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New Cabs for an ERBer - Journey End?

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[center]Basstalk.co.uk _ Amps and Cabinets _ New cabs for an ERBer[/center]
Posted by: dood May 4 2007, 01:45 PM
Having been spurred on by a recent PM and the posts about definitive cabs etc, oh and a really bad bought of G.A.S.. I am looking for ideas for (a) new cab(s).

So , i thought the best way to do this and to open up a discussion would be to make a list of the things that I want out of a cab set up.

1) I run a stereo set up, so will be looking for either a single 'box' that can be split into 2 channels if necessary.. like an 8x10 with inputs for splitting into 2 4x10's. Or 2 seperate cabs with the same drivers.

2) A 'one cab solution' could be suitable, if it was able to deliver the necessary 'grunt'. (Yes I *could* go mono I guess)

3) I'm looking for PA like sound quality again.. A 'full range' solution, with oodles of low end extension. (I am running a low F# string, so a good tight bottom end is required)

4) LIGHT WEIGHT! yup.. I expect the cabs to be bigger than my little Techs, so if the weight can be kept down.. NEO speakers would be a good idea.

5) I am not ruling out PA cabs themselves here! I don't *have* to use bass cabs!

6) My current set up is piling out 1K RMS per channel.. Obviously I dont NEED all that power, but the amp was a bargain.. so, instead of selling it, I may as well get cabs that wont melt as soon as I power up my rig!!

7) I have no real reason to sell my existing cabs, except wanting a BIGGER sound.. especially if I take only one cab out with me. Sometimes I want a bit more width and bottom end out of one cab vs Mr 4x12 next to me and I'm too lazy to take 2 cabs with me all the time!

8) This is only research, so cost..well..it doesnt matter.. I want to see what the solutions available are!

9)I like the idea of cabs like the Accugroove El Whappo and other 'giant monitor' designs, horns and some of the cabs that are used for large stage side fills etc, but obviously they are HOOJ!

10) Obviously there's no point me dropping to less than what I have already, so would rule out 2x10's 3x10's 1x15's etc.

I wonder what else is out there! Tell me what your thoughts are.



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Posted by: elros May 4 2007, 04:18 PM
Obviously you are already aware of these. But I do suggeset AccuGroove speakers. (What does HOOJ mean?) Either a pair of El Whappos, or a pair of Bill Dickens signature cabs (which are supposed to be meaner and louder than the El Whappo).
Myself I use a pair of Tri-112L cabs, which I like a lot.


Posted by: dood May 4 2007, 04:27 PM
HOOJ=HUGE! ;o) Yes.. I saw a couple on the ERBist forum.. I think El Whappo will be on the 'must try' list.
I used to have the TRI210L.. lovely cab, but the Tech cabs were more powerful and 'deeper'. The option of upgrading to bigger Tech cabs is certainly one to think about. the 6x12 is awesome.. mebbe I could pick up ;The Bad Cab' .. now that would be a goooood idea!! Shall I see if I can find one?


Posted by: bassbloke May 4 2007, 05:45 PM
I keep pointing you in the direction fo that nice Tech 6 x 10 on ebay. I reckon that'd serve you well. The Tech 12s are very, very nice indeed. I have a 212ND and it sounds immense - there's so much bass and punch on offer.


Posted by: dood May 4 2007, 06:47 PM
Oh yeah! I forgot about that didn't i? permission to kick me BassBloke! 2 of those would do nicely! ;o)


Posted by: TheFunk May 4 2007, 06:55 PM

QUOTE(dood @ May 4 2007, 01:45 PM)
5) I am not ruling out PA cabs themselves here! I don't *have* to use bass cabs!


Do it. You know you want to. I'd be interested to hear what that sounds like - especially with an extended range bass set-up.

Three-way active crossover with seperate speakers for high-range, mid-range, and the deep stuff. Yeah!


Posted by: alexclaber May 4 2007, 07:00 PM
I'd recommend building a couple of DR250, OmniTop12 or Omni 10 or 10.5 for your stereo top cabs, and biamping with a Titan 39 or two for your lows.

Alex


Posted by: dood May 4 2007, 07:25 PM

QUOTE(alexclaber @ May 4 2007, 07:00 PM)
I'd recommend building a couple of DR250, OmniTop12 or Omni 10 or 10.5 for your stereo top cabs, and biamping with a Titan 39 or two for your lows.

Alex



In theory, thats a really great idea, but in reality, what happens if I don't like the sound of the cabs when they are done? Thats really the major downside with BFM designs. You'd have to pray that *somewhere* in the country there is at least one of each of the above mentioned cabs! ;o)


Posted by: dood May 4 2007, 07:27 PM
.. to listen to in order to decide if they made the right kinda noises (I forgot to finish the sentence before I hit Add!!)


Posted by: dood May 4 2007, 08:20 PM

QUOTE(TheFunk @ May 4 2007, 06:55 PM)
Do it. You know you want to. I'd be interested to hear what that sounds like - especially with an extended range bass set-up.

Three-way active crossover with seperate speakers for high-range, mid-range, and the deep stuff. Yeah!






That *may* just do the job lol lol


Posted by: peted May 5 2007, 07:01 AM

QUOTE(dood @ May 4 2007, 08:20 PM)

That *may* just do the job lol lol

That's a naked TecAmp BadCab isn't it?

What about going for something with fewer drivers and a larger enclosure. That'll give you better low end response and greater efficiency (if I've been stalking BFM well enough).


Posted by: d-basser May 5 2007, 10:03 AM
If you get a bad cab you will have bassist queing to weep at your feet


Posted by: dood May 5 2007, 10:14 AM
It does look pretty insane! - and.. it's not as tall as I expected it to be. However.. it could be just a smidge too tall for my estate car! I need to pop out with a tape measure!


Posted by: oxblood May 5 2007, 10:37 AM

QUOTE(dood @ May 4 2007, 07:25 PM)
Thats really the major downside with BFM designs. You'd have to pray that *somewhere* in the country there is at least one of each of the above mentioned cabs! ;o)


Well, by the way things are going in the thumper household right now, I'd say your next move should be a trip to Northampton. His BFM rig is getting bigger by the hour!

EDIT: BTW, I don't think that bad cab thingy has much commonsense to it, design-wise. I go along with BFM on this one: too many drivers that are too close to each other, size-wise. If it's flat-response HiFi you're aiming for, you'd be better off with a set of strictly crossovered drivers, each optimised for its own frequency band. The result might be something like:
1x15
2x8
1x5
Tweeter/horn
And as for cab design, I wonder what a transmission line design would work like for bass guitar? Hell, that would be a big cab!


Posted by: dood May 5 2007, 11:03 AM
Yes, I can see your point. I have been looking at PA cabs.. of the FOH variety too.. but I could do with some suggestions as to who makes 'em! I got as far as Mackie and Logik... I think i'll go visit my friendly PA guy today to do some research!


Posted by: oxblood May 5 2007, 11:25 AM

QUOTE(dood @ May 5 2007, 11:03 AM)
Yes, I can see your point. I have been looking at PA cabs.. of the FOH variety too.. but I could do with some suggestions as to who makes 'em! I got as far as Mackie and Logik... I think i'll go visit my friendly PA guy today to do some research!

Of course, the big worry with using PA cabs (or specifically, folded horns) is 'throw', and not being able to hear yo bad self onstage. You risk deafening the audience while you can't make out a darn thing. Back in the 70s, when I first started playing bass, I was using a VOX AC50 through a pair of HOOJ (that is how you spell it, innit? ) folded horn bins lent to me by my brother from his PA hire company. You can imagine the result: I'd be playing at what I thought was reasonable home practice level, then the locals would come banging on the door - from two streets away!

Do you do anything fancy like in-ear monitoring, or are you relying on your rig to provide the "what the hell am I playing?" info? If it's the latter, a more...er...orthodox backline approach might be advisable. Whatever that is.


Posted by: redroque1 May 5 2007, 08:20 PM
Dood
the problem with any cab update is going to be size and weight - which you said was a major consideration.
The tech cabs of yours are light and powerful so rather than update them for a better sound, upgrade the Class D power amp for a Quested or some such.( [url="http://www.quested.com/"]http://www.quested.com/[/url] ) A better power amp will handle transients and that F sharp (can't find a hash key!) better than the Class d - they are okay - just bought one to power my wedgehorn - but like most things, you get what you pay for.
max


Posted by: dood May 6 2007, 12:37 PM
Ken.. ah yes! point taken!! Thats a very good point. When I will be relying on backline to provide my volume I guess the venues wont be massive.. any bigger shows, we can use PA support.

I guess what I should have said, with reference to PA cabs, is from a quality point of view, not so much wanting massive horns on stage. For example, cabs that are properly designed so that each individual compartment / speaker is producing the frequencies it should be from the deepest bottom end to the sparkliest (thats a word?? lol lol) top end, to give me an efficient and capable cab. Accugroove aspire to this by saying that each 'box' that the speakers are set into are tuned for that specific speaker etc. Whether or not that is true and it *really* works, will be one for the number crunchers amongst us. I had a TRI210L and it was certainly very BIG sounding for its diminuitive size. I'm not too fussed if the cab is larger, now that the price of NEO stuff is coming down. Infact, if anything a lightweight 8x10 will go into my car easily. The MarkBass and Tech 8x10's are only 40Kg ! (My Hartke 4.5XL was 45 alone!)

Max .. I see where you are coming from, however, my powersoft is a high spec unit already, so there would be no reason to upgrade it. It plays in the same park as manufacturers like Chevin etc. The thing that really caught my eye (other than the lovely blue colour they paint their gear) is that its a 1u unit, leaving me lots of rack space. (it's a very 'deep' amp in its size, so only just fits in a rack with the doors on.. but I guess if it has to fit two 1Kw amps in..they've gotta go somewhere! lol )


Posted by: TimmyC May 6 2007, 02:30 PM
Stereo El Whappos! Gotta be done


Posted by: dood May 6 2007, 02:39 PM
Well it's certainly someting to look at. I have just been trawling through the discussions over at TB and find it very difficult to actually find a factual review of the cabs which seem to get mentioned in ref to the Whappos. (Most seem to disolve into rants about ethics and technical specifications!!)

Its always difficult when there are very little outlets in the UK who stock enough high end brands AND be able to try them out (A/:) in a decent sized room.




Posted by: op May 6 2007, 09:53 PM
d&b PA cabs from Germany. Not DB but d&b.

You will never look back.


Posted by: dood May 6 2007, 10:10 PM
Going there now mate..


Posted by: dood May 6 2007, 10:23 PM
*gulp* niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!


Posted by: op May 6 2007, 11:03 PM
Best gig I ever did was when we turned up to do a corporate gig and there was a PA that had been hired for the week just for us. Midas desk. d&b FOH. Peter Gabriel's drummer (CLANG name drop!) sat in with us and the PA had such headroom and solidity. We were doing some wild dynamics and the PA never even broke sweat. I was hammering a 5 string DB with mucho B action. The FOH was 2 1x12"+ horn wedges and the sound was crystal clear. No idea on weight etc. I know that they are EXPENSIVE - but OH!


Posted by: dood May 6 2007, 11:45 PM
Thats sounds coooel! I'm after that solid full PA like sound.. I can't really explain it in terms of cabinets.. but you just *know* when something sounds right. Its like having that FOH tone behind you. Big full and clean sounding. Thats what I'm after. I just need to figure out how to get it! It'll be an interesting search, certainly!


Posted by: jhferret May 7 2007, 10:16 AM
Accugrove seems to be the choice of many ERB players. What about getting hold of Robbie to try his Whappo Jr.

The only other thing is the stuff that Ashdown used to make for The Ox. I know he was not playing ERB's but he did use horn loaded bass bins for his harmonic undertones.


Posted by: dood May 7 2007, 10:43 AM
Good call John, I'd hoped that Robbie was coming to the last Bass Bash with his Jr, but I think he was busy that day. Another cab I have been looking at, which intrigues me is the new range with Jonas Hellborg's name on. I met him at LGS and we thrashed the pants off his rig there. part of his system is the 'big' cab, a 1x15 coaxial speaker and a 1x15 sub in one box. It sounded very clean at the show.. I'd like to try it out with me gear to see how it would fare.
I know the horns you mean that Ashdown made. I saw some on ebay a while back. I'll add those to the list in my investigations!


Posted by: alexclaber May 8 2007, 12:27 PM
From everything I've read, there is no 'sound' to the BFM cabs once set-up correctly, they're just like any high end PA system. I don't really understand why you run your effects in stereo when so many venues run their PA systems in mono - unless you bring your own PA?

The Bad Cat certainly looks like the most ill designed cab I've ever seen. Nowhere near enough internal volume and so many similar sized but different drivers. A comb filtering and phase response nightmare.

The AccuGroove cabs certainly sound nice though I'd dispute the accuracy of their sound and the claims of unique cab within a cab for ideal response. They also suffer from a lack of crossovers and the inaccuracies that causes. They have nowhere near the bass extension they claim, nowhere near!

How much do you want to spend? If you didn't already have a nice power amp then I'd recommend Meyer Sound's active speakers - a pair of CQ-1's would be great or a pair of MTS-4A's for larger gigs. It may be a challenge to get passive PA speakers that will do the job without subs - though something like a driverack PA could help. Coda Audio make some very nice gear too - the Rx35 passive cab should do a fine job, with its neo 15" in large enclosure and huge mid/high coax horn.

The obvious budget option is a pair of Omni 15's which I'm confident will outperform your current cabs or a pair of overpriced El Whappos.

Alex


Posted by: TheFunk May 8 2007, 01:48 PM
It might be worth discussing some of your requirements with hi-fi audiophiles. They're masters of sound reproduction.

When I was thinking about a rig for my keyboard player, I remember toying with the idea of a normal 2 x 10 bass cab combined with a normal 1 x 12 guitar cab. Might sound really crap though!


Posted by: dood May 8 2007, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(alexclaber @ May 8 2007, 12:27 PM)
From everything I've read, there is no 'sound' to the BFM cabs once set-up correctly, they're just like any high end PA system. I don't really understand why you run your effects in stereo when so many venues run their PA systems in mono - unless you bring your own PA?


Sadly a failing of most venues.. I have been lucky then as I do get to play in stereo *mostly*.. but then, I like the sound to be nice and full, so if it is necessary to bring the right backline to ensure I get the sound I want behind me then so be it.If the PA guy only takes a mono signal.. then .. well.. shame really.


QUOTE
The Bad Cat certainly looks like the most ill designed cab I've ever seen. Nowhere near enough internal volume and so many similar sized but different drivers. A comb filtering and phase response nightmare.


yup, I think there are many technical websites to support that.


QUOTE
The AccuGroove cabs certainly sound nice though I'd dispute the accuracy of their sound and the claims of unique cab within a cab for ideal response. They also suffer from a lack of crossovers and the inaccuracies that causes. They have nowhere near the bass extension they claim, nowhere near!


But a damn sight better than other 'chuck cones in a badly sized cab' designs? - something that was aggressively debated in a recent thread.


QUOTE
How much do you want to spend? If you didn't already have a nice power amp then I'd recommend Meyer Sound's active speakers - a pair of CQ-1's would be great or a pair of MTS-4A's for larger gigs. It may be a challenge to get passive PA speakers that will do the job without subs - though something like a driverack PA could help. Coda Audio make some very nice gear too - the Rx35 passive cab should do a fine job, with its neo 15" in large enclosure and huge mid/high coax horn.

I'll go take a look.. When it comes to price, it will be down to who does the most suitable solution at the most cost effective price. I have owned all sorts of cabs and we know that there are a few companies that blatantly charge the earth, but with no *real* improvement in terms of what they *say* their cabs are capable of.


QUOTE
The obvious budget option is a pair of Omni 15's which I'm confident will outperform your current cabs or a pair of overpriced El Whappos.

Alex


Again, I won't doubt that the BFM cabs are capable; I'd love to try before I hand over wads of cash though. I realise that isn't possible as BFM only sells designs not physical products.

Anyone built an Omni 15 yet? Or bigger?

Thanks for your informative post Alex. Any thoughts on a couple of ACME B4's?





Posted by: dood May 8 2007, 02:05 PM

QUOTE(TheFunk @ May 8 2007, 01:48 PM)
It might be worth discussing some of your requirements with hi-fi audiophiles. They're masters of sound reproduction.

When I was thinking about a rig for my keyboard player, I remember toying with the idea of a normal 2 x 10 bass cab combined with a normal 1 x 12 guitar cab. Might sound really crap though!


Yes, Infact I have also been having a jolly nice chat to a guy at Eminence, who has been filling in some 'gaps' in my ideas!



Posted by: alexclaber May 8 2007, 02:25 PM

QUOTE(dood @ May 8 2007, 02:04 PM)
But a damn sight better than other 'chuck cones in a badly sized cab' designs? - something that was aggressively debated in a recent thread.


Yes and no. Better than some but not to the extent that they claim. Nowhere near the quality of design of Bergantino, EA or Acme IMO. The novel design with different sized drivers does a great job of giving the impression of audiophile design but it's only an impression. Nice sound though not very honest.


QUOTE(dood @ May 8 2007, 02:04 PM)
Again, I won't doubt that the BFM cabs are capable; I'd love to try before I hand over wads of cash though. I realise that isn't possible as BFM only sells designs not physical products.


The way I see it is that you already have a nice rig so you're in no hurry to change. You have a good grasp of technical stuff so building a cab, especially one of the Omni's, shouldn't present a problem. The cost of materials for a single Omni 15 is very low, especially compared to high end PA cabs. I don't believe you can buy a significant upgrade on your current rig without spending stupid money - avoid that by self-building! Once you've built an Omni 15, if you like it build another. If you don't, then sell it to someone on here for a profit - there's bound to be plenty of interest. If you don't like it, and you've build it right and set the L-pads correctly, then you don't like uncoloured near-flat response, so that's a useful thing to know before looking at PA cabs.


QUOTE(dood @ May 8 2007, 02:04 PM)
Anyone built an Omni 15 yet? Or bigger?


If you go bigger you'll be going to a biamped rig, which you can only do with your current amp if you give up stereo capabilities.


QUOTE(dood @ May 8 2007, 02:04 PM)
Thanks for your informative post Alex. Any thoughts on a couple of ACME B4's?


I don't think the Low-B4 has enough output in the high mids and highs to handle heavy effects at high volume - a pair of Low-B2s would be better and they also benefit from vertical cone alignment. For normal bass sounds it's awesome though.

For my requirements I don't believe there is anything that I can buy that can better my Low-B2s, consequently I've designed my next cabs and when I have the time (and money because there will be some pricey components) I'll build them myself. It's nice getting off the GAS train...

Alex


Posted by: dood May 10 2007, 04:49 PM
I think my thoughts ended up spilling over onto warwickhunt's thread about Eminence speakers! Sorry mate!! I'll drag them back hear!

I liked what you were saying Alex, about using a PA style large tweeter on top of a well tuned cabinet.

I am also not ruling out trying the BFM route.

Alex, I noticed that you were going for a non BFM design. Could I use you valuable experience and tell me why you went that route for your design plans?


Posted by: alexclaber May 10 2007, 07:43 PM

QUOTE(dood @ May 10 2007, 04:49 PM)
I liked what you were saying Alex, about using a PA style large tweeter on top of a well tuned cabinet.


When I started looking into cab design a while back I was quite keen to use BMS's coax compression driver, which can run down to 300Hz on a big enough horn. Then I found out the price! I also realised that there was no way in hell that I'd need that kind of SPL from a bass cab. So I got on with 3-way designs. However, on revisiting the BMS drivers I realised that some of their non-coax 1" compression drivers could get down to 1kHz and below, which crosses over nicely to a 15" let alone 10"s or 12"s. It is more costly than normal mids and tweeters but not by much because one compression driver and horn will go a loud as whole host of mids and tweeters.


QUOTE(dood @ May 10 2007, 04:49 PM)
Alex, I noticed that you were going for a non BFM design. Could I use you valuable experience and tell me why you went that route for your design plans?


One word: Size.

Weight is less of a concern because the BFM cabs are pretty light with 1/2" birch and neo drivers and can be made lighter still if you go to 9mm okoumé or birch. I currently use one Acme Low-B2 for rehearsals, two for gigs. As 2x10"s go it's about as small as they get and it's lighter than most. I like to have the same sound wherever I play, so my gig rig has to sound near identical to my rehearsal rig, hence I either want one cab that does it all, two matching cabs so I can add another for gigs, or two cabs where the second cab adds extra bottom for gigs but doesn't change the tone.

I'd be happy with an Omni 15 for gigs but it's too big for taking to rehearsals. The Omni 10 is quite a lot bigger than a Low-B2. An Omni 10.5 might do the job for rehearsals but then again it might not. The DR250 is also quite a lot bigger than a Low-B2. And none of the standalone cabs bar the Omni 15 have as much bottom as an Acme. Even the Omni 15 doesn't go that low but I'm prepared to give up sub 50Hz bottom for more output between 50 and 100Hz. When I thought I needed a hell of a lot of SPL I was thinking of a DR250 plus Titan 39 rig - and then I realised that much volume onstage wrecks my singing.

So I wanted something with full bass response though not necessarily right down to 30Hz, high power handling, greater sensitivity than the Acmes, lower distortion than the Acmes, barely larger than an Acme and definitely lighter, good dispersion and projection, tiltback for rehearsals and gigs with PA support. I went through tons of designs, then went to various BFM configurations, then returned to my designs and finally came up with the latest design, which is as follows:

Main cab: 3015LF in 100 litres tuned to 48Hz. Triangular ports on lower corners of baffle. 15 deg tiltback angle on back half of cab, so you can choose vertical or tiltback. BMS 4552ND driver on BMS 2221 90x40 horn. 800Hz crossover point. Biamped - no passive crossover - with QSC DSP-4 to split the signal and do all sorts of cunning things with compression and limiting at high volume (a la Bergantino IP). QSC PLX 3002 to power it all - 550W into one woofer, 900W with extension cab. 300W into mid/high horn. Composite panel construction with plastic laminated ply outer panel, foam core, ply inner; aluminium edges and corners. Extension cab: As above but minus HF section and tiltback.

It will not be cheap and it will take ages to build but it will be rather good.

Alex


Posted by: dood May 10 2007, 07:57 PM
That looks like qiuite a spec Alex. I think I'll google to find out some more (BMS cones)


Posted by: Moo May 10 2007, 09:05 PM
Heres My 2p Dood. -
A few thoughts and observations form a Bass player & sound engineer.

I have used P.A. systems with Mono Subs and Stereo mid/highs, but never full mono. - The F.X. just sound dull and lifeless in mono. There are good reasons to be carefull with panning though, because in a wide audience situation, the left and right hand portions of audience will get different mixes if you pan hard. In this situation only the middle 1/3 of the audience will be able to hear stereo, the other 2/3 are too close to one of the stacks to be able to hear the other.

All Large Professional sound systems come with there own E.Q.s and FOH processors as part of the package. The bigger ones are computer controlled to optimise the sound to each separate audience section that each tightly directional cab covers.
Efficient Pro P.A. systems do not attempt to flatten the response of the cabs accousticly, but do so electronicaly.
To make a speaker response flat, you have to attenuate lots of natural resonances. Doing this accousticly by damping and attenuating the resonances makes the cabs inneficient. (This is what happens in Hi Fi cabs where large SPLs are not needed.) The B.F. philosophy, and that of most Pro P.A. systems, is to make the cabs efficient, without worying about a flat response, and equalise it out electronicaly.

One of the biggest problems with P.A. systems, is that they often get put into buildings, which then buggers the L.F. response (as well as a host of other problems that other musicians apart from Bass players worry about.)
That sound you like from Good P.A. systems will probably come from automatic self leveling E.Q. for the room, dedicated E.qQ> and crossovers for the speakers, as well as Limiters and other FOH Proccessing to protect the amps. To a certain extent you can get any speaker sytem in a venue to sound good with proper Auto E.Q. and processing if its large enough and has enough SPL for the Auto E.Q. to do its thing withut running out of headroom. It is also posible to make a realy good P.A. sound Sheeite in a venue if you have a tight get in time, and don't have time to set the e.q.s etc.
Buy yourself an auto E.Q. like the the behringer Ultacurve pro (That Bill recommends), or better if you can afford it, and take the guesswork out of compensating for room nodes etc. This will tighten up your sound a lot. (Although you may not hear it next to the backiline on stage.)
Manual Graphic E.Q.s are better than nothig if you can't run to an Auto E.Q. but I recently read in a post on Studiotips.com that you must E.Q. with your eyes closed, otherwise there is a tendency to make pretty patterns with the E.Q. rather than set it for the best sound!

If you are considering one of the B.F. cabs, then read the posts on his website about E.Q.s and F.O.H. Processing, because his larger speakers are desingned to be used with them, and will probbably sound peakey without them (From Looking at the plots).
(Please feel free to correct me if your reading Bill.)

My suggestion for Posible P.A. like bass rig that will sound Huge, but will fit in car is for something along the lines of a H.K system. A large sub, with smaller Mid/High speakers for stereo. (Random Link Here to show you what they look like - [url="http://www.marksmusic.co.uk/acatalog/Pro-Audio.html"]http://www.marksmusic.co.uk/acatalog/Pro-Audio.html[/url] )
You could so this with a large bass cab (4x12 or 2x15) and 2 small P.A. cabs (10s + horns) With Crossover + E.Q.s of course.

Food for thought . . .
Moo.


Posted by: dood May 11 2007, 04:51 PM
Moo, that is excellent. I am going to reread and digest later. Thanks so much.

Dan


Posted by: Moo May 11 2007, 07:41 PM
HI Dood.
I have used an HK Lucas 600 Which sounds nice, but obviously does not have enough volume for a full band.
The larger HK systems have all of the amps crossover, equalisation and limiting built in which saves a 6u rack from the load in/out.
They get expensive quickly as the size goes up, but they sound good, and are compact packages for what you get built in.

Enjoy.
Moo


Posted by: warwickhunt May 11 2007, 10:14 PM

QUOTE(Moo @ May 10 2007, 09:05 PM)
I recently read in a post on Studiotips.com that you must E.Q. with your eyes closed, otherwise there is a tendency to make pretty patterns with the E.Q. rather than set it for the best sound!

Food for thought . . .
Moo.


Sorry for the paraphrasing.

'EQing with your eyes closed', I can totally appreciate.

Many moons ago a bassist I respected plugged into my amp (we were sharing the billing and I had a Trace Elliott 4x10 & 1x15 with an old Acoustic amp... a very mismatched but successful coupling). His regular amp was a TE so he plugged in and proceeded to set the EQ to his usual smiley curve (though the Acoustic had a very limited graphic compared to the TE and the sliders were set at COMPLETELY different centres). This was done without even turning the amp on! He fired it up and it was an awful sound but he pumped away for a while and proceeded to state that it was fine. I'd seen him many times with his band and the sound he had out of my amp was not doing him or the band any favours and it was making me look bad as it was my gear. I tried telling him but he said that was 'his sound'... b*ll*cks it was his visual shape from his TE EQ.

It taught me a very valuable lesson. [/i]

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Hi all.. sorry for the MASSIVE post, but I have copied over the thread from BassTalk.. as I have some more ramblings to add!

Ok.. Last week I had a wander down to London, to try out some different cabs. I also went off to the fantastic Bass Merchant over in Witham yesterday. It looks like I have found two possibilities that are floating my boat at the moment soundwise.

I have to admit the 'single cab solution' didn't really surprise me when it came to producing what I'd hoped for. Although the full effect was WAY better than I originally thought. I wanted to find a single cab that could sound bigger than its actual size. (Does that make sense?) a Huge sound that made up for the fact it was just a single cab.

Well.. in the absence of a stock of Tech cabs to try.. This fella is holding pole position:-



Fantastic cab! I met a guy in the Gallery who also had a good thrash through the cab and we decided it was literally eating the other cabs in the shop that I tried, for breakfast. I have to say, as a single cab. I love it. As far as I have found out, it's 2 3x10's in one box. Very light and.. well.. here's the specs:-

[quote]UL-610
When you need to move air you have to have speakers -and the more the better! The UL-610 was a custom design made exclusively for bass legends Daryl Jones (Rolling Stones) and Christian McBride but we were so impressed with the results that the UL-610 has now become part of our standard production line. This monster is equipped with six 250 watt Epifani 10" drivers that handle an astonishing 1500 watts (RMS) of power. Utilizing two separate isolation chambers, the UL-610 delivers unsurpassed clarity and accuracy even at high decibel levels.[/quote]

Speaker: 6 x 250w RMS Cast Aluminum Frame
100w RMS Tweeter
Freq Response: 40hz - 16khz
Power Rating: 1500w RMS (3750w Peak)
4 Ohms
Suggested Wattage: 400w - 2000w
Sensitivity: 104db SPL @ 1w 1m
Recessed Handles
Dimensions: 42" H x 23" W x 18.25" D
82 lbs.

and then we have the '2 cab solution'.

I played through piles and piles of 'smaller cabs' to find something that I liked.....

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I had Warwick cabs, MarkBass cabs, SWR, Trace.. all sorts to play with!!

For a two cabs solution, I was looking for a cabinet that was able to produce a BIG sound (for practicing) but add a second cab so I could retain my stereo rig. I do love that big wide sound that fills the room (especially as Kaos7 are a 3 piece at the moment)

I felt a little let down by even some of the larger 6x10 cabs in comparison to .. unbelieveably.. these:-



[quote]GS 212

Because it has the same full-bodied tone as the GS 112 this cabinet can be found in all styles of music from Rock to Jazz and from Reggae to Metal. For bass players who love the sound of our GS 112 but need more volume this is the perfect cabinet.

Specs

Two 12" cast frame woofers, 56 oz. magnets

Power handling: 600 watts

Impedance: 4 or 8 ohms

Phenolic tweeter with integral phase plug

Custom crossover with variable tweeter control

One Neutrik Speakon and two 1/4" inputs

Frequency response: 41 Hz to 16 kHz

Sensitivity: 103 dB @ 1W 1M

Casters included

Recessed deep-dish handles

Interlocking corners

Dimensions: 24"H x 22.50"W x 16.625"D

7-ply, void free Philippine mahogany

Weight: 70 lbs.

Warranty: Three year limited[/quote]

I was able to finally take the 4x12 version for a spin too!! A few weeks ago I asked for a review of the 412 from Robbie (Rimm Basses). He very kindly did a comparison between that and his Whappo Jr from Accugroove. Thanks Robbie! It ended up being a great help, and I agree!

Interestingly, I found that the 412 although having a bigger overall sound, appeared to have less bottom end in comaparison to a single GS 212. I also thought that the GS212 had a smoother tone and deeper bottom end that the Aggie 4x10 too. The difference in tone, as described on the day at Bass Merchant unfortunately cant be printed, but lets just say it included the word 'spanking'. My thoughts are, that 2 212's would make an awesome stack and really complimented Doodle's sound.

Whilst I was down at BM I quite fancied playing through an EBS 650 head. HOLY MOTHER OF {something I cant type} I was absolutely blown away with it, plugged into the Aggies! I am even thinking about getting that head and an Aggie cab.A [i]complete[/i] departure from what I had intended to do.

I very nearly handed over a lot of cash! But I managed to walk away to think about it.

I now have a big choice to make. 2 cabs, or 1 cab. oh.. and I wouldn't mind that amp!!

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Ok here goes...


I'm going to try out the Epifani UL-610. Its on its way....

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[quote name='dood' post='9859' date='May 31 2007, 01:26 PM']Ok here goes...
I'm going to try out the Epifani UL-610. Its on its way....[/quote]

Would love to A/B our cabs!

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It's a date! ;o) So would I!!! I'm hoping to take delivery tomozz.

My thoughts (in comparison to my Techs) are that the Techs will have a clearer upper mid, making the solo voice more 'vocal'. I am expecting that the bottom end will be higher up in the 100Hz+ region on the Techs too. In comparison, I think the Epi will sound deeper and will have a more sizzling top end, giving the cab a flatter, even slightly scooped sound. Either way I am expecting them to sound very different from each other.. and there will probably be aspects of the Techs I will miss. possibly.

My Techs suited my Elite 6 and Tobias basses a lot better than Doodle. Doodle has a pronounced upper mid quality to it.. so the 'scooped' sound from the Epi may well be better suited to that bass.

Expect a full review soon then!

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Good lad! Like the sound of that John!

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*sings* There's a new cab on its way.. a new cab on its way.. I hope to have some info for you all later!

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She's here! She's here! Yippeee!!! Though it's too late to crank her up... noooooooo... so I plugged into the stereo to see how it fairs. BLIMEY!

Already I am surprised at how good this cab sounds with just normal HIFI audio. I cant wait to hear what the cab sounds like up loud. I guess I'll be doing a full review for you all at the weekend.

[quote]UL-610
When you need to move air you have to have speakers -and the more the better! The UL-610 was a custom design made exclusively for bass legends Daryl Jones (Rolling Stones) and Christian McBride but we were so impressed with the results that the UL-610 has now become part of our standard production line. This monster is equipped with six 250 watt Epifani 10" drivers that handle an astonishing 1500 watts (RMS) of power. Utilizing two separate isolation chambers, the UL-610 delivers unsurpassed clarity and accuracy even at high decibel levels.[/quote]

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[quote name='dood' post='12191' date='Jun 4 2007, 11:34 PM']
She's here! She's here! Yippeee!!! Though it's too late to crank her up... noooooooo... so I plugged into the stereo to see how it fairs. BLIMEY!

Already I am surprised at how good this cab sounds with just normal HIFI audio. I cant wait to hear what the cab sounds like up loud. I guess I'll be doing a full review for you all at the weekend.[/quote]

Dood, I'll be really interested to hear how this works out. I have fancied a 6x10 setup for quite a while but have been put off by the low end rumble most of them produce (like a fully laden jumbo jet taking off). Both the Ampeg and the SWR I have tried have this run-away low end sound that I couldn't tame with the amp eq. Let us know soon how yours works out please?

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Yowza. I think Gamble's SWR 6x10 sounds awesome. The Ampeg I tried sounded woolly and crap. Can't wait to hear your new cab Dood.

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Ooh that looks nice! Looks a tad difficult to move though. Does it not have a tilt back with wheels? Mind if I ask what they cost?
Glad you managed to try some Aguilar cabs in the end, am interested in the whole 2x2/12's versus 1x4/12 thing. Curious how they'd sound so different with the same speakers. Where the 2x12's quite big then?

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[quote name='peted' post='12210' date='Jun 4 2007, 11:56 PM']Yowza. I think Gamble's SWR 6x10 sounds awesome. The Ampeg I tried sounded woolly and crap. Can't wait to hear your new cab Dood.[/quote]

Yea I heard a guy with an Ampeg 6x10 a while ago. He managed to make an SVT2 sound terrible with it, he didn't have any weird or extreme eq going on either. Can't be a particularly good cab I don't think, maybe it was dodgy or something.

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[quote name='JPJ' post='12208' date='Jun 4 2007, 11:51 PM']Dood, I'll be really interested to hear how this works out. I have fancied a 6x10 setup for quite a while but have been put off by the low end rumble most of them produce (like a fully laden jumbo jet taking off). Both the Ampeg and the SWR I have tried have this run-away low end sound that I couldn't tame with the amp eq. Let us know soon how yours works out please?[/quote]

I think I know what you mean.When I tried the cab out in the shop, there wasnt any 'runaway' bottom end as such. Just 'extended girth' in comparison to 4x10's and 12's. The noticeable difference was if i had EQ'd for a smaller cab then plugged in the 6x'. I'd have to back the bass control off as the cab was so much more capable of producing that 'bottom' without having to crank the bass control. An idea I like. A lot. However, I do like to have a certain amount of 'kick' from my cabs, so the extended bottom end is very welcome. I hope to give the cab a good thrashing when the cones have 'broken in' a bit. I think the cab's voice will become a little more apparent then.

[quote name='peted' post='12210' date='Jun 4 2007, 11:56 PM']Yowza. I think Gamble's SWR 6x10 sounds awesome. The Ampeg I tried sounded woolly and crap. Can't wait to hear your new cab Dood.[/quote]

I had a play on the SWR and the MArkBass cabs down at Bass Merchant, along with the Warwick 611pro. I guess they would sound good with certain set ups, but I found the Warwick a little distant sounding, the MarkBass was good, but didnt give me the 'voicing' I was looking for and the SWR was really clear, but the tweeter let it down for me.Not so much bottom as the MB (which was the larger MB cab with the front facing ports). I'm not saying these were [email protected] cabs. They were all very capable. I am overtly fussy when it comes to gear!

[quote name='joegarcia' post='12212' date='Jun 4 2007, 11:58 PM']Ooh that looks nice! Looks a tad difficult to move though. Does it not have a tilt back with wheels? Mind if I ask what they cost?
Glad you managed to try some Aguilar cabs in the end, am interested in the whole 2x2/12's versus 1x4/12 thing. Curious how they'd sound so different with the same speakers. Where the 2x12's quite big then?[/quote]

The cab is a mere 40kg, so it's a one man lift!! The handles on the side are in the right place for a big fella like me too. It has some lovely big rubber wheels and the usual tilt back handle built into the cab, so, no towel rail sticking out. The UK RRP is around 1200 quid and to be honest, importing and the additional 'costs' didnt make it worth the price difference I agreed on.(I had a bit of a deal including shipping!)

The aggies were excellent. I was sooo close to getting the 212's for a stereo set up. I have to admit, that in the shop, I found that the 212's performed better bottom than the 412. Again, the 412 was very impressive,but the weight of such a hooj cab put me off a wee bit, as the Epi' is so much lighter for a big cab. The aggies are very capable and in the absence of the Epi, I would have jumped straight on them.Awesome!
Bass Merchant were once again BRILLIANT with me and deserve a pat on the back for such patience with one of the fussiest (spelling??) customers! lol lol

oh.. I think the 2x12 cabinet is larger than half the size of the 412. Mebbe its the way they are ported? hmmm.. an interesting investigation to be had!


[quote name='joegarcia' post='12216' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:00 AM']Yea I heard a guy with an Ampeg 6x10 a while ago. He managed to make an SVT2 sound terrible with it, he didn't have any weird or extreme eq going on either. Can't be a particularly good cab I don't think, maybe it was dodgy or something.[/quote]

In general, I find Ampeg cabs to be middley with a rolled off top end.Mixed with the wrong amp and bass, it sounds muddy and lacking in clarity. On the flipside, with the right combination they can sound awesome.
Not my cup o' tea though!!

Dan

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