Rickenbacker 4003 Action

[waldflote8]

Hello folks,

sort of first post, so Hi to everyone.

After many years of looking, close calls etc. I finally managed to get a hold of a 4003. She looks to be in pretty good condition (couple of dings) no real signs of fret wear etc.

The action was very high to begin with; 15 mm or so at the end of the fretboard but there was a lot of relief in the neck, so I've gradually brought that down to about 10mm by adjusting the truss rods.

My bridge is bottomed out though so wondering how best to get the last few mms shaved off the action - eg. file the saddle slots ?

She's certainly playable at the moment and sounds very nice (pickup outputs not very balanced at the moment, but will work on that after re stringing). Current strings look to be 45 - 105s,.. maybe even originals as I don't think she's been played much. (2006 model)

For the dings, I was thinking of mixing some powder dies with laquer and building that up.

One ding is right through the binding - any good suggestions for filling a binding cut/gash ?

thanks..

Edited May 13, 2013 by waldflote8

[spacey]

As a owner and player of Several, some lighter strings and raising the pickups will give a better action and tone, the heavy strings can clip the pickups so you have to drop them loosing sustain, you also have this battle of neck tension verse heavy strings, try some lighter new strings, dont touch the rods, they will pull in the neck over about a week, they are more like pressure tensioners than normal truss rods, so the neck will pull back on its own, and you can raise the pickups to get that lovely piano tone association without the clipping produced by heavy strings .

[brensabre79]

Hey welcome to basschat.

[color=#800000]I'll first of all say that Rickenbacker truss rods are NOT like normal truss rods. So [u]DO NOT follow any instructions you find for adjusting a truss rod on anything but a Rickenbacker bass[/u]. The process is different and if you don't follow, you could end up trashing your bass! not trying to scaremonger, but make sure you only follow instructions for adjusting the truss rod on a Rickenbacker. If you're not sure - go to a guitar tech who has worked on Rickenbackers![/color]

So warning over, it sounds like the truss rod needs adjusting, and by quite alot, so go slowly and take care. You might find lighter strings help, but the 4003 should cope with anything but super-heavy gauge. 45-105 is standard. An action height of 10mm is still very high, what is the neck relief like? it should be less than 2mm, possibly even less than 1mm, depending on your style of course. Once you have got the neck relief right, you can then think about the action, you'll probably find you need to raise it a bit if you get the neck sorted.

[waldflote8]

Hello and thanks for the welcome folks,

No probs on the truss rod warning, I had a lot of relief ??, probably about 5mm. (by using the string as a straight edge) So I'd reckoned they would need adjusting and gradually did that / straightened out the neck ,.. is currently virtually flat and my action is about 6mm on the E string, which is fine now for me to play. I used a screwdriver type tool as opposed to a right angled device (eg. socket set) in order to limit the torque I could apply,.. and tweaked it over 3 days with the strings down a semitone. I reckon on having it at a point now where I can let it settle and play for a bit, before re stringing - happy to use lighter ones,.. 40 - 100s ? I do like a very low action though and have no buzz at all currently,.. so thinking that I can go a bit lower.

That is the problem though, the bridge is bottomed out and the two height adjustment grub screws are sticking right out (not keen on that either as it will be like a magnet to my hand and guaranteed to get me at some point ) I don't want to take a lot out of the saddles - break angles etc. - but that would seem to be my only option at the moment. Luckily I am virtually there, but I am at one extreme of the bridge adjustment range,.Wondering if anyone else had a similar experience ?

thanks

[iiipopes]

All your questions probably can be answered by consulting joeysbassnotes.com . It sounds like nobody has ever set the bass up properly. Without seeing the bass, it is hard to tell, but resetting the rods according to Joey will lower the strings. If the neck is that far out, that would explain the bridge having to be down too far. Go slow, and when in doubt, consult a tech who knows Rickenbacker guitars. That said, I hope your bass was not improperly adjusted so that you have other problems under the surface. Being a 4003, in standard tuning, any reasonable reputable set of 45-105 should be fine on the bass.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='waldflote8' timestamp='1368530478' post='2077994']
Hello and thanks for the welcome folks,

No probs on the truss rod warning, I had a lot of relief ??, probably about 5mm. (by using the string as a straight edge) So I'd reckoned they would need adjusting and gradually did that / straightened out the neck ,.. is currently virtually flat and my action is about 6mm on the E string, which is fine now for me to play. I used a screwdriver type tool as opposed to a right angled device (eg. socket set) in order to limit the torque I could apply,.. and tweaked it over 3 days with the strings down a semitone. I reckon on having it at a point now where I can let it settle and play for a bit, before re stringing - happy to use lighter ones,.. 40 - 100s ? I do like a very low action though and have no buzz at all currently,.. so thinking that I can go a bit lower.

That is the problem though, the bridge is bottomed out and the two height adjustment grub screws are sticking right out (not keen on that either as it will be like a magnet to my hand and guaranteed to get me at some point ) I don't want to take a lot out of the saddles - break angles etc. - but that would seem to be my only option at the moment. Luckily I am virtually there, but I am at one extreme of the bridge adjustment range,.Wondering if anyone else had a similar experience ?

thanks
[/quote]

That's the cautious way for non rick necks. With Rick necks you need to set the neck in the right place externally, then tighten the truss rods on to that. Otherwise there is a risk of S bends in the neck and such. Taperwound strings might help lower the action some without messing with mechanics. Main thing is finding the source of the high action, is there a crack where the neck meets the body?

[BigBassBob]

As far as I'm aware 4003 necks adjust like other basses you just have to adjust the two rods carefully. It's the 4001 that you have to put pressure on the headstock and tighten the neck with the rods.

[waldflote8]

Thanks again, I couldn't see anything at Joey's site regarding bottoming out the bridge (apologies if I missed that) one or two threads when googling - but the frustrating ones which don't give an update to say if it was fixed or ??

The bass is perfect, no cracks or anything nasty. It is actually quite playable at the moment, cue stupid grin as I am thoroughly enjoying getting my hands on a real one......

I think that the chap who sold it just wasn't into making any adjustments, probably untouched from new.

Thanks for all the feedback so far - any thoughts on ding removal ?,.. the binding one especially (some pics from me might help)

cheers

Edited May 14, 2013 by waldflote8

[waldflote8]

[attachment=134812:SAM_0432.JPG][attachment=134810:SAM_0431.JPG]

Some pics attached. I have some tail lift - but looks similar to others I have seen online and wouldn't directly affect the action

The binding ding is very narrow and deep, looking for some 'filling' advice please

apologies for the messy room, will do a glamour shot in due course.

cheers

[Mr. Foxen]

Get a pick of the neck 'heel'. That is the danger point, and the source of shifting neck issues.

[waldflote8]

panic mode imminent !

ok. here are some more of the heel

[attachment=134813:SAM_0434.JPG][attachment=134814:SAM_0436.JPG]

the white line along the edge is not a crack as far as I can see, but looks like primer (white) which has not been covered by what I assume are tinted blue laquer coats.

That reminded me of something which I noticed at first inspection - underneath where the neck joins the body is not the tidiest finish I ever saw, pic below.

[attachment=134815:SAM_0440.JPG]

I've taken the saddle slots down a shade, that and previous truss rod tweaks, currently measuring 2mm on the E string at the 22nd - happy enough with that, no buzzes and sounds very nice.

cheers

andrew

[iiipopes]

For further reference, the neck, according to RIC specs, is supposed to be dead straight, no relief as on a Fender. The factory owners manual can be downloaded here: [url="http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf"]http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf[/url]

[Mr. Foxen]

Ha, physics is different for Ricks.

[iiipopes]

Well, no, it has to do with the mechanical impedance of the neck-through. That little bit extra compression on the neck really evens out the tonality from note to note; especially with the models that have the shedua stripe in the middle: absolutely no dead notes.

Now, that said, we all know that it is good if the E string can have a little more room to travel. So that's why I really like my 4002 (yes, I wrote "2," not "1" or "3.") with the G side perfectly straight per RIC specs, and the E string side with ever so slight of relief to accommodate string excursion.

Edited May 14, 2013 by iiipopes

[Mr. Foxen]

The block of lead under the fingerboard has something to do with removing dead spots. But yeah, Ricks are the only neck through basses in existence, so different physics is only applicable to them.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[iiipopes]

Well, there is a company called Carvin in the USA that makes good neck through basses, and a few others, but very few. Also, the lead block is not in all Rickenbacker basses. I don't believe it is in mine.

[Mr. Foxen]

So many places make through neck basses, that part was sarcasm.

[iiipopes]

RANT FOLLOWING: OK, the internet is great for many things. Context and non-verbal expressions are the key factors that help people determine satire or sarcasm from straight forward communication. With the internet, in spite of emoticons, there is neither. That is why I do not post in satire or sarcasm, and neither should anybody else.

[martthebass]

.......and relax.

I'd be surprised if the neck join has anythng to do with the relief/action - never heard of this being a weak spot. If anything it should be better than a bolt-on. If there's still a bit of relief in the neck slowly wind it down using the rods.....it's hard to bugger anything up on a 4003 unlike the 4001 - just make sure you apply equal turns to each rod.

Regarding the ding, either pay a lot of money to a good restorer or learn to live with it - it doesn't look too bad and I'd be surprised if it knocks the value of the bass much.

[3below]

The ding, rub rough edges away gently with very fine emery paper, just enough to remove the 'snagging edges'. After that live with it.

[iiipopes]

Thanks for the space to rant. And now, relaxing...Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

[3below]

So just how do these Ric truss rods work? I guess I did my 1979 Ric in somewhere around 1982 to 1984, luckily (for me) it transmuted into a G&L. Grateful if someone can explain the Physics / Engineering to me (I am Physicist/Engineer in day job).

Edited May 20, 2013 by 3below

[iiipopes]

They work just like any other truss rod: tightening them counters the pull of the string. The deal with the old rods is that they are/were not simple tension bars. They are rectangular, so if you try to adjust them without setting the neck you can torque them and pop them out of their slots internally, putting the force on the fingerboard instead and popping it off. The new rods are made, and the internal slots for the rods are milled, so this is not an issue.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='martthebass' timestamp='1369070449' post='2084534']
I'd be surprised if the neck join has anythng to do with the relief/action - never heard of this being a weak spot.
[/quote]

Really? The neck collapsing into the pickup cavity is pretty notorious. The whole thing where the moved the neck pickup was supposedly to address it, although in the ones I've seen, the route is still oversized so didn't really address the weak point as well as it should have.

[waldflote8]

Just been reading the posts about Ric copies,.. posting pics etc. I picked a good time to join the forum with my introduction of " Hi I finally got a 4003 ",..... Please forgive me, I also have an old Overwater Ent bass and I promise to burn my Shine RK2000 despite it being jolly decent.... Happy to report that the neck has been fine now for the last week or so. The ding and reducing value doesn't bother me so much as I really wanted a blueburst and I gather they are not so common ? I spotted a thing at the Stewmac site doing repairs to binding by making a filler from acetone and old binding,.. conjured memories of gluey fingers and what they do to the windows of your Airfix Spitfire (giving my age away) I expect that is dependant on the type of plastic too,.. so won't try anything without a lot of caution and pre testing. Interesting stuff on the truss rods, will have a look around for info. on that too. Thanks again...