Time signatures

[thunderbird13]

I understand the basics of time signatures but I was trying to play some Genesis last night and it went something like one bar in 4/4 one in 2/4 one in 15/16 and one in 7/8 before repeating itself. Is it the only way to play this one bar at a time or is there an easy way of counting the bars ands what’s the best way of counting 15/16 . Sorry if this is a stupid question

[Bilbo]

Which Genesis track (never heard of 15/16) - its about breaking it down to manageable chunks. 7/4 can be a 3 and a 4 or a 4 and a 3. 5/4 can be a 4 and a 1, a 3 and a 2 of a 2 and a 3. I would expect 15/16 to be 3 4s and a 3. To be horrible blunt. if its Genesis, its unlikely to be that complicated. They tend to think in one bar patterns and don't cross bar lines much.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='724228' date='Jan 25 2010, 04:16 PM']Which Genesis track (never heard of 15/16) - its about breaking it down to manageable chunks. 7/4 can be a 3 and a 4 or a 4 and a 3. 5/4 can be a 4 and a 1, a 3 and a 2 of a 2 and a 3. I would expect 15/16 to be 3 4s and a 3. To be horrible blunt. if its Genesis, its unlikely to be that complicated. They tend to think in one bar patterns and don't cross bar lines much.[/quote]

The track is The Firth of Fifth , the instrumental bit after the flute solo .I did get the tab off guitar pro so it may be suspect ,although to me it sounds accurate. I agree that Genesis aren’t that complicated but for a player of my standard it is a challenge.
Still even if its not totally accurate I’d like to play it as it’s written as its good practice in time signatures which is something I'm weak on

[51m0n]

15/16 is theoretically as viable as 11/8 or 7/8, but I've never knowingly heard 15/16 (could be cool though!

I've certainly heard 11/8 before, a cracking lopsided lope to it

[Bilbo]

Just listening to it and have to say, I had forgotten how good some of this stuff is.

The time signatures are all over the place. The bit I think you are thinking is 15/8 actually a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 7/8 (8+7 is 15). So, yes, it is technically 15/8 although it can be broken down more easily. All they are effectively doing is dropping a beat every second bar (it gets more complicated than that as there are bars of 3, 4 and 7 alternating here and there). It is easy enough to count as they have a note on every sub-division (i.e. 15 notes across 15 quavers).

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='51m0n' post='724267' date='Jan 25 2010, 04:50 PM']15/16 is theoretically as viable as 11/8 or 7/8, but I've never knowingly heard 15/16 (could be cool though!)[/quote]
15/16 and 19/16 have been favourites in my band. We play them like 4/4 and 5/4 respectively, but with a semiquaver missing off the end. It's like you're adding a semiquaver "push" into the next bar, but the "push" [b]IS[/b] the start of the next bar. Even more fun when you stick in a full bar of 4/4 or 5/4 into the groove every now and then... so the push becomes a real push, just for that bar. Here's a much-simplified version of our 19/16 groove (unfortunately MuseScore is a little recalcitrant when it comes to beaming, so the fourth beat of each bar won't beam over the rest ):


Another one that crops up a lot for us is 9/8, but not as a compound signature. More like 4/4 with an extra quaver, so it might be more easily written as something like 2/4 + 5/8. Sounds like a normal riff gone wrong.

Sorry -- none of this is related to the OP.

[Igor Gribov]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='724056' date='Jan 25 2010, 02:36 PM']Sorry if this is a stupid question[/quote]
a question may be incorrect, but not stupid

It`s very good what you create a questions and ask it to people

a lot worse, if the questions don`t spring up

I dont know the song of Genesis in 15/16,but I think the best way of counting 15/16 is this way- You`re playing 4/4 with subdivision(ritm pulsation=16th note) and just dont play last subdivision. When smb listens this odd time that it seems as permanent displacement.This metre occurs with feeling of shortage smth
It`s very difficult for hearing,at first
But It`s very interesting when you begin to understand it.

[51m0n]

Igor is right on the money.

A great example of 11/8 is Eleven by Primus (what a witty title):-



Even the bonkers drum intro is in 11/8

Takes a while to get your head around it, but once you do playing this is an absolute blast!

[robocorpse]

CARDIACS - It's A Lovely Day
Nice example of 15/16 in the intro.

[robocorpse]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='724228' date='Jan 25 2010, 04:16 PM']To be horrible blunt. if its Genesis, its unlikely to be that complicated. They tend to think in one bar patterns and don't cross bar lines much.[/quote]

Except for the love it or hate it solo section in "Robbery Assault And Battery" which is an absolute pig when the drums go to stabs while Tony plays that organ run that sounds like it was nicked from "won't get fooled again". Its either staying in 13/8 and going out of time with itself (likely) or Phil's trying to do something clever and fudging it (likely) but its wonderfully confusing listening to Genesis after Phil decided to try his hand at Jazz Fusion. I like to think of it as a happy accident.

[Igor Gribov]

[quote name='robocorpse' post='726194' date='Jan 27 2010, 01:04 PM']CARDIACS - It's A Lovely Day
Nice example of 15/16 in the intro.

[/quote]

Yes! Good example!! It seems what smb perennially step on ("accent beat"("violent time") I dont now how say this term more rightly!!???

Correct me please!! "first note in measure= "........ ...... "

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Igor Gribov' post='727212' date='Jan 28 2010, 03:36 AM']Correct me please!! "first note in measure= "........ ...... "[/quote]
Down-beat?

Or more colloquially known as "the one".

[Igor Gribov]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='727216' date='Jan 28 2010, 06:24 AM']Down-beat?

Or more colloquially known as "the one".[/quote]

it is possible.I dont know ))

2/4 |Down Beat /Off beat|Down Beat/Offbeat| etc

or "the one"

thanks. got it

[toneknob]

The time signatures in the Firth of Fifth instrumental are a pretty mixed bag and contain bars of 13/16 and 15/16, as mentioned earlier - the rest is pretty much 4/4, although sometimes subdivided to sound more tortuous: the second bar of the instrumental is 4/4 subdivided as 3, 3, 3, 3, 4. The 13s are best counted as 3, 3, 3, 4 and the 15s as 3, 3, 3, 6.

I've played this song about a million times with various Genesis tribute bands, so I'll vid a version of the instrumental later and post it here. See [url="http://www.youtube.com/user/toneknob"]http://www.youtube.com/user/toneknob[/url] for other Genesis basslines and (slightly fudgey) 12-string moments. I'll do the instrumental to Robbery as well if anyone's interested.

[toneknob]

Here you go: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhKqqbmJV_E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhKqqbmJV_E[/url]

Enjoy