uncle psychosis

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340187061' post='1700523'] So what we are essentially arguing about is the exact legal meaning of a couple of words. The way I see it, if you download a song and the artist who recorded it wants you to pay for the privilege and you don't then you are depriving the artist of money. Somewhere along to line you have broken some law. Can we agree on that? [/quote] Yes, we totally agree. My original point way back in the mists of time was that describing copyright infringement as stealing was a silly thing to do. Copyright infringement is a crime, but it is not stealing. I was just being pedantic

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340186220' post='1700505'] You might find that whoever has paid for the rights to sell postcards/prints of the Mona Lisa has something to say about that. [/quote] That was my point. You've infringed on someone's commercial rights (which is illegal) but nothing has been "stolen". I was merely pointing out that describing copyright infringement as "theft" was factually wrong. Ethically and morally wrong? Probably, yes. Stealing? No. Plus, nobody on basschat would call you a c**t and a thief for taking a picture of the Mona Lisa and giving it to your mum!

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340183978' post='1700426'] I'd also say would you feel comfortable doing a transaction in the Basschat marketplace with someone who you know advocates downloading for free content that should be paid for? I know I wouldn't. [/quote] I sincerely hope that isn't aimed at me. At no point have I advocated piracy and to claim otherwise is both unfair and untrue.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340183621' post='1700410'] IMO you are confusing piracy with some music being given away for free out of choice. It's up to each band and/or record company to decide whether or not that they give (some of) their music away for free or charge for it. If it's being given away free by all means take it. If it's not free don't take it just because some other music is. Also if you want to listen to a band there are plenty of legal places on the internet where you can do so (we'll leave aside the piss-poor royalty rates these sites pay for now). There is no need to grab an unauthorised download. Therefore the argument about downloading for trying before buying falls flat. My music tastes are pretty eclectic, but I've never needed to obtain a dodgy copy of a band's work in order to find out whether or not I'm going to like them. My band give some of our tracks away for free and we expect you to pay for others. That's our choice. If you don't like it, then you can probably find plenty of others playing music in a similar style who are giving away all their songs for free. However if you think that my band has that something extra special that other bands have wouldn't you want to pay for the music if that's what was being asked of you? [/quote] I do pay for music. All the time. I don't download illegally. I respect musicians too much for that. I've said that repeatedly. I totally agree that if a musician wants you to pay for their music then you should. But according to some of the logic on display in this thread---if you make a mixtape for your mate then you're a ****, because you've "stolen" from a starving musician. Its stupid. Sometimes bands do well out of piracy (see Twigman) and to stick our collective heads in the sand and ignore that fact is just daft. Right I really am done this time.

Anyway, I'm leaving this discussion. Its getting ugly and people are reading what they want to read, not whats actually been written. For the record: 1. I firmly believe in supporting artists and musicians (and I do, at every opportunity) 2. I believe that in many cases piracy is both legally and ethically wrong and cannot be justified 3. I [i]also[/i] believe that in many cases, piracy can actually be a good thing for artists and musicians.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340182314' post='1700361'] I can't believe people defend it. I don't give a sh*t what someone wants to call it, but if some music has a price, and some f***er takes it without paying for it, then that is depriving the people who created the music of some income. [/quote] So, if someone illegally downloads one song by an artist, and then on the back of that goes and buys three cds, a concert ticket, and a tshirt, then the artist has been deprived of income? Please. Did you believe that home taping was killing music too?

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340181934' post='1700341'] Well it is. It just happened to have a positive effect in the long term for his particular band. If you killed my brother I'd get inheritance. Cheers. That's a very rare occurrence and it doesn't take away from the fact that people still stole his albums.. [/quote] Eh? I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I'm going to make this simple, because somehow people seem to have got confused. [size=6]Sometimes, for some bands, piracy can have a positive effect. Sometimes, for other bands, piracy can have a negative effect. Arguing that piracy is a black/white issue is stupid. [/size] That was all my point was in the first place. Somehow everyone got their knickers in a twist and assumed that "some piracy can be good" meant "all piracy is brilliant and you should all never pay for anything ever again".

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1340181677' post='1700333'] Yep - it's a lesson to [i]some[/i] bands that giving away a back catalogue which has already been recorded (and presumably the recording paid for) is a good thing. That choice should be made by the copyright owner, though. [/quote] Sounds like we agree.

[quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1340179605' post='1700289'] If we're actually honest with ourselves, there are very few of us here who couldn't do everything they want and need to do on a bog standard Jazz bass and, I put it to you, that even owning more than one is an induglence. Why are people who have two or three applying a stigma to having more than that? At a push, you could say there could be a need for fretted and fretless but saying you [i]need[/i] a Stingray tone and a P bass tone is a bit much. [/quote] I think people have read a bit too much into some of it. For me, personally, I don't like having instruments lying around not getting used. Thats not an indulgence I'm comfortable with. If someone else gets pleasure out of having 47 jazz basses, all in different finishes, then thats cool by me. It just doesn't work for me! Like you say, though, I think there is a little bit too much confusion of the words "need" and "want" when it comes to guitars. Someone might [i]want [/i]to own 16 basses, but lets face it, they almost certainly don't [i]need[/i] to. There's nothing wrong with wanting 16 basses, but you should at least be honest with yourself about your motives

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1340181354' post='1700323'] All these justifications, excuses and explanations don't alter the fact, yes fact, that it is illegal (against the law) to pirate music, films, games, photographs, software and many other things, so taking without paying is always stealing. It's not difficult to understand; unless you’re a person who steals these products, then you'll spend time trying to justify what you're doing. Whether or not you can pick up what you have stolen is irrelevant. The fact that you can do it and easily get away with it seems to make some people think that it's OK to steal. There is some very immature reasoning going on here. Musicians justifying stealing from other musicians? Shame on you. [/quote] So what do you say to Twigman's post? He is in a band. They have success [i]because[/i] of piracy. The only immature argument around here is the one that goes "piracy is always bad". Its just not that simple.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340178282' post='1700267'] uncle psychosis, did you actually read the article in the OP all the way through? [/quote] Yes. And somehow I've ended up being the poster boy for illegal downloads despite acquiring all of my music and films by paying for them This is the problem with the internet---all I said initially was "downloading isn't necessarily always a bad thing" and somehow people have turned that into me saying its ok to take whatever you want for free [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340178287' post='1700268'] Gosh, five minutes of my life - gone. That's like one TV advert break or something. The anti-piracy campaign thanks you for buying legally, it doesn't call you a criminal. [/quote] There's a few different ones. The one that says "thank you for buying this product" is good. I approve of that one. The one I'm specifically thinking of is the obnoxious "you wouldn't steal a car....you wouldn't steal a purse... blah blah blah" one that goes on and on. You're right, I wouldn't steal a car and I didn't steal this DVD so f**k off and let me watch the film please! [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1340178315' post='1700270'] If you want to support music, buy stuff. Not supporting bands is damaging to everyone, when people can't afford to play gigs because of expenses and can't pay for more recordings because their CDs are being pirated, it's the fans that lose out as much as the bands. It's not the band's responsibility to give you free stuff. Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that musicians can have the veiw that piracy is ok. [/quote] I assume this is aimed at me. I do support bands (more than almost anyone else I know). I don't think "piracy is ok".What I think is: "[b]sometimes[/b] piracy can actually be a good thing for musicians. [b]SOMETIMES[/b]." [quote name='Alec 'Aleb' Mills' timestamp='1340179563' post='1700287'] An example, its not just the muic industry being limited to piracy. In the game industry, last year a game called 'Cyrisis 2' had an estimated 4 million unregistered copies on the multiplayer servers after just four months of the game being released. Within that same period, they had only sold 3 million copies. This was one of the worst performances for a game. In these scenarios, it shows that 'people' will not pay for things if they can get away with it.[/quote] Someone at Crytek (the people who made Crysis 2) leaked it before it was launched. If you've got a game that millions of teenage boys want to play thats suddenly available to download but not available legally [i]anywhere[/i] then its hardly surprising it was downloaded that many times. [b]I'm not saying that its a good thing[/b], just that you can understand how it happened. Teenagers are hardly renowned for their patience.

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340177332' post='1700248'] It's not an inferior product at all though - it's a few commercials. [/quote] Its five minutes of commericals. That you can't skip. Every time you want to watch the film that you've legally paid for. And a big fat anti-piracy advert that as good as calls you a criminal (even though you've paid for their product). It is most definitely an inferior product.

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340176844' post='1700238'] It does. It showed there are a number of outlets for legally downloading and streaming things. A lack of patience because you really want to watch a TV show isn't a justification at all. [/quote] We're just going to have to agree to disagree. If people want to buy your product then making it difficult for them to do so is just lunacy.

[quote]You did pay to watch the film though. You pay your TV license right? You pay Sky/Virgin Media/BT for any package you might have? That's you paying to watch that film. The view count of advertisements on that channel etc etc is how the broadcaster makes their money, which pays for their right to show the film. Through this chain by watching that film on TV you have paid the people who own the copyright to it[/quote] My point wasn't about the legality of it. My point was purely that some people will watch stuff "for free" but never consider paying for it. Thats all. [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340176153' post='1700230'] iTunes provides a vast library of good-quality music and is easy to use.[/quote] The last time I used iTunes I could only download sh*tty quality mp3s that were locked to iTunes. To get them onto my mp3 player I had to burn a cd from iTunes, then rip it to a format of my choosing. Maybe they've finally woken up and realised how stupid that system was. [quote]Has really it got to the point where we're justifying pirate over legal because we can't be bothered to sit through a few trailers? [/quote] So you think it makes sense for an industry to provide an inferior product AND treat their paying customers like criminals?

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1340149337' post='1700157'] What makes you think that a "collection" automatically means "instrument(s) gathering dust"? All mine get played on a fairly regular rotation because I like them all. If they don't get played, they get sold. [/quote] The bit where I said "if I'm not using them" makes me think that they'll gather dust

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340147433' post='1700139'] The difference is the TV channel paid to show that film whether you liked it or not. People won't download films they don't like. [/quote] Yes but my point was that it was free to me. It didn't cost me anything to watch it. I would never have paid any money to watch that film. There has to be a realisation that some people will never buy your product, but they will watch it / listen to it if they can get it free. Those people are not your customers and you'll never be able to stop them so we just need to forget about them and move on. [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1340148701' post='1700152'] If you bought the music you illegally downloaded then musicians would have earned some money. You illegally downloaded that music and didn't pay any musicians. So you took their music with out paying for it. That's as stealing as shop lifting no matter how aggressively you try to justify it. [/quote] Who is this aimed at? There's no-one here that I can see who is actually a downloader, from what I can see? [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1340148737' post='1700153'] Come to think of it if we are getting all morally superior about copyright infringement = stealing, how is getting a tune stuck in your head all day not stealing? There's also nothing physical removed or stolen (just like with mp3s) and for all intents and purposes you have made a copy (just like with an mp3) and can recall it at will (just like on an mp3 player). I dare say you wouldn't always 100% of the time go out and buy a physical copy of the track either. It's money out of artists pockets I tell ya! So there we have it conclusive proof that copyright infringement is not stealing - but it is a crime (albeit one that gets into the realms of being silly when you try and define it) don't do it... I've had "don't stop believing" stuck in my head all day so I might owe the cast of glee a few bob. [/quote] I like it. Saying "downloading is stealing" is factually wrong. And being factually wrong is never a good place to start a discussion that you want to win. [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340171186' post='1700201'] The response of people who defend this 'non payment' stance is to glibly reply that the music industry has to change. Change to what? There's never an answer or solution given, just 'you must change'. Recording, live, streaming none of them work. So the industry will die because there is no other business model, something the people who won't pay won't face up to. [/quote] Well for starters they have to stop treating their customers as criminals before they've even bought your product. If people want electronic format music then provide it to them---in a variety of good quality formats. Give them a choice between flac, ogg, high VBR mp3, etc etc. Not some highly compressed DRM-ridden piece of crap like some of the music companies have been trying to push on people. Sony even went so far as to put root-kits on some cds for goodness sake---Dear Sony, if I bought your cd you should not treat me like sh*t. Yours, a customer. The film industry are even worse for this. Buy a blu-ray or dvd these days and you get thanked for that with five minutes of (unskippable) trailers that you have to sit through every time you want to watch it. And then, even though you bought their dvd, you get a lovely annoying ad saying "Don't steal DVDs, its bad, mm-kay". Meanwhile, all the pirates out there who've downloaded it have it in a format that skips straight to the feature with none of the sh*tty, annoying ads. Rewarding people for buying your product with an inferior experience to that you get from stealing it is just moronic. This comic sums a lot of it up quite nicely I think: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones [quote]So kiss goodbye to music. [/quote] Reactionary nonsense. How many people on basschat actually make money out of music? And yet we all keep doing it, day after day after day.

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340147134' post='1700134'] AKA if the convenient option to illegally download it wasn't there then they probably would've bought it. [/quote] No, I don't buy that. I watched some sh*t film on the TV the other night but I'd never in a million years have paid money to do so.

Photograph everything. So you can prove what state it left you in!

Turned into an interesting thread. I guess my problem is that I don't like to "collect" instruments. I see them as (pretty) tools and feel a bit guilty if I don't use them. Especially if they're expensive- would rather have a holiday or money in my sons' university fund than an instrument gathering dust!

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340145778' post='1700111'] Just because they buy more DVDs doesn't lesser the impact they have on the films they download? I agree with you in that if nothing changes the music business will be forced to change, and not to the benefit of the artist as far as I can see. Morally it's not the business that should change, but the ones committing the crime. Business: "Dear Society, please stop stealing from me, it's ruining my business and the manufacturer's business." Society: "So? Deal with it - adapt." See how that doesn't make sense? [/quote] I also don't think it makes sense that record companies make more profits than musicans do. Lots of things in society don't make sense when you look at them in an ideal manner. But you can sit about going "oh this is so unfair" or you can do something about it. As for the dvds---file that one under "if they wouldn't have bought it anyway then they're not your customer".

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340145623' post='1700108'] Really? It's always been about money. Everything's about money, that's the world we live in. [/quote] If you're going to play the capitalist card then its even more obvious that the music industry has to change. When customers won't buy your product anymore you need to find a new business model or die.

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340145106' post='1700100'] You missed the point entirely. The argument is made that musicians rather than making music from recordings make an income from live performance. This is not possible if venues are shutting down or people aren't getting paid. Although perhaps it being the same ethos of not wanting to pay for anything is running through both. Even the notion that festivals would generate incomes is a non-starter, with several big festivals not going ahead last year due to poor ticket sales. [/quote] Its a global recession and everyone is skint. The first things that go when you're skint are luxuries, like expensive festival tickets... As far as I can see, the biggest problem at the small scale of the market is massive oversaturation. Supply massively outweighs demand. There are a seemingly infinite number of bands out there. A bar manager is never going to pay a band a living wage when instead they can get four or five naive young bands to indulge in pay-to-play and take all the financial risk themselves. And then it becomes self-defeating. Venues put on sh*t bands because they're cheap. sh*t bands don't attract paying punters. Don't bring in paying punters and the venue won't pay a decent wage. Repeat. Venues aren't just shutting because no-one wants to pay for gigs. They're shutting for loads of reasons---the pub industry is struggling, promoters have got lazy and put on any old sh*t so don't attract any regular punters, etc etc.

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340143020' post='1700042'] As for this 'getting back to the values of the live performance day', what drivel. The only artists making money out of live music are the ones who managed to make money out of recorded music. Add into that the fact that not a month, neigh week, goes past on here without someone highlighting venues shutting down and struggling to get paid for gigs, where does that leave making money from performances? [/quote] And of course no musicians hold any responsibility for that. There are no bands out there who'll willingly sign up for pay-to-play, or play for free week after week after week and devalue their own product as a result. Its all the fault of those nasty downloaders that nobody gets paid for gigs, right?

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340142525' post='1700020'] The bottom line is the [b]vast majority[/b] of illegal downloads hinder, not help, artists. [/quote] To be blunt, I don't believe that. For instance I've seen reports that suggest the same people who download the most films are also the same people who buy the most DVDs. [quote]I also don't see why musicians 'need to change' if they're not the offending party. Google etc needs a smack, downloaders (like myself) need to get a wider sense of responsibility as individuals and en masse, and these sites need to come down and people need to save a little longer and thus appreciate their music and the hard work that went into it more. [/quote] Businesses need to change and evolve, or they die. The music business is no different. I'm not saying that illegal downloading is 100% a good thing. In many, many ways its a bad thing. I don't do it myself. But---and its a big, fat, Jennifer Lopez sized but---neither is it 100% a bad thing. Its a grey area filled with strong opinions and very reasonable points on both sides and all I'm really trying to say is that people who try and paint everything as either black or white are just muppets who do nothing to help their argument. In my opinion the industry needs to forget about the saddoes who have 11,000 illegal mp3s on their hard drive. Those people aren't your customers. They're never going to pay for your product. Trying to stop them is just a waste of time, effort, and money. The industry should instead concentrate on people who [i]are[/i] prepared to support your artists financially, and find the best way to provide them with a product and a business model that works for everybody. There are plenty people out there---I'm one of them---who are prepared to pay for music and gigs. You just need to find the right way to sell to them.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340134719' post='1699819'] It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music. [/quote] Its nothing to do with not seeing the value of music. I love music. I spend a small fortune on music, and gigs, and music merchandise. I will always continue to support musicians I love and music I love. I haven't downloaded anything illegally in years. But that doesn't mean that I'm just going to swallow the lie that illegal downloading is evil and wrong in every single way. The music "industry" has to face up to the reality that their "traditional" (I use the inverted commas because recorded music is still a relatively new invention) business model doesn't work in an internet world. You can either embrace new technology and new ways of doing things or you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la la la thieves thieves thieves la la la la la la la" and wonder where all your money went. If anything, the internet is forcing a return to the pre-recording days when the "value" in music was in live performance. A concert is something that can't be duplicated or downloaded. The live experience cannot be replicated. We should all embrace that and do as much as possible to ensure that everytime we do a gig we make it as good as possible so that people see the "value" in what we do and make them want to come back again and again.