Noise suppression / gating

[Scotticus]

Hey all,

So, I'm looking for a gate to add to the end of my small pedal board. Basically, it's just to tighten up the ends of notes and stop my distortion pedal from grabbing at every tiny noise or harmonic when I'm flailing around and the muting discipline leaves me. That, and it's a way to clean up the noise if I want to leave the distortion active for small breaks where there isn't any bass (I want to do this from time to time because I'm clumsy as hell, so two stomps avoided wherever possible means a less accident prone gig.

I tried a Boss NS2 noise suppressor, because I had one laying around. It worked to a point, but I couldn't seem to get a snappy enough release time on the gate for my liking, plus with the settings as extreme as they needed to be for it to gate well it started to suck a lot of body from my sound.

Does anyone else use an NS2 for this purpose? Is it worth sticking with it, or picking up a different gate.

I should add that the first pedal at t'other end of the signal chain is a Barber Tonepress compressor, which I'm pretty happy with. I mention this because the compressor aspect of the NS2 is probably redundant.

Any thoughts welcome...

Scott

[Jarhead]

I think it's ISP who make the Decimator, which also comes in pedal form, and is supposed to be one of the best on the market. I know that they're extremely popular with metal guitarists, who need gating more than anyone really, so that may be worth a shot?

[cheddatom]

There's no compressor aspect to the NS2 is there?

I have an NS2 but I have all (well, most) pedals in it's loop, rather than just having it at the end of the chain. If you have a compressor before it, it might be that there's not enough variation in gain for the gate to react properly.

[51m0n]

Gating with no key filter is really really unlikely to work well IME.

A key filter lets you tailor the signal that the gate hears by cutting out the frequencies you dont want it to hear.

In your case you would want it to not listen to the top end hiss area at all, probably anything above 2KHz would be a fine to just ignore. That way you can have the gate close quickly as soon as any actual bass stops, and open quickly as soon as it starts. The level of hissy noise is not relevant to the gate action.

I would imagine that the Decimator, being based upon the HUSH noise reduction system would have all of this gubbins built in. The MXR smart gate has 3 modes (hiss, mid and full) which will give you an indication of the internal key filter set up that it uses.

As far as I can tell the NS-2 is either a full band gate or a full band expander, and ther eis no way to filter what it is listening to to determine when to open and close the gate.

[cheddatom]

yeh I think the NS-2 is "full band". It does work for me though, on a very noisey very fuzzy board.

[Scotticus]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1204415' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:37 AM']There's no compressor aspect to the NS2 is there?

I have an NS2 but I have all (well, most) pedals in it's loop, rather than just having it at the end of the chain. If you have a compressor before it, it might be that there's not enough variation in gain for the gate to react properly.[/quote]
What I meant by "compressor aspect" is that I can kinda feel the NS2 gradually swelling when I start to play, so the first second or so is a bit touch and go. Badly explained the first time round.

Having done some reading, I think I'm wiring this completely arse about face.
Tonight I'm gonna try running the drive pedal in the loop for starters cos everything is in line at the moment, and I'm also probably going to try putting the Tonepress (compressor pedal I like) last in the chain. That way, the compressor will just be rounding out the dynamics of clean and distortion sounds, rather than sending more hiss and crap into the drive pedal before the NS2 gets to work on it. Hopefully my Tonepress can react quick enough to iron out that swelling feeling too.

[DanOwens]

Scotticus, what you're hearing is the 'attack' of the gate. I don't use gate pedals like this so I can't really help you but since you've mentioned the attack, release and alluded to key filtering, I guess you're after a pretty advanced gate.

Dan

[joegarcia]

I'd just put the pedals you need to switch on/off quickly in a bypass loop so you can do it neatly in one stomp. Best to avoid gates wherever possible and use them as an absolute last resort I'd say.

[Scotticus]

Tonight at rehearsal, I rewired as follows:
Warwick $$ 5 -> NS2 input
NS2 send -> Tech21 XXL input
XXL output -> NS2 return
NS2 output -> Tonepress input
Tonepress output -> Genz Benz Shuttle 6 head
Shuttle 6 -> rubbish backline cab

There are a few positives:
Not having a compressor before the Tech21 XXL was great, it reminded me why I liked the pedal in the first place.
With some tweaking of the NS2, I managed to get a wonderfully quiet rig, so you'd think jobs a goodun, but...

Negatives:
It's now impossible to get a significant boost when I engage the XXL distortion, because the Tonepress grabs it and evens everything out. Worst part of this niggle is that there's a bit of recovery time when I switch back to clean, a big drop and then half a second or so of it ramping back up.
The biggest negative, I swear I can hear this NS2 sucking a load of body out of my sound. Seems to be a noticeable drop in low-mids as soon as it's turned on, no matter what I set it like.

It's a lengthy rant, but there are my findings. Any further advice would be much appreciated, because if I can hear this on a sh*tty rehearsal room cab, it's going to drive me up the wall next time I get to play through anything better (Friday night)

Cheers all
Scott

[cheddatom]

I've never noticed a cut in the low mids from my NS-2.

Is sounds like you have your compressor set up to be pretty harsh!! Maybe a subtler setting would be more suitable. No wonder it was raising the noise floor when it was at the start of the chain!

[Scotticus]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1205502' date='Apr 20 2011, 08:50 AM']I've never noticed a cut in the low mids from my NS-2.

Is sounds like you have your compressor set up to be pretty harsh!! Maybe a subtler setting would be more suitable. No wonder it was raising the noise floor when it was at the start of the chain![/quote]
True, I'm pushing the TonePress pretty hard, because it feels great to play at those settings. I did try easing up on it a lot though, and the second of "breathing" wasn't quite as noticeable but still definitely there.

Hmmm, I've always liked the Tonepress for it's simplicity... it just does what I want a compressor to do without tweaking... but maybe I'm too fussy to not have manual control over attack times and such.

[Scotticus]

[quote name='joegarcia' post='1204807' date='Apr 19 2011, 02:26 PM']I'd just put the pedals you need to switch on/off quickly in a bypass loop so you can do it neatly in one stomp. Best to avoid gates wherever possible and use them as an absolute last resort I'd say.[/quote]
Hey Joe - this sounds promising. Sorry to seem thick, but I'm really not a gearhead (at least not pedals-wise), so if you've got a minute to answer a couple of daft questions...

My head has a loop (Genz Benz Shuttle 6), though I don't have a foot switch to bypass it. I could get one, but to be honest if something I could have on the board exists for this purpose I'd rather go that route. The idea of building the board setup is to have less plugging in to do before and after gigs (because I'm lazy), and less wiring laying around on stage (because I'm a deadly mixture of clumsy and too blind to see them) so the mess of leads I had before was an accident waiting to happen.

Any tips on a way to do this, keeping it totally on the board? I guess I'm after a decent quiet stompable loop.

Cheers
Scott

[Scotticus]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1204686' date='Apr 19 2011, 12:58 PM']since you've mentioned the attack, release and alluded to key filtering, I guess you're after a pretty advanced gate.[/quote]
Ah, that's probably true Dan. I've been spoiled by learning how compression and gating works on rack hardware, then had plugins to fiddle about with for the last few years. No stomp boxes have the same level of control (at least not the ones I can afford)

[cheddatom]

Maybe try the compressor in the loop of the NS-2? That's how I have mine.

But yeh, if you're used to working with studio gear, I guess a rack gate is what you need.

[Scotticus]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1205569' date='Apr 20 2011, 09:58 AM']Maybe try the compressor in the loop of the NS-2? That's how I have mine.

But yeh, if you're used to working with studio gear, I guess a rack gate is what you need.[/quote]
I had a racked rig when I played guitar (this was pre-bass-discovery of course). The cost of rack gear and effort of lugging it around made me determined to find a way to do this with stomp boxes.

Interesting point about the compressor in the NS-2's loop, I'll give it a go in a bit.

[cheddatom]

You might be more of a tone connoisseur than me. I use a lot of compression and dirt, and I do get quite a bit of hiss, but the NS-2 is great for cutting everything out when I mute the strings.

[joegarcia]

All I meant was that if the problem was turning on more than one pedal at a time neatly you could put them in both either in a single loop (if they both need to go on at the same time) or each in a loop of a double loop pedal so you can easily turn one on/one off in an easy stomp. I personally prefer to do it this way and just be quick switching drive pedals off over resorting to noise reduction.

Something like this double one:
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Double-Guitar-Loop-Pedal-TRUE-BYPASS-Pedal-Board-Looper-/140517529976?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item20b77f5978"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Double-Guitar-Loop-P...=item20b77f5978[/url]

Or this single one:
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guitar-Loop-Pedal-True-Bypass-Looper-Custom-Design-/140519383324?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item20b79ba11c#ht_3084wt_907"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guitar-Loop-Pedal-Tr...c#ht_3084wt_907[/url]

Or even a Boss LS-2.

There are plenty of fancy ones about though if you wanna spend more.

[Scotticus]

[quote name='joegarcia' post='1206551' date='Apr 20 2011, 10:50 PM']All I meant was that if the problem was turning on more than one pedal at a time neatly you could put them in both either in a single loop (if they both need to go on at the same time) or each in a loop of a double loop pedal so you can easily turn one on/one off in an easy stomp. I personally prefer to do it this way and just be quick switching drive pedals off over resorting to noise reduction.

Something like this double one:
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Double-Guitar-Loop-Pedal-TRUE-BYPASS-Pedal-Board-Looper-/140517529976?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item20b77f5978"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Double-Guitar-Loop-P...=item20b77f5978[/url]

Or this single one:
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guitar-Loop-Pedal-True-Bypass-Looper-Custom-Design-/140519383324?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item20b79ba11c#ht_3084wt_907"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guitar-Loop-Pedal-Tr...c#ht_3084wt_907[/url]

Or even a Boss LS-2.

There are plenty of fancy ones about though if you wanna spend more.[/quote]
Cheers for the links Joe, much appreciated. Really the only reason I'm trying to get the gated setup to play ball is to cut down on the need to turn drives off during quiet sections (minimal amount of stomps is good when you've got massive clumsy flippers like mine). This looks like it could have some merit too though, I'd still need to stomp a bit more often than I was intending, but at least it'd be in one consistent place rather than multiple pedals.

[joegarcia]

Yea, that's the idea. If you make sure it's in a convenient place on your board you'll be fine with a bit of practice.

[cheddatom]

I used to do that - try to kick my pedals off during muted sections. It got to where I was turning them off for every little half second break in a riff, which was a bit much. Especially when people laughed refering to my "tap dancing" :-/

[civictiger]

I use an artec noise gate, it isn't a supressor its an actual gate

You set the threshhold/sensitivity and and signal below that, it just cuts.
I have the gate as the very first pedal in my chain as running it after distortions means you have to get really risky with the threshhold.
If I mute a string, my whole signal is cut off and amp is silent (including using my fuzz+preamp)

I'd recommend it, also since your concerned about using your conpressor after your distortion, you can have the gate first and the compressor second in your signal path

Oh, aand best parts are its true bypass and only cost me about 45-50quid new

[Scotticus]

[quote name='civictiger' post='1207824' date='Apr 22 2011, 03:09 AM']I use an artec noise gate, it isn't a supressor its an actual gate[/quote]
Cheers for the tip civictiger, sounds hopeful. I haven't read up on it yet to understand exactly what's going on, but this ns2 seems to be processing the signal more than just opening and closing like a standard gate.

Now, if anyone knows of a decent sounding compressor with a loop i can run a distortion in (to avoid the extra space a loop pedal will take), I'd be all ears!