Encouraging words from Mike Pope

[bassjamm]

[b][center]* just posted this in the general forum but thought it'd sit in here too *[/center][/b]


Hello everyone,

I've been in contact with Mike Pope this week. For those of you who don't know who he is, he's one of the top players over the US, based in NY i think. He's well known within the Double Bass circles, but he's also an awesome electric bass player...he's pretty hot at this game to say the lease. He's also the guy he designs and manufactures the pre-amps found in the Fodera basses. Google him...

Sorry for that if you already knew of him.

Anyway, i've been in touch about pre-amps, but I though i'd take the chance to ask him some questions about harmony and technique. To briefly explain...it seems to me that most top players who i've asked, or heard other people ask about harmony, getting better etc...they all seem to say stuff like get to a college, practice 6 hours a day, do loads of technique exercises, stuff that i personally find tedious and hard! But i want to get better, to improve. So i but that to him...here's my original message and Mike's reply (i asked him if i can post it, he's cool with it) -

Bassjamm:
[i]A slight side point, more with regards to playing. I respect your playing a lot, and from the material i have of yours, or with you playing, i really find it interesting. I was wondering what tips you may have for young players looking to master the bass? At the moment i feel my chops are slightly slow, but more so, that my knowledge of harmony is limiting me. I'm in no position to go to college to learn, but i practice at home as often as possible. Do you have any thoughts or excercises that you think would help someone to broaden their knowledge?[/i]

And here's what Mike replied with -

Mike Pope:
[i]As for your harmonic knowledge...use Oteil Burbridge for example. All that complicated harmonic stuff he plays... He doesn't know the first thing about harmony in an academic sense. That certainly doesn't keep him from playing it. So don't get hung up because you don't know what something is. If you can hear it, recognize it, play it, and use it musically, you know what it is. Period. If you need to communicate it to someone else who doesn't get it (naturally anyway), then you need to know what it is. But that's easy once you're actually playing it. So focus on what you want to play and understand it in a way that let's you make music with it. As for agility on your instrument, there are a million books out there with exercises you can use...but the best way to learn your way around your instrument is in an effort to make music. Not, "I wanna sound like Joe Shmoe", but like you're playing a piece of music. Trying to make music in the HERE AND NOW is the best way to get better. Not playing exercises in the interest of making music later.[/i]

I just found that really encouraging and felt like it's advice that, if i put it into action (that's the catch), then i'll definately benefit from it. It's already helped me to change the way i view my practice routine, how i view transcription and things.

I hope that this will help some of you as much as it has me!

Thanks
Jamie

[bass_ferret]

So good you posted it twice.

A good way is to sing harmonies, hum them in your head if you like, then learn to play what you are humming. Its not easy and I am too lazy to persevere TBH, but learning to play what you hear in your head is worth doing if you want to master the melodic side of playing.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='217319' date='Jun 12 2008, 12:47 AM']A good way is to sing harmonies, hum them in your head if you like, then learn to play what you are humming. Its not easy and I am too lazy to persevere TBH, but learning to play what you hear in your head is worth doing if you want to master the melodic side of playing.[/quote]

I've been working on that for a while...my vocal abilities alone have sky rocketed, but the only application to bass so far has been that i'm able to find the notes i'm hear/singing quicker. Which is obviously a good thing!

[mcgraham]

Those are indeed encouraging words. Really good of him to take the time to correspond with you.

Some of us do get caught up in just sheer technicality without any musicality, others become complacent/content with 'nice' music and never bother to improve their technical facility which should in turn serve their music. Either way, it's important to remember that exercises and technical ability are not an end in themselves, but just a means to an end, the end being creating music and saying something musically.

Mark

[bassjamm]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='217374' date='Jun 12 2008, 09:02 AM']Those are indeed encouraging words. Really good of him to take the time to correspond with you.

Some of us do get caught up in just sheer technicality without any musicality, others become complacent/content with 'nice' music and never bother to improve their technical facility which should in turn serve their music. Either way, it's important to remember that exercises and technical ability are not an end in themselves, but just a means to an end, the end being creating music and saying something musically.

Mark[/quote]

Yeah Mark, wise words...you're good at that

I think what moved me the most with regards to what Mike wrote was that he high lighted the need to just make music to improve. Not to get bogged down in all the rudaments etc. But it's helped me to take a different view of my technical pursuits, i'm trying to apply them as soon as i can now, rather than just rigidly practice them over and over out of context.

Mark - what helped you to get your head into all the Hiromi stuff, and to develop your ability in order to play all of that?

[mcgraham]

[quote]Mark - what helped you to get your head into all the Hiromi stuff, and to develop your ability in order to play all of that?[/quote]

Drawing on what dlloyd said, it's all about training your ears to recognise things such that you know (at least sonically, not necessarily intellectually) what is being played just by listening. Note, this does not necessarily require an instrument.
What helped me was: Transcription, modes (or at least a packet of various scales) and noodling. Above all listen to what is being produced when you do these.

Transcription helps you to broaden your horizons musically, introduce some fresh ideas into your playing, see things from another persons perspective, and ultimately do things you don't do naturally. Start small though, don't try for too much to soon as it may get you downhearted. Try making a list of 5 'things' you want to understand from a song and work towards them. Maybe balance them out so there's some that it's just the chord progression you want to know, some that it's a signature phrase you want to know, some where it's coping with the time signature etc.

Modes (I've mentioned these before) are useful collection of notes/intervals that help to train your ear. Every possible interval available in an octave is contained in at least one of these. Therefore, if you practice them (try looking for some lessons from Satriani on these, I really like his approach) and listen to the sound of the intervals, you'll eventually start to understand what each interval sounds like, then you have the building blocks to improvise freely. You can then construct any scale, phrase etc, and (theoretically) you can figure out what they sound like without an instrument.

Random noodling, useless if you don't listen, amazingly useful if you pay attention to what you're doing. I found that in doing this you are essentially trying to break at least somewhat free from patterns and structures you have been told, or already know, or feel constrained by, e.g. think of blues guitarists, rarely do they come out anything new to 'say', as they are confined (more or less) by their typical scales (which is perhaps why average guitarists all sound like blues guitarists). Try to play in varying shades of random and try being erratic in your note choice, be completely chromatic, or non-diatonic, or moving between the two, maybe straying away from one key, return to it... or maybe not? Just be adventurous and see what you come up with. Be sure to listen what you're playing, and try repeating odd phrases with different rhythms, accents, tempos, feels etc. That way you're hearing ideas that people have rarely heard because they don't think to look (or listen!) there. I've unlocked so many useful phrases from that it's unreal!

Anyway, post is long enough. Hope that helps.

[XB26354]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='217499' date='Jun 12 2008, 11:32 AM']think of blues guitarists, rarely do they come out anything new to 'say', as they are confined (more or less) by their typical scales (which is perhaps why average guitarists all sound like blues guitarists). Try to play in varying shades of random and try being erratic in your note choice, be completely chromatic, or non-diatonic, or moving between the two, maybe straying away from one key, return to it... or maybe not?[/quote]
Not forgetting that Jazz comes from the Blues and has the Blues at it's root.
Try working out Straight, No Chaser, as it is a perfect example of a chromatic melody over a 12-bar Blues.
The solos have a Blues element but definitely lean more towards jazz.
When practicing don't forget about chord tones - by playing chord tones with chromatic approach notes above and below you can make instant jazz
And the golden rule when transcribing - learn it! Write it out if you want, but it is far more important to learn to play what you're working out, with the same feel as the original - when you can play along with the record and what you play is indistinguishable from the record, you've nailed it.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Not forgetting that Jazz comes from the Blues and has the Blues at it's root.[/quote] Perhaps historically, but I really don't hear it like that.

[quote]When practicing don't forget about chord tones - by playing chord tones with chromatic approach notes above and below you can make instant jazz[/quote] I never liked that approach.

[quote]And the golden rule when transcribing - learn it! Write it out if you want, but it is far more important to learn to play what you're working out, with the same feel as the original - when you can play along with the record and what you play is indistinguishable from the record, you've nailed it.[/quote] Agreed. At the same time however, I would encourage people not to get downhearted if you're finding something difficult to nail 100%, getting close to something shows progress at least, and that's something to be proud of.

Mark

Edited June 12, 2008 by mcgraham

[wulf]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='217651' date='Jun 12 2008, 01:48 PM']Agreed. At the same time however, I would encourage people not to get downhearted if you're finding something difficult to nail 100%, getting close to something shows progress at least, and that's something to be proud of.[/quote]
For me, the golden rule of transcribing is sketch the outlines first and then start filling in the details. You might end up with many unfinished sketches but that is probably a better foundation for live jazz than one or two completed masterpieces back in your study but limited facility to grasp the music as it develops and synthesise something that fits it.

Wulf

ps. Some great advice from Mike Pope above!

[mcgraham]

Wulf- I'd say I do something like the 'sketches' then filling in the details. I start with the obvious, then work towards the less obvious, the stuff that expands your ears/listening.

Mark

[bassjamm]

All very interesting stuff guys!!! Thanks for the thoughts!

[mcgraham]

You've inspired me to get back into Hiromi's stuff and transcribing it. Her group sounds soooo much fuller now she has an electric guitar in it.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='217872' date='Jun 12 2008, 07:42 PM']You've inspired me to get back into Hiromi's stuff and transcribing it. Her group sounds soooo much fuller now she has an electric guitar in it.[/quote]

I got one of her earlier albums a while back - 'Another Mind'. I've not yet listened to it all that much. From what i have heard though, i prefer the more recent stuff.

Listening to Weather Report - Heavy Weather, and Mike Stern - Voices at the moment...oh, and The RH Factor - Hard Groove. All wicked albums!

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='217872' date='Jun 12 2008, 07:42 PM']You've inspired me to get back into Hiromi's stuff and transcribing it. Her group sounds soooo much fuller now she has an electric guitar in it.[/quote]


Dave Fiukzynski is a good guitarist, but I think he kind of takes over a bit on the last album, my favourite has to be 'Brain' with Anthony Jackson on bass, as well as Tony Grey.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I got one of her earlier albums a while back - 'Another Mind'. I've not yet listened to it all that much. From what i have heard though, i prefer the more recent stuff.[/quote] Yes her stuff has definitely improved, though after transcribing her stuff I'm increasingly more impressed by her arranging and compositional ability.

[quote]Dave Fiukzynski is a good guitarist, but I think he kind of takes over a bit on the last album, my favourite has to be 'Brain' with Anthony Jackson on bass, as well as Tony Grey.[/quote] I disagree. However I will say I'm not a fan of the mix on the Time Control, it feels very plain. On top of that I greatly disapprove of Fuze's choice of effects/effected sounds on the album, I have no idea what he was thinking. Check out the live videos of the stuff on youtube, IMHO a [i]significant[/i] better rendition of their pieces. The video of 'Time Out' is absolutely electric.

EDIT: Here's the link [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu6agePRtzk"]Time Out[/url]

Mark

Edited June 13, 2008 by mcgraham

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='218072' date='Jun 13 2008, 06:57 AM']I disagree. However I will say I'm not a fan of the mix on the Time Control, it feels very plain. On top of that I greatly disapprove of Fuze's choice of effects/effected sounds on the album, I have no idea what he was thinking. Check out the live videos of the stuff on youtube, IMHO a [i]significant[/i] better rendition of their pieces. The video of 'Time Out' is absolutely electric.

EDIT: Here's the link [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu6agePRtzk"]Time Out[/url]

Mark[/quote]

That's kind of what I was getting at, his sounds are just wrong, and he is mixed too high.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='XB26354' post='217600' date='Jun 12 2008, 01:44 PM']And the golden rule when transcribing - learn it! Write it out if you want, but it is far more important to learn to play what you're working out, with the same feel as the original - when you can play along with the record and what you play is indistinguishable from the record, you've nailed it.[/quote]

I disagree, I think it's far more useful to take something, and use it as a springboard for creating your own ideas.

I've transcribed solos and ideas by Coltrane and Miles Davis, and lines by people like Jimmy Garrison and Paul Chambers, to see what they're playing, and to try and understand what they were thinking. I'll then use those ideas to create my own.

That's what I was taught anyway.

[BigBeefChief]

Isn't it about time that angry fella with the toothache showed up and started ranting?

Edited June 13, 2008 by BigBeefChief

[mcgraham]

[quote]That's kind of what I was getting at, his sounds are just wrong, and he is mixed too high.[/quote] I wouldn't say they're just wrong, I just don't know what he was going for. The tone on Time Out makes me think of bubbles, it's pretty bad.

[quote]And the golden rule when transcribing - learn it! Write it out if you want, but it is far more important to learn to play what you're working out, with the same feel as the original - when you can play along with the record and what you play is indistinguishable from the record, you've nailed it.[/quote] To learn something from the act of transcribing a piece, you don't [i]have[/i] to learn it 100% dead on, and as 6stringbassist said, you can use even a little bit of transcribed material as a springboard for your own ideas. However if you transcribe a whole piece and learn it as XB said, you will obviously gain more than if you did only some of a piece, and can only play it moderately accurately.

Mark