Sound pressure level question.

[DTB]

I’ve taken down the dividing partition in my studio today, effectively doubling its size. I put it up in winter to reduce heating cost. 
If everything else remains the same, will this reduce the spl from the speakers as the sound has more space in which to dissipate. 
I can’t decide, because the extra space is behind the speakers/cabs, but it certainly sounds more spatial, better in actual fact, but isn’t due to reverberations because the space is well treated with acoustic dampening material. 

So the only thing I can think is that the spl is lower so the sound is ‘nicer’.???!!!

Anyway, someone with a bigger brain and more knowledge of this complicated subject than me, please help, but don’t use long words coz you’ll just confuddle me further. 

Thanks. 

[Balcro]

With the amplifier being the same and the speakers being in the same place, as well as you standing in the same place as before, the SPL will be the same. There will be very small changes to the overall frequency response because, by removing the partition you have made the longest diagonal of the studio bigger; this will allow longer wavelengths & hence lower frequencies, to propagate in the studio.

The SPL is wide band and not just fixed to low frequencies.

[DTB]

So the only way to reduce the spl is to increase the distance between speaker and ear. Is that correct?

[Balcro]

49 minutes ago, DTB said:

So the only way to reduce the spl is to increase the distance between speaker and ear. Is that correct?

 

That's the theory but probably not practicable inside a small studio. You might manage 1dB, but that is barely detectable by the ear.

[WinterMute]

Yes, physically, you can always turn the amp up and down.

 

The further you are from the speakers the lower the SPL and the more the room plays a part in the sound you hear as reflected sound become a larger component reaching your ears.

 

You will have altered the acoustics in the room as the sound will be active in the space behind the speakers, which will depend on the design of your speakers, rear v front port etc.

[WinterMute]

Just now, Balcro said:

 

That's the theory but probably not practicable inside a small studio. You might manage 1dB, but that is barely detectable by the ear.

 

It's usually described as 3db per meter from the point source, but speakers are complex sound generators and small rooms have nodes that will interact with some frequencies.

 

Bottom line: it'll be as loud as it was before but might sound a bit different.

[DTB]

Summer set up is always easier on the ears. I’ve moved the cabs/monitors back. 
Thanks for the input everyone. 

[itu]

2 hours ago, WinterMute said:

It's usually described as 3db per meter...

3 dB / doubling the distance: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16... m

[DTB]

Why is it that music especially guitar through a nice valve amp and cab always sounds better louder rather than quiet? Bass too, but to a lesser extent, meaning I get the same feeling from bass, that lovely in the zone kinda groovy with the beat feeling, at a lower volume. ???

[Downunderwonder]

Generally louder sounds better until it is too loud.

 

Removing the wall behind your speakers will have had some effect on the low end but mitigated by the room bouncing bass around much more than treble. Soggy though your walls may be they won't be perfect.

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, DTB said:

I’ve taken down the dividing partition in my studio today, effectively doubling its size. I put it up in winter to reduce heating cost. 
If everything else remains the same, will this reduce the spl from the speakers as the sound has more space in which to dissipate. 
I can’t decide, because the extra space is behind the speakers/cabs, but it certainly sounds more spatial, better in actual fact, but isn’t due to reverberations because the space is well treated with acoustic dampening material. 

So the only thing I can think is that the spl is lower so the sound is ‘nicer’.???!!!

Anyway, someone with a bigger brain and more knowledge of this complicated subject than me, please help, but don’t use long words coz you’ll just confuddle me further. 

Thanks. 

There will be all sorts of things going on in your room which will affect the sound. First of all your acoustic dampening won't stop reflections of the sound completely, merely reduce them. If you ever see pictures of the echo free rooms they use in universities and research facilities they have huge wedges of sound damping material some well over a metre deep completely lining every surface and even they don't trap everything. You can't achieve anything like this and as a result you'll have a lot of multiple pathways between you and the speakers.

Then the air in your room is itself resonant so you will set up standing waves in the air. All these are dependant upon how the distances involved compare to the wavelengths of the notes you are listening to.

All the resonances in the room will change when you changed the room dimensions, mainly moving down in frequency but the sound pressure level at any point in the room will vary at every spot in the room. Even slight repositioning of the speakers or moving your head slightly will change the sound.

All the reflections have to travel further to reach your ears so what happens depends upon how long the delay is. Some reflections will arrive in time (actually in phase but you didn't want technical) with the note you are listening to and will make it louder and others will be out of time so the pressure waves cancel and make that sound quieter. All this changes the frequency response at the place you are standing

 

However sound decays over distance. In open space by 6db for every doubling of distance. In a bigger room the difference between the distance the reflected sound travels will be greater and for the most part the reflected sound will have less energy than the direct sound and so you will experience a cleaner sound at most frequencies. Most of the resonances will have dropped in frequency too and your hearing isn't as good down there so the overall impression will be of an 'airier' sound unless you set off new low frequency resonances.

 

In the end probably the best thing to do is just enjoy your 'summer sound' but if you wanted you can download some lovely room analysers on your phone and see which frequencies are changing, some of them show spectral decay so you can see the echoes dying away.

[DTB]

Thanks for that detailed answer @Phil Starr, I will certainly enjoy my summer sound. 
one last thing, would I be correct in thinking that all things being equal a 2x10 will produce half the SPL of a 4x10? Or have I got that wrong as well lol. 

[Phil Starr]

19 minutes ago, DTB said:

all things being equal a 2x10 will produce half the SPL of a 4x10?

Sort of, at the same power it will give you 3db extra which would take a doubling of the amplifier power. (pedantry alert) 

 

But:

• just plugging in in an extra 2x10 would have the impedance and draw double the power(so long as the amp can cope)  and add another 3db; so that would give 6db
• it would double the power handling so at full power that's 9db extra potentially.
• at lower power the speakers will be sharing the load so won't get so hot and hot speakers can lose 2-3db easily
• adding extra speakers will change the frequency response and change your subjective experience of the sound.

 

You did say "all things being equal" so you were spot on. 

[DTB]

I have found today that it isn’t necessarily the bass speakers causing the problem. Due to my pain levels being particularly high I haven’t been playing, but just chilling in the studio listening to some tunes using my Genelec 8010s and it wasn’t particularly loud but one particular track with a female vocalist really set my tinnitus off and I think the problems lies in the tweeters of the Genelecs. They are set up mostly in line with the manual. I repositioned them today as they were angled in as per instructions so they now aren’t and they seemed a little less harsh but also lacked a bit of detail. 
Can anyone give me any ideas on how to get rid of a harsh tweeter sound or recommend a warm sounding small monitor or hifi bookshelf speaker. The 8010s are tiny and bloody expensive. 
I had a nice set of absolute zero speakers years ago but they kind of died and the Genelecs replaced them. The tweeters on those were hidden behind a wad of black fabric. Maybe there lies the key?

I know the white Yamaha (NS10?) monitors always seem to have tissue paper over the tweeters. 

[DTB]

Think I’ve fixed it. Had some art work in studio that my wife did. Think the tweeters were reflecting off those. 

[Balcro]

21 hours ago, DTB said:

Can anyone give me any ideas on how to get rid of a harsh tweeter sound or recommend a warm sounding small monitor or hifi bookshelf speaker. The 8010s are tiny and bloody expensive. 
I had a nice set of absolute zero speakers years ago but they kind of died and the Genelecs replaced them. The tweeters on those were hidden behind a wad of black fabric. Maybe there lies the key?

I know the white Yamaha (NS10?) monitors always seem to have tissue paper over the tweeters. 

 

If you've got very sensitive ears, the first thing to do is to steer clear of "studio monitors". Likewise for studio monitor or "pro" headphones. Most of these have elevated treble to bring out the "edge" / detail in sounds for the benefit of music producers, (many of whom are slightly deaf from years of being blasted with high volume sounds").

 

You could re-align the speakers so that they're more off-axis from your listening position. If that doesn't work, you could try adding some sort of drape or curtaining into the room to raise the absorption.

 

A possible left-field solution:- Monitor Audio Radius 45. - the tweeter is at the back!! Put some absorbent behind them. Good luck.

[itu]

7 hours ago, Balcro said:

...studio monitor or "pro" headphones. Most of these have elevated treble to bring out the "edge" / detail in sounds for the benefit of music producers, (many of whom are slightly deaf from years of being blasted with high volume sounds").

Now I want you to show some real evidence. That "edge" sounds funny. And if you say producers are slightly deaf, you certainly know something I do not.

 

High quality studio monitors tend to have flat response compared to some PA stuff people have funnily labeled as FRFR.

 

What is true is that monitors have to be fitted to the room. If you, @DTB have not done that thoroughly, yet, there's work to be done. Harsh sound does not mean there's problem with monitors, but you just need to get back and continue with the adjustments.

 

Monitors can be very clear, while plain hifi speakers are usually more forgiving even though their frequency responses may look equal. Do not get mixed with sharp sound and freq. response.

Edited March 12, 2023 by itu

[DTB]

The thing is my music space is quite small. As I’ve posted on here before I am disabled and I repurposed and extended the shed where I used to store my motorcycles before I was. 
It is insulated for heat and sound, and extensively treated for acoustics. 
However it measures about 3m x 2.8m. 
I have found any small variations in the inside can have a drastic effect on the sound. I removed some artwork that was at ear height and was in line with the tweaters and it has fixed all the harsh problems. I was picking up reflections. The Genelecs are back to sounding great again. 
I go with a slightly wider spacing than purists would argue is perfect as I have always preferred a wider stereo image since I had my first proper hifi as a young teenager. Some argue that that is at the expense of the soundstage image but it’s how I like it. So long as the harshness is gone. 
I went with the 8010 Genelecs as they are perfectly suited to small rooms and keep the SPL and tinnitus down. 
My 916i Mordaunt Shorts sound better, but they lift the roof off and once I’m thumping away on the bass to a BT any nuance is lost anyway. 

[Balcro]

15 hours ago, itu said:

Now I want you to show some real evidence. That "edge" sounds funny. And if you say producers are slightly deaf, you certainly know something I do not.

 

High quality studio monitors tend to have flat response compared to some PA stuff people have funnily labeled as FRFR.

 

 

https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/beyerdynamic-dt-880-pro-studio-headphone-review#pros

 

https://homedjstudio.com/beyerdynamic-dt-880-pro-review/

 

It's all there in the CONS.

[DTB]

Hey @Balcro, those monitor audio speakers look very interesting. Might give those a try. Thanks. 

[DTB]

Did a bit of playing again this morning and my ears are ringing again. If I had the bass any quieter I would not have been able to hear it. I’m sure it’s the monitors even though they are not sounding harsh now. 
https://www.genelec.com/8010a#section-technical-specifications

 

[itu]

4 hours ago, Balcro said:

https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/beyerdynamic-dt-880-pro-studio-headphone-review#pros

 

https://homedjstudio.com/beyerdynamic-dt-880-pro-review/

 

It's all there in the CONS.

That's one product in the field of speakers and headphones. I would call that a generalization. Where can I find the data where producers have been analyzed as slightly deaf?

[Balcro]

The answer is all over the internet.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/apr/23/musicians-hearing-loss-sound-of-metal

 

See Myles Kennedy and Eleanor Goodman

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https://producersociety.com/tips-for-music-producers-hearing-loss/

 

Record producers suffering hearing loss

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https://www.healthyhearing.com/report/53196-Musicians-tinnitus-and-hearing-loss
"But most challenging of all is that most musicians keep their tinnitus secret out of fear that it will affect their public and professional reputation, which leads to only greater suffering and isolation. This is especially true for people on the production and engineering side of the music business."

_______________________________________________________________________________

 

https://downbeats.com/10-famous-musicians-with-hearing-loss/

 

Moby’s permanent hearing damage came early in his career, when he was playing in a lot of punk bands and before he made his name as an electronic music producer.

______________________________________________________________________________

 

https://www.thecavanproject.com/musicians-hearing-loss/

See particularly 4,5 & 6 from the list.

______________________________________________________________________________

 

https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/famous-deaf-musicians/

 

Ayumi Hamasaki and Neil Young.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/comments/pchob/any_other_hardofhearingdeaf_producers_or_music/

"Brian Wilson is deaf in one ear and was a pretty brilliant arranger and producer. I'm a professional mixer/engineer/producer and have some hearing loss - mainly high frequency attenuation, and from my own observation, a dip in 3-4k as well... either that or I just like to make guitars really gnarly sounding and overdo it in those ranges."

 

[DTB]

Wow!

[itu]

While working in a big broadcasting company, I met a league of sound engineers and professional personnel working with audio, or audio and video. They held meetings together and tested not only equipment, but their hearing, too.

 

They covered every music genre. Yes, some were players, too, but many were purely listeners - and really excellent ones. I wouldn't say that they suffered from hearing issues.

 

Yes, hearing loss is a true problem. Many young (and some old, too) think that ear is repairing itself after some time. No, it doesn't. There's a limited amount of hearing cells in the inner ear. When they fall, they're gone. But equipment is still built for normal hearing, not for "half deaf".

(I started measuring equipment in an anechoic room while studying acoustics some decades ago.)