risingson

Hello everyone. I have a problem that I'm hoping that one or two of you may help me in addressing, or perhaps offering some possible explanation concerning my WT-800. It's a bit of a long one, but here we go. The amp itself is playing up. It's the old version of the 800 from 2001. I run it exclusively with a 410XLT (8 ohm) bridged at every gig, no exceptions. The problem is thus; after 10-15 minutes or so of playing live with my band, the amp starts to cut out intermittently. The EQ clip light goes on, the set-gain LED goes out and there is a visible and unnatural pulsing in the speakers. The fault lasts for a few seconds at a time before the amp begins to function normally again. It will than happen as an intermittent fault for the rest of the evening, seemingly with no rhyme nor reason to when or where. A few things to point out at this stage. You'll most likely now be thinking this to be a dry solder joint problem within the amp. I thought this too, but I actually had the dry solder joints in the amp resoldered a year or two ago and the amp has worked perfectly up until now. Furthermore, not only have I taken the amp to a very experienced technician (who can't find any fault with it), but I have even had the lid off the amp to have a quick tap of the capacitor in the preamp to to elicit some kind of reaction from the amp indicating dry soldering, but to no avail. My amp settings are as follows (in bridge) for those familiar with Eden controls: Gain: 1-2 o'clock Enhance: never more than 12 o'clock Preamp: largely flat across the top with a bit of a 50hz bass and mid boost. Balance: 12 o'clock This is where it gets really annoying. I cannot replicate the fault outside of a gigging situation. It would seem to be totally [u]faultless[/u] in fact, I've been playing it for an hour or more today and the problem has completely stopped! But during gigs it is definitely playing up, no question. I'm a bit lost and really at the end of my tether with it all. If any of you know of any possible cause or have experienced anything similar I would really appreciate the feedback from you. I'm a regular gigging musician and need to get my amp back on track. Cheers guys and all the best, Liam

[quote name='lowregisterhead' timestamp='1323025029' post='1458443'] Phenomenal. I've met Pino a couple of times over the years, he's physically and musically a giant, but a real gent with it. He's doesn't take any sh*t, though - there's the old story that The Stones asked him to have a meeting after Bill Wyman left, where he was effectively 'auditioned', and then turned down. He promptly sent them an invoice... [/quote] The Stones are idiots for turning Pino down for anything other than some kind of scheduling conflict. I couldn't name you a better suited bass player as Wyman's replacement! Darryl Jones does a fine job and is a marvelous musician, but even Anthony Jackson has commented on the shadow that Pino casts over session work being nothing less than intimidating. Coming from (IMO) the best bass player in the world, that's high praise.

This probably sounds a bit silly and very obvious, but the main difference between a beginner wanting to play a well and a pro playing well is experience and a lot of invested time. Putting on a pair of football boots isn't suddenly going to make you the next Messi or even the next Peter Crouch. I've been playing for 10 years now and I can honestly say that the thing that made me a better bass player, apart from practice, was gigging and recording experience because all of a sudden, everything you've practiced has to get pulled sharply into focus. There was a guy when I was younger who I used to be in total awe of. To me he was the best bass player I'd ever seen, I used to try and get to talk to him after gigs about his favourite bass players so I could study them and get as good as he was. I didn't see him for a while, but when I did next see him performing a few years later, his skills were comparatively no better than my own. In fact, I was considerably better, not least of all because by this stage I had out-practiced him and had a number of years playing live under my belt which really booted me into gear. This all sounds a lot like I'm blowing my own trumpet , but I don't think that too fine a point can be put on hard work and experience. As obvious as it sounds, it really is the key in becoming a better bass player. You just have to want it and work for it.

Interesting weekend of gigs. Last nights was your standard Xmas party dans le marquee, but Friday we got the opportunity to support the Beautiful South, which was a lot of fun. After the support slot and the Beautiful South had finished, we went upstairs in the venue we were playing and did another 2 hours. The Beautiful South we good enough to stick around and watch us. At the end of the night, Alison Wheeler asked if she could get up and sing with us, unfortunately we had ran out of time but it was nice of her to ask and it would have been a great laugh had the venue not been closing! A good weekend all together.

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1322989970' post='1457895'] Have you listened to Dave Grusin's version/Album of West Side story ? Top arranging and playing all round. ... Garry [/quote] Yes, but not for a long while, thanks for posting it up again Garry! Great playing, fantastic stuff.

I tend to take the results of sound checks before any of the audience is let in with a big pinch of salt. Once there are people in, the sound tightens up and the level of stuff gets reduced.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1322939679' post='1457606'] Only musical I've played was Grease about twenty years ago and I really enjoyed it. It was harder work than I expected although I realise Grease is probably somewhat easier than say West Side Story (and most others). [/quote] Grease was the Toto/L.A guys and the level of musicianship that went into the soundtrack was superb (fairly certain it was David Hungate on bass for it and also Mike Porcaro), even though the musical itself really isn't my thing. Likewise, if you listen to the Wiz, Anthony Jackson is all over it like a rash. Amazing bass playing. Not a fan of musicals in general, apart from one, which is West Side Story. It is a masterpiece, a triumph of 20th century music from one of the greatest musical minds of all time as far as I'm concerned!

Not quite understanding the 'Neck EQ/Bridge EQ' part. Do they mean tone pots? Do they boost bass/treble in one go? Or bass one, treble the other etc. ?

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1322756371' post='1455503'] IMV the music world of today is sadly devoid of characters/musicians of Robert Fripp's ilk... where the f*** are the Robert Fripps of today? [/quote] I had a music lecturer at Uni that inspired me so much to want to pick up my bass and really learn. He was one of the only people who's lectures I really looked forward to, a complete genius and former student of Dave Holland's. He imparted a lot upon me as a musician. You're definitely right in saying that the music world is certainly lacking this kind of character right now.

I currently have a 'Rockcase' rackmount. It's not brilliant but it does the job. I've owned shockmounted rackcases also and found them to be cumbersome for what I do, but certainly if you're going to be running something all valve for example, it's probably going to be worth the investment in the long term.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322750831' post='1455365'] Good to know we have found some common ground. We will indeed have to agree to disagree about the gripping devices. BTW, you were only supposed to look at the first minute of the Gary Willis clip !! [/quote] I think Gary Willis is a marvelous bass teacher with a lot of informative stuff to say, but I wish he'd inject his teaching with a bit more in the way of life!

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322749474' post='1455329'] These grip devices, by their very name involve gripping. They are designed to develop gripping strength primarily. There is no getting away from that fact. Otherwise they might be called warm up gadgets. This repeated gripping and releasing is what gets the blood pumping, like you say. In the process you are building up strength that is not required. This unwanted strength could make the hand muscle bound, if the gadget was over used, and could in fact inhibit playing, much like our friend the weight lifter trying to do gymnastics or run a hundred meters. IMO, gentle stretching of the fingers and wrists, followed by slow deliberate exercises ( musical or otherwise) on the bass itself, is all that is needed to warm up. Five to ten minutes is all it takes. [/quote] I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said here. But these gadgets aren't isolation exercises, i.e. they're not singularly working on one thing (the big hang up here being grip). They are by their very nature they are making you perform compound exercise, or in other words you're working out more than just one thing at a time. Low resistance work outs and high repetition on an irregular basis will not see improved muscle mass, that's not how muscle building works, so it is a theory that can be discounted if you're using such a device in the correct manner. I'm yet to come across anyone who has developed high muscle mass from singularly using a grip master either. I do strongly believe that good technique should be achievable without the use of something like a grip-master, or indeed any other gadget that is marketed as such. But I would say that the times in which I have used them, they have gone at least some way in getting my hands 'motivated' to work for lack of a better term But I suspect we shan't agree. I respect your opinion though, and that of Gary Willis's, even if his video was starting to put me asleep!

[quote name='hairyhaw' timestamp='1322736558' post='1454984'] The covers band I'm in has taken on two new songs; "Hundred Mile High City" by Ocean Colour Scene and The Lemonheads cover of "Mrs Robinson". Up till now I’ve never really had a problem with BV’s as they were few and far between, Choruses etc. so generally not a whole lot that I had to remember. Now these two tunes require me to sing the harmonies from start to finish. Do many of you guys and girls do BV’s? If so, how do you memorise your words? I've thought about cheat sheets with prompts taped to the back of the PA but I'm maybe a bit old fashioned in thinking it'd be a good idea to actually try and memorise them. Any thoughts? [/quote] Yes, I do loads both covers and original material. We do Bohemian Rhapsody at the end of every set. When we first decided we were going to do it, it just took some time to sit down and dish out the parts to the person who's voice is best suited to said harmony. For example, I'm never going to have a blindingly high range, therefore I forfeited singing the really high parts and opted for a lot of the mid-range stuff because it's where my voice is most comfortable. From there, it's simply a case of practicing, both a capella and with your instrument. It's hard work but very rewarding providing you've got a decent arranger!

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1322744742' post='1455189'] Cold muscles need stretching, then gentle warm up, [b]not strenuous exercise[/b]. [/quote] Read my posts more carefully and you'll note that I didn't imply this at any stage.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322739071' post='1455055'] OK. Leaving aside the device itself for a moment, let us talk about "grip" and how it relates ( or more to the point..does [b]not[/b] ) to bass playing. You, as a seasoned experienced bassist will know that a key aspect to good technique is keeping both hands relaxed. Beginners often make the mistake of holding the neck of the bass in a death grip. This not only hampers their playing, but can possibly lead to physical problems later on. The advice always given by teachers is to always have both hands as relaxed as possible. With all this in mind, maybe you could explain the benefits from a bass playing aspect, of building up gripping strength, regardless of whether the gripping device is adjustable or not. [/quote] With respect, I do believe you're missing the point. These things don't have to dictate grip at all. If these grippy contraptions are getting blood pumping to the muscles in the hands, which they inevitably will be, then it is one step closer to having hands that will perform to a higher level after periods of little to no bass playing activity. Used in conjunction with more regular styles of warming up, I don't see the harm in using them. I wouldn't recommend them to beginner bass players. The adjustability of them does make a difference and shouldn't be discounted... I would agree that using them on maximum resistance would be a fruitless endeavour, comparable to your suggestion before of a runner training with high weights and low rep.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322733246' post='1454931'] I respect, but disagree with your opinion on grip devices. While I'm sure they do warm up the hands, they do so by exercising the muscles and tendons that will not be required in fretting or plucking. Would you not agree that it would be better to warm up by exercising the parts of the hand that will be used ? These devices build [b]strength, [/b]when stamina and agility is what is needed. It is similar to an 100 meter sprinter warming up by lifting heavy weights like a weight lifter does. Sure, he/she will warm up this way, but wont be using what's required when sprinting. [/quote] The heavy weightlifting thing doesn't quite add up because most of these grip masters are adjustable in this respect. And I would agree that using a grip machine this way would soon become a totally redundant exercise and a waste of time. But you don't have to be exerting your full energy into using them, they are adjustable. I don't think there are any substitutes for having both good technique and a good warmup regime, but I see no reason to use other means of warming up your hands rather than just playing scales etc. if the results translate.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322690477' post='1454670'] Sorry to say, but they dont do the job in the least. These grip master gadgets, while they may have their uses elsewhere, for playing bass, they are a waste of time and money IMO. Why ? Because they develop the hand to do the [b]opposite[/b] of what is required to fret a string. Minimal strength is required to fret a string. This strength is in all healthy people from an early age. Dexterity and stamina is what is needed. To do this, the tendons that [b]open [/b]the hand, i.e. lift them from one note to the next, without them getting in one an other's way, is what needs to be worked on. By gripping, you are developing muscles or tendons that are not required. [/quote] I totally disagree. I'm a regular gigging and recording musician, and am well aware of what I need to use to warm up before I play. Often it's a case in the winter months of donning a pair of gloves for the long journey in the cold van so when we arrive and have loaded in to our respective venue, I've got warm hands. You said it yourself: the muscle groups in your hands and wrists need warming up, and whilst there is a hell of a lot to be said for taking 10 minutes out before you start playing by blasting through your scales and arpeggios, sometimes if this hasn't been possible for whatever reason I've found those grippy things to be useful in warming up before I play. It has nothing to do with how hard or soft you play, I have my bass set up so that I can put in the most minimal amount of effort to get out the biggest sound, that's how I like it. But those grip masters categorically do warm up your major muscle groups in your hands. I'm not saying use these contraptions in isolation. It's best to have a good spread of exercises as go to options, but they certainly help and if the average player wishes to use them in this way then I don't see the problem, providing you're using them in the right way. I would add that is totally mad to dismiss exercises that seem in any way 'non-musical' on the bass. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think beginners should be taught the importance of exercising in musical ways so as to develop a good sense of how their instrument should be played as well as learning their notes on their fingerboard, but I know for certain that I often find myself playing very 'un-musical' things as a means of warming up. in conjunction with very musical warm-ups.

I think Coilte hit the nail on the head. Although I'm not familiar with the elastic band warmup exercise, there are practical ways in which you can warm up the muscles of your hands without actually playing your instrument. Those grip master things look silly but they certainly do the job. Also our guitarist who suffers from psoriatic arthritis (a young lad) likes to use one of those 'powerball' things before a performance. I thought of it as a bit of a placebo at first but after a few goes I would say it does the job.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1322675259' post='1454379'] Why did you deliberately edit out the bit where I state that [i]"I certainly don't wish to imply that I think people who can read, write & understand are somehow superior; that's not what I think at all".[/i] I don't think it's any less valid either, that's why I originally said the bit I just repeated. [/quote] That's why I said that I understood what you were saying with the '[i]I certainly don't wish to imply...[/i]' part, but perhaps I should have made this clearer! But you did say that you don't consider someone who doesn't read or understand theory a musician, unless I misread. That part we don't agree on EDIT - amended my last post, hope this is clearer.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1322673894' post='1454345'] I'd call them musicians because THEY UNDERSTAND MUSIC. Somebody could play an instrument & come up with perfectly good songs but not understand what they're doing in relation to the theoretical side, and also not be able to write it down in notation - I personally would not call them musicians even though they may be excellent at what they do. Probably 80% of the people I listen to would fall into this category. I certainly don't wish to imply that I think people who can read, write & understand are somehow superior; that's not what I think at all. [/quote] I understand your point, but I don't agree. There have been hundreds of years worth of of music passed down the years through aural tradition. This kind of musicianship is no less valid than the kind of musicianship that encompasses theory and reading, it's just that some schools of thought would have you believe this. There's no standardisation of music, just a lot of different kinds. I'd compare it to arguing that someone who is unable to write is therefore incapable of communication.

No but I've seen many quality turntablists in my time. Jazzy Jeff played in Liverpool a few years ago, and he was amazing. The guys that ran the club night always had an after party, which Jeff came back to this particular evening. As he was leaving the next day to go back to the airport, he declared that he'd had such a good night, would there be any else he could do before he left... so the guys had him filmed being thrown out of their front door a la 'Fresh Prince Uncle Phil' style!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8iHcJwiJys

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1322602263' post='1453490'] Question for you synth players - do you find lots of situations where you have to play parts with two hands, I mean use the left hand too? Or is left hand more 'dedicated' to just switching octaves and messing with pitch most of the times? In other words is it ok to do the shedding on synth with just right hand, or do I want to shed the left hand as well? easy Laimis [/quote] I don't think it matters, there are no set rules. I play almost exclusively with my right hand and do all the pitch bend and modulation wheel messing with my left. I think being adaptable with both has its merits, and if you're coming from a piano/keys background you're going to be just as adaptive with your left because you'll have spent you're whole life playing bass parts with your left hand.

I think the biggest thing is that people can buy what they want if they think it's worth it, it is after all your money and if you want make an investment in an instrument that is worth in excess of £2000 and can afford to do so then do it! So long as you enjoy playing it and suits what you do then it doesn't matter if the bass costs £100 or £100,000. Personally, I don't have that kind of money, but if I did have some cash for a new bass, I'd probably go out and buy a Sadowsky. I've played a few and they very much suit the kind of bass player I am. Equally I wouldn't care if someone said I could only ever play my Lakland for the rest of my life. It does everything I want it to do and it gets the job done... I also think it's a marvelous instrument. People put too much emphasis on how much basses cost. Past a certain price point, things get incredibly subjective.

To return to the OP, I've always thought that any bass is worth it if the person buying it is happy to pay the price tag, providing the fit and finish of the bass is really remarkable and the customer service between you and the company you've bought from is nothing short of incredibly comprehensive. People put too fine a point on how much a bass costs though. I would agree that an instrument worth in excess of £2000+ should be flawless, but as a bass player who plays instruments that cost a lot less, I can still get my job done either way. My desire is to own a Sadowsky, but I suspect this has more to do with what I want rather than what I need, and my Lakland that costs under half that of the bass I wish to own one day does just a fine job... better than fine in fact, I'm extremely happy with it.

For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder God Only Knows - Beach Boys Kid Charlemagne - Steely Dan There are tens of thousands I could choose though!