is important and every bit either adds or takes away from the final product. So you need: a good player, a good quality instrument, good strings, and then either a good bass amp, speakers and well position appropriate mic in a good room going into a good/appropriate preamp or alternatively a good quality DI going into a good preamp. All of this needs to go through a good quality a/d converter. You are also likely to need a compressor on their somewhere (a decent software plugin will hold down the dynamics but a good hardware one will be more musical).

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying it's not possible to get an adequate bass recording without that. I'm just explaining how every part of your signal chain that is lacking will take a few percent away from the product. Now if I was on a low budget and wanted to get the best quality bass I could I'd probably buy a BSA ar133 or similar DI, unplug the behringer and go directly into my audio interface/converter. (a good rule of thumb is the shorter you can make the signal path the less degraded the signal becomes.

Now it isn't clear what your exact signal chain is. If you can list it here that would be useful.

Hope this helps.

[GM10]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='802343' date='Apr 11 2010, 08:59 AM']the key to good recording is capturing good quality going in. That starts at your own fingers. Every bit of the chain is important and every bit either adds or takes away from the final product. So you need: a good player, a good quality instrument, good strings, and then either a good bass amp, speakers and well position appropriate mic in a good room going into a good/appropriate preamp or alternatively a good quality DI going into a good preamp. All of this needs to go through a good quality a/d converter. You are also likely to need a compressor on their somewhere (a decent software plugin will hold down the dynamics but a good hardware one will be more musical).

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying it's not possible to get an adequate bass recording without that. I'm just explaining how every part of your signal chain that is lacking will take a few percent away from the product. Now if I was on a low budget and wanted to get the best quality bass I could I'd probably buy a BSA ar133 or similar DI, unplug the behringer and go directly into my audio interface/converter. (a good rule of thumb is the shorter you can make the signal path the less degraded the signal becomes.

Now it isn't clear what your exact signal chain is. If you can list it here that would be useful.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

Where in the chain would the hardware compressor go? I've got pretty much the exact set up you've suggested but even though I've invested in a good compressor, a Demeter Compulator, it still seems to sap the tone from my bass. I've had more success to date using a software plug in for compression. I put the DC first in the chain.

I've also had limited success in combining DI and mic'ing into two seperate channels. Maybe a phasing issue?

[HoweDy]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='802343' date='Apr 11 2010, 08:59 AM']the key to good recording is capturing good quality going in. That starts at your own fingers. Every bit of the chain is important and every bit either adds or takes away from the final product. So you need: a good player, a good quality instrument, good strings, and then either a good bass amp, speakers and well position appropriate mic in a good room going into a good/appropriate preamp or alternatively a good quality DI going into a good preamp. All of this needs to go through a good quality a/d converter. You are also likely to need a compressor on their somewhere (a decent software plugin will hold down the dynamics but a good hardware one will be more musical).

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying it's not possible to get an adequate bass recording without that. I'm just explaining how every part of your signal chain that is lacking will take a few percent away from the product. Now if I was on a low budget and wanted to get the best quality bass I could I'd probably buy a BSA ar133 or similar DI, unplug the behringer and go directly into my audio interface/converter. (a good rule of thumb is the shorter you can make the signal path the less degraded the signal becomes.

Now it isn't clear what your exact signal chain is. If you can list it here that would be useful.

Hope this helps. [/quote]

that is a big help cheers, by signal chain do you mean what is the chain from my bass going to my computer? If so, at the moment it is - bass (fender jazz) - amp (peavey tnt) - pre out on amp - mixer (does not have a preamp on the mixer) then into computer using realtek plugin - Cool edit pro

I hope that's what you mean, I know it's not the greatest lot of equipment but I'm trying to make do

[deathpanda]

I would also like to know how I can get a decent bass recording using the stuff I have. Instead of making my own thread I hope it's okay that I post this in your thread.

Anyway, I have an edriol interface, and a bass. That's literally all my recording hardware, the rest unfortunately is software. Which brings me to my point, I've been using amplitube ever since I got the interface, and whilst it's amazing for guitar, with bass it doesn't sound good at all. The bass heads and cabs are terrible, but they're good for acoustic guitar. I've tried using just cabinet impulses, and no matter how much EQ or compression I use, I can't for the life of me get a good bass tone, and it sounds even worse in the mix. I know it's not my basses, I can get great tones out of them with my amp. I don't have any mics for the amp, and I don't think I'll have the money for one any time soon...

Does anyone have any tips? Perhaps someone has the same kinda set up as me and can share their bass recording method? As always, any help would be appreciated!

[s1ater]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='802697' date='Apr 11 2010, 03:39 PM']I would also like to know how I can get a decent bass recording using the stuff I have. Instead of making my own thread I hope it's okay that I post this in your thread.

Anyway, I have an edriol interface, and a bass. That's literally all my recording hardware, the rest unfortunately is software. Which brings me to my point, I've been using amplitube ever since I got the interface, and whilst it's amazing for guitar, with bass it doesn't sound good at all. The bass heads and cabs are terrible, but they're good for acoustic guitar. I've tried using just cabinet impulses, and no matter how much EQ or compression I use, I can't for the life of me get a good bass tone, and it sounds even worse in the mix. I know it's not my basses, I can get great tones out of them with my amp. I don't have any mics for the amp, and I don't think I'll have the money for one any time soon...

Does anyone have any tips? Perhaps someone has the same kinda set up as me and can share their bass recording method? As always, any help would be appreciated![/quote]


Which version of amplitube are you using?
Ampeg svx is rather good for me

[HoweDy]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='802697' date='Apr 11 2010, 03:39 PM']I would also like to know how I can get a decent bass recording using the stuff I have. Instead of making my own thread I hope it's okay that I post this in your thread.

Anyway, I have an edriol interface, and a bass. That's literally all my recording hardware, the rest unfortunately is software. Which brings me to my point, I've been using amplitube ever since I got the interface, and whilst it's amazing for guitar, with bass it doesn't sound good at all. The bass heads and cabs are terrible, but they're good for acoustic guitar. I've tried using just cabinet impulses, and no matter how much EQ or compression I use, I can't for the life of me get a good bass tone, and it sounds even worse in the mix. I know it's not my basses, I can get great tones out of them with my amp. I don't have any mics for the amp, and I don't think I'll have the money for one any time soon...

Does anyone have any tips? Perhaps someone has the same kinda set up as me and can share their bass recording method? As always, any help would be appreciated![/quote]

its no problem

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='GM10' post='802354' date='Apr 11 2010, 09:19 AM']Where in the chain would the hardware compressor go? I've got pretty much the exact set up you've suggested but even though I've invested in a good compressor, a Demeter Compulator, it still seems to sap the tone from my bass. I've had more success to date using a software plug in for compression. I put the DC first in the chain.

I've also had limited success in combining DI and mic'ing into two seperate channels. Maybe a phasing issue?[/quote]

are you micing or DI'ing? Tell me what your exact chain is. FWIW the compressor you mention is at the lower end of the spectrum rather than the upper end. How much are you compressing with it?

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='HoweDy' post='802433' date='Apr 11 2010, 11:07 AM']that is a big help cheers, by signal chain do you mean what is the chain from my bass going to my computer? If so, at the moment it is - bass (fender jazz) - amp (peavey tnt) - pre out on amp - mixer (does not have a preamp on the mixer) then into computer using realtek plugin - Cool edit pro

I hope that's what you mean, I know it's not the greatest lot of equipment but I'm trying to make do [/quote]

So in terms of your chain you can see that after your bass your chain is less than optimal. If you don't have any cash for upgrades I'd start by removing the Behringer from the chain. It looks like an extra gain stage in the signal chain for no good reason. I'd dump it unless you have a good reason not to. I've searched realtek and it looks like just a normal soundcard rather than an audio recording specific one. That will not be helping. Finally, what level are you hitting your DAW at? You want to be hitting about -18 to -12dbfs maximum. If you are hitting more than that you are essentially burning the audio. Hope this all makes sense?

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='802697' date='Apr 11 2010, 03:39 PM']I would also like to know how I can get a decent bass recording using the stuff I have. Instead of making my own thread I hope it's okay that I post this in your thread.

Anyway, I have an edriol interface, and a bass. That's literally all my recording hardware, the rest unfortunately is software. Which brings me to my point, I've been using amplitube ever since I got the interface, and whilst it's amazing for guitar, with bass it doesn't sound good at all. The bass heads and cabs are terrible, but they're good for acoustic guitar. I've tried using just cabinet impulses, and no matter how much EQ or compression I use, I can't for the life of me get a good bass tone, and it sounds even worse in the mix. I know it's not my basses, I can get great tones out of them with my amp. I don't have any mics for the amp, and I don't think I'll have the money for one any time soon...

Does anyone have any tips? Perhaps someone has the same kinda set up as me and can share their bass recording method? As always, any help would be appreciated![/quote]

Tone in = tone out. Does the bass sound the way you want it to as you are recording it? If so it may be that you are overcooking it in the way in (I explained this above). If you arent getting the perfect tone before you hit the record button then you'll always be in turd polishing territory. Work hard on that input sound and it will repay you tenfold.

[HoweDy]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='802870' date='Apr 11 2010, 06:40 PM']So in terms of your chain you can see that after your bass your chain is less than optimal. If you don't have any cash for upgrades I'd start by removing the Behringer from the chain. It looks like an extra gain stage in the signal chain for no good reason. I'd dump it unless you have a good reason not to. I've searched realtek and it looks like just a normal soundcard rather than an audio recording specific one. That will not be helping. Finally, what level are you hitting your DAW at? You want to be hitting about -18 to -12dbfs maximum. If you are hitting more than that you are essentially burning the audio. Hope this all makes sense?[/quote]

Firstly, i don't know what a DAW is.... and if i don't use my mixer then what do i plug my bass into? :s that must sound like a daft question sorry but i am 16 and i have taught myself everything to do with recording so far

[deathpanda]

[quote name='HoweDy' post='802810' date='Apr 11 2010, 05:47 PM']its no problem [/quote]

cheers!

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='802875' date='Apr 11 2010, 06:44 PM']Tone in = tone out. Does the bass sound the way you want it to as you are recording it? If so it may be that you are overcooking it in the way in (I explained this above). If you arent getting the perfect tone before you hit the record button then you'll always be in turd polishing territory. Work hard on that input sound and it will repay you tenfold.[/quote]

"If you arent getting the perfect tone before you hit the record button then you'll always be in turd polishing territory" what an excellent way of putting it, even I understand it! But yeah, I'm getting frustrated getting best tone before recording (which is awful at best) and then trying to relax and just relying on post-processing to make it good. I'm guessing it's just my interface preamp being weak? That said, it's perfectly suited for crystal clear guitar recording so it's a trade-off.

[51m0n]

Rimskidog isnt lying, but you kids are on a budget so:-

Cheapest way (and yes this can sound great)

[list]
[*]Great technique (really - nothing can be done with rubbish playing)
[*]Properly maintained and well set up bass with decent pickups (well duh!)
[*]New strings (you can always get rid of zing and harmonic content, you cant add it, and it sounds better to turn the treble down on good strings than turn it up on old knackered ones)
[*]Good lead (OBBM's are fantastic and great value for money)
[*]Instrument in on your soundcard (if it doesnt have one, get one that does).
[*]Decent software (Digital Audio Workstation) - I massively recommend Reaper, the license is very good value for money.
[/list]

Now you need to understand three things gain staging, eq, and compression.

[b]Gain staging[/b] is the science of setting levels. The lower your level the worse the signal to noise ratio, the higher your level the more likely you are to go 'over' or 'clip' the input stage or any other are of the signal path. Setting your gain stage is getting the loudest signal that wont clip. Its one of the area that newbies get wrong consistently. It is absolutely at the heart of serious recording aqt any level. Dont allow any clipping, and give yourself a good 3dB to 6dB of headroom above the strongest peaks in a test run, in case you dig in a bit more during tracking.

[b]EQ[/b] is how you balance the timbre of the signal. Bass goes way down to 30 odd Hz on a 5 string, but bass guitars dont have much of that fundamental tone to their signal with the lowest notes, they have a lot more second order harmonics to them (an octave up from there).

Try and think of your bass having 4 areas to its sound:-

Bass - Between 40 and 120Hz. 'Woomph', 'thickness', 'weight', 'lack of clarity'

Lo mid - Between 120 and 500Hz, 'Punch', 'Thump', 'Mud'

Hi mid - Between 500Hz and 2KHz, 'Definition', 'growl', 'clack'

Top - Above 2Khz, 'Zing', 'Air', 'Hiss', 'metallic'

These are rough guides only, and the descriptions should give you an idea what you can wexpect from each region, both good and bad.

To set up a semi-parametric eq, whilst the track plays back put +9dB of boost on and sweep until you find the frequency you want to boost (or take away), then drop the boost to 0dB and re-add or remove until everything sounds nice.

For reasons of noise and gain staging it is often better to cut crap ratehr than boost good.

Double check the gain after playing with eq!

Personally I tend to track without eq, as if you throw something away you cant get it back, and eq is powerful enough to only need to be used at mix down IME. The exception is when I have access to an excellent hardware eq (and I mean excellent)

[b]Compression[/b], crikey there are books on just this and very very good artcles on set up (check out ovnilabs). I would say forget pedal comps they dont offer fine enough control, or decent enough metering to allow proper set up in a recording environment. Its that simple. You need a proper compressor with full control of threshold, ratio, attack, release and make up gain, with metering of input, output and gain reduction.

I'm not going to go in to another detailed description of compressor set up though, it takes too long!

Edited April 12, 2010 by 51m0n

[derrenleepoole]

Excellent advice here, cheers.

FWIW, I use a free DAW called [url="http://ardour.org/"]Ardour[/url], it's open source and is well supported. It's only for OS X and Linux though at the moment, but is well worth checking out. It works a lot like the free version of Pro Tools that ran on OS 9 way back in the day.

[GM10]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='802861' date='Apr 11 2010, 06:33 PM']are you micing or DI'ing? Tell me what your exact chain is. FWIW the compressor you mention is at the lower end of the spectrum rather than the upper end. How much are you compressing with it?[/quote]

Fair point about the compressor. I was meaning from the range of stomp really.

So far my best sounding set up is just DIing. My Sandberg to - AR-133 to Mackie 1202VLZ pro mixer (EQ all at 12:00) to Edirol FA66 interface to Cubase Essentail 5. Tweaking compression and EQ in Essential 5 . My levels are set OK with no clipping. I did try my compulater before the AR133 in the chain but it sounded crap.

I've experimented with the above set up but also used the link out of the AR 133 to my amp. My amp isn't too good, Fender Rumble 100 1X15. There may lie the problem, although I do think it sounds OK. I then mic'd the amp ( done some research on mic positioning)with an SM57 put it into the Mackie mixer, interface, Cubase and recorded onto a seperate channel. I couldn't get a sound I was happy with from thr two channels. Too muddy. I may not have given this enough experimenting time yet but I'm interested to know if anyone thinks I can improve my set up or am i making any glaring mistakes.

Edited April 15, 2010 by GM10

[Mog]

Re-amping.You can play around with the sound as mush as you like before yo lay the final track.

[51m0n]

If I could only have one thing for tracking bass it would be this:-





There is something utterly magical about that compressor, I've got a tonne of different bass tones from the stereo TwinQ version (this is effectively oine channel of the same unit). The eq is also superb, sublime in fact..

Honestly if you wanted a 'golden bullet' preamp for bass (or mic'ed guitars or even some vox) I cannot recommend this enough.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='GM10' post='806418' date='Apr 14 2010, 07:38 PM']Fair point about the compressor. I was meaning from the range of stomp really.

So far my best sounding set up is just DIing. My Sandberg to - AR-133 to Mackie 1202VLZ pro mixer (EQ all at 12:00) to Edirol FA66 interface to Cubase Essentail 5. Tweaking compression and EQ in Essential 5 . My levels are set OK with no clipping. I did try my compulater before the AR133 in the chain but it sounded crap.

I've experimented with the above set up but also used the link out of the AR 133 to my amp. My amp isn't too good, Fender Rumble 100 1X15. There may lie the problem, although I do think it sounds OK. I then mic'd the amp ( done some research on mic positioning)with an SM57 put it into the Mackie mixer, interface, Cubase and recorded onto a seperate channel. I couldn't get a sound I was happy with from thr two channels. Too muddy. I may not have given this enough experimenting time yet but I'm interested to know if anyone thinks I can improve my set up or am i making any glaring mistakes.[/quote]

I'd take the mixer out of the chain and go straight from the AR133 to the edirol. You have too many gain stages in there.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='51m0n' post='806967' date='Apr 15 2010, 11:26 AM']If I could only have one thing for tracking bass it would be this:-





There is something utterly magical about that compressor, I've got a tonne of different bass tones from the stereo TwinQ version (this is effectively oine channel of the same unit). The eq is also superb, sublime in fact..

Honestly if you wanted a 'golden bullet' preamp for bass (or mic'ed guitars or even some vox) I cannot recommend this enough.[/quote]

Not sure I'm with you on that. I bought a oneQ because it was as cheap as chips and I had heard good things about it. I think I used it twice before it went. If I had to buy one tool for recording bass it would be an A Designs reddi if I was going for pure tone or if I was going for flexibility I'd buy a Creation Audio Labs MW1. It has a beautiful clean DI and, has great re-amping possibilities. (I have both and woulndt part with either of them)

[51m0n]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='807649' date='Apr 15 2010, 09:08 PM']Not sure I'm with you on that. I bought a oneQ because it was as cheap as chips and I had heard good things about it. I think I used it twice before it went. If I had to buy one tool for recording bass it would be an A Designs reddi if I was going for pure tone or if I was going for flexibility I'd buy a Creation Audio Labs MW1. It has a beautiful clean DI and, has great re-amping possibilities. (I have both and woulndt part with either of them)[/quote]

Fair play mate, I just had brilliant results with the twinQ, honestly, every time I've used it the result has just sat in the mix and subtly been exactly right. I dont doubt its not a pure 'tone', its definitely very coloured (especially the compressor), but its a colour I really like.

Maybe I'm just a bit cheap then

[GM10]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='807641' date='Apr 15 2010, 09:02 PM']I'd take the mixer out of the chain and go straight from the AR133 to the edirol. You have too many gain stages in there.[/quote]

I've got two jack/XLR inserts on the interface so could still experiment with both DI and mic'd bass amp on seperate channels. Pre amps in the mixer are better for mic'd acoustic guitar/vocal than the interface so it'll remain part of my set up for now. So many options, so little time!

Ta

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='GM10' post='808405' date='Apr 16 2010, 01:56 PM']I've got two jack/XLR inserts on the interface so could still experiment with both DI and mic'd bass amp on seperate channels. Pre amps in the mixer are better for mic'd acoustic guitar/vocal than the interface so it'll remain part of my set up for now. So many options, so little time!

Ta[/quote]

The pres in your mixer may be a tiny bit better than your edirol but unless you go digitally into the edirol you are still going through them (I'll bet a pound to a pinch of sh** that the line in is just the pre with an inline pad so you end up with all the downside of your edirol pre anyway. Trust me. Just try it without. You may well be surprised (experimentation is the key to great engineering in any case). If it doesnt give you a nicer signal at mix time you can always re do it.

Good luck

[deathpanda]

hey guys, could you tell me what you think about the bass in this? imho, it's the only formidable tone I've gotten thus far. it's just amplitube, lots of compression and EQ. I can't really say I like it... maybe I've just been messing around with it for too long that nothing sounds right anymore?

[attachment=47793:white_space_funk.mp3]