Breaking down chord charts

[lobematt]

Hey guys, I'm looking for a bit of help in breaking down chord charts. Identifying common changes like the ii-V-! and parts of the cycle. Take for example the first line of 'I got rhythm'

BbM7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | BbM7 Gm7 | C7 F7 |

I can identify the intervals in-between the chords but I'm just struggling to be able to put them into something a bit more usable. Or maybe find a key centre to play through? Or am I just miles off and should be treating each chord separately?

Thanks!

[Doddy]

Initially,it's worth looking at the chords and really getting comfortable with them.
I'd start off by learning the changes using just chord tones-it may sound a little disjointed at first,but that's
not a problem. When you get comfortable try adding scale notes that will bridge the chords together and make the line
flow more.
You could look at it from a key centre if you wanted(especially when soloing),but I think it's best to have a solid
grounding in the changes.

[paul_5]

True dat. also try playing the chords as arpeggios in different places on the neck, then look at playing those arpeggios starting on different notes (e.g. the third and then the fifth). This will increase your knowledge of not just the chord tones available, but the fingerboard too.

HTH

[lobematt]

Thanks for the replies, I have been trying the arpeggios and am starting to make some progress. The reason I ask this though is from looking at lessons like Scott's 'Playing over ii-V-I' lessons but I'm not too sure how to apply them if I'm struggling to spot these sort of progressions. Does this just come from a better understanding of key signatures making it easier to spot these progressions?

[paul_5]

It will get easier. The progresion that you've quoted is a I-VI-II-V (but slightly altered to make chord II major, instead of minor 2nd time round), and that's pretty much as 'standard' a progression as you're likely to see. It might seem a bit bewildering at first, but once you've nailed this you can play a whole lot of tunes.

[Bilbo]

BbM7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | BbM7 Gm7 | C7 F7 |

What you have here is a I chord followed by its relative minor and then a II/V/I (in Bb), then an ambiguous minor which is the relative minor of Bb but which is also the II chord of a II/V/I in F but which resolves to an F dominant instead of F maj which works because the C7 to F7 is within the cycle of fifths.

You can play a Bb major scale over BbM7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | BbM7 Gm7 then sharped the E for the C7 before flattening it again for the F7. If you take care with the Eb/E (use them as passing notes on weak beats etc), you can pretty much use the same Bb major scale for the whole sequence. The secret is to ensire that your solo lines have their own internal logic and aren't just random notes from the Bb major scale..

[lobematt]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1317069280' post='1386442']
The secret is to ensire that your solo lines have their own internal logic and aren't just random notes from the Bb major scale..
[/quote]

Thanks mate, it is starting to make sense but I'm not sure I'd be able to spot this kind of thing for myself. With playing Bb Major over the whole phrase, would that just mean you would have to try and pick the notes from Bb that are chord tones of the chords you are playing over?

[Bilbo]

That's a perfectly credible option but you would quickly find yourself playing in little boxes. What I would recommend is that you take a solo off a version of these changes by someone you like and transcribe/learn the solo by ear. Then when you play the solo you have laerned over the changes, you will start to 'hear' the chord movement you have been studying. Its is only when you have internalised it that you will be able to play it. At the stage you are at, it will be hard to make anything sound convincing.

If you want to look up some bop tunes with those (rhythm) changes so you can cop some licks/solos, try some of these....

Anthropology, Boppin' A Riff, Calling Dr Jazz, Celerity, Crazyology, Moose The Mooche, Move,
Oleo, Ow, An Oscar For Treadwell, Passport, Red Cross, Room 608, Rhythm A Ning, Salt Peanuts, The Serpent's Tooth, Steeplechase, Turnpike, Webb City, Jay Jay, Eb Pob, Goin To , , ntons, Fat Girl, Sonnyside, O Go Mo, Dot's Groovy, Down For The Double, On The Scene, , 52nd Street Theme, Flying Home, Seven Comes Eleven, Lemon Drop, Lester Leaps In, Apple Honey, Tuxedo Junction, Love You Madly, Cheers, Merry Go Round, One Bass Hit, Oop Bop SHa Bam, Ah Leu Cha, The Theme, Cottontail, Dexterity

As you can see, a useful set of changes to learn

[lobematt]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1317137092' post='1387215']
That's a perfectly credible option but you would quickly find yourself playing in little boxes. .. . At the stage you are at, it will be hard to make anything sound convincing.
[/quote]

That's pretty much the problem I'm having! Thanks I'll try some transcribing

[Faithless]

What you wanna do first is learn chords first - flash out chord tones in every position in all keys for each chord quality that's involved in your progression.

The problem with scales is that if you'd played Bb Maj scale over that progression, after a while it would start sound boring and predictable - that's why you'd rather want to outline each chord individually.

And, hey, it can be Rhythm Changes,but you don't need to start off with them at the tempo that Oleo is usually called in (and it's usually really fast)..

easy
Laimis

[Bilbo]

Actually, this is what you need, lobematt. David Baker's How To Play Bebop vol 2. (Vol 1 & 3 are equally useful)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Play-Bebop-2-ebook/dp/B004O6LMIA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1317286156&sr=8-2

Its only about £7 and will fill in the gaps you are trying to plug. I was looking at it last night and thought 'Bingo'! You can get it as a Kindle book as well if that's easier.

[lobematt]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1317242805' post='1388672']
What you wanna do first is learn chords first - flash out chord tones in every position in all keys for each chord quality that's involved in your progression.

The problem with scales is that if you'd played Bb Maj scale over that progression, after a while it would start sound boring and predictable - that's why you'd rather want to outline each chord individually.

And, hey, it can be Rhythm Changes,but you don't need to start off with them at the tempo that Oleo is usually called in (and it's usually really fast)..

easy
Laimis
[/quote]

I actually moved onto autumn leaves last night, it's a song I'm more familiar with and is at a kinder pace to newbie jazz brains! I went through doing 1357 on each chord, the 1-3, 1-5, 3-5, just trying to get used to the changes. I found a few ii v i changes in that so I watched one of scotts devines lessons and got a ii v i lick out of that so now I've got a bass line with a nice tasty lick that pops up every now and then and then 2 notes a bar for the rest of the tune haha. I felt like I was making some progress though!

[Faithless]

Permutations is always a good thing, and 1 3 5 7 is only one permutation of 24 total.

You can look at Jerry's Bergonzi's books for more of this permutation stuff - it's good, because it's all chord tones.

Autumn Leaves is probably a better place for starter like you (I've also started with this tune), because of it's nice cyclic progression (especially first eight bars) and it has both Major and Minor II V I progressions in 8 bars, unlike Rhythm Changes, though they're important too.

As for Scott's tutorials - they're great, I've learned quite a bit from "Practising Arpeggios" tutorial - it helped me a lot when I started studying with J Hubbard, as we're really dipping into chord tones with him.
happy shedding,
Laimis