warwickhunt

On 10/11/2023 at 17:02, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Anyone still doing that 30 years ago was not adhering to established protocols. Not that the electric instrument industry has ever given that much mind. 🤥

If memory serves me (often doesn't) Trace Elliot used XLR on their cabs for quite a few years.

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That will result in a response cancellation notch centered around 80Hz. It wouldn't affect the comparison, they'd all suffer equally, but unless you're trying to reduce boomy response due to an 80Hz response peak you don't want a cab that far from the wall.  I won't venture an opinion on which is which, knowing that driver size alone only affects off-axis response.

Cheers Bill.  Actually your observation made me think about that and I realised my 'marker' was 1m from the wall to the 'front; of the cab; not sure if that alters that 80hz notch?

Even if not guessing which is which, it would be interesting if folk had a preference for 1 particular sample (or one they disliked) or even if folk thought there was very little difference.

I knew it was too easy!  LOL

On my laptop/screen the 5 actual sound samples appear at the foot of the first post (first one is 1:00, the others are 0:58) well just to confuse matters the first one (1:00) is actually C5 going down numerically to C1 being last... as clear as mud I'm sure!   

Lets see if it worked.

Just for a bit of fun I decided to do a little experiment and record a set of cabs to see if simply listening to them without seeing them, there was any discernible characteristics/differences.

I reiterate it was not scientific but I tried to keep some constants; I played into a looper, the mic and cab was placed in exactly the same place, amp settings were not changed (*) etc.  However there was one fly in the ointment in that one of the cabs was 4 ohm while the others 8 ohm.  It was immediately obvious when I hooked up the 4 ohm 2x12 cab it was significantly louder and put the recording in the red; (*) as a result I lowered the input gain on the amp to best match an average of the other cabs.  

There is one rogue recording.  I took the same signal from my amp via the pre out and fed that to my QSC K10 monitor (1x10 active cab), again I matched as best I could the approximate gain output (50% of travel on the output... not that it matters).

Sandberg with Aguilar JJ pups (passive)

Thunderfunk 550B

Aguilar DB112

Genz Benz NeoX 212

TC RS 210

TKS 115

QSC K10

The cab was located 1m from the nearest rear wall.

Mic was 2m from the front of the cab.

All cabs had a tweeter which was set at 50% (the QSC can't be adjusted).

I learned a lot doing this and I might do it again with a bit more detail. 

C5

C4

C3

C2

C1

Have a listen, make observations and ask questions.  I'll reveal which is which in a couple of days (the audio is labelled C1 - C5 but not in the same order as listed ).  

Room emptied of all cabs.  Tape marks on the floor for cab and mic position (cab 1m from rear wall / mic 2m from cab + 2m from rear wall)... nearly ready! 

Originally I was setting this up for fun to see if, in a real life setting (amp/cab in front of you), what differences might you expect and then actually hear if you were faced with a range of cabs of varying driver diameter.  This is skewed/compounded by the fact that every cab has a different sensitivity and in some cases an ohmage difference BUT I suppose that is part of the real world nature of my idea.  In truth it means that multiple drivers, sensitivity of drivers and the ohmage of the cab will most certainly skew any 'direct' comparison.  In real life if your 112 8 ohm cab was quieter than your 210 4 ohm cab, you'd just turn up a bit wouldn't you?

As per the poll result at the top I'll use single 8 ohm cabs (other than the GB212 which is 4 ohms).  

What I think I'll do is 1st pass I'll leave all volumes/settings the same and record as is (recording levels set to an approximation of the cab that I think is the average of all the cabs). 

Then I can do a 2nd pass and use the recording indicators/meters to try and get cab(s) to a matched level of input.  I do need to consider if I turn up the amp to get the meters to match or leave the amp setting and increase the gain on the recording.  I'll wait till I actually attempt this to see if I need to significantly alter the output gain on the amp, if I do I'll be sure to take notes and mention this.  It'll be a case of suck it and see but I don't want to be skewing things to advantage one cab over another... we'll see.    

Just as an aside I'm going to take a line out from the amp (Thunderfunk 550) and put it through my QSC K10 monitor cab.  I'll not be able to maintain equality of volume due to the monitor having the power amp.  However, using the meters in the recording software, I'll try and get it close.  I'm doing this just out of interest/curiosity (the reason for the whole thing I suppose) to see if my own perception is skewed by knowing it is a monitor and not a bass specific cab.

I don't think I'm going to immediately label each sample, I'll make it a blind test and then do a reveal.  

PLEASE this is just me with a bit of time (and cabs) on my hands, having a bit of fun and maybe it'll be of interest to a few, don't crucify me because it isn't remotely scientific; at least I'm trying to make it reasonably practicable and relevant.  

I reserve the right to scrap this if it turns out to be a right chew on!  LOL

3 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

What you get with the P2 though is touchscreen access to adjust presets, more effect blocks, and a tuner (that doesn't work on my open E), so to me that seemed to make it a better potential candidate for band practise sessions and possibly gigs - not having to change things via phone.....but yeah, now I'm not convinced it's worth the extra ££, especially as it is lacking the Bass specific stuff (which I assume, or hope, will come in an update).

 

I think I might head back to a trusty Zoom B1- Four for home and band practise, and stick with individual pedals for gigs (until a shiny new multi-fx catches my eye!). 

The P2's touchscreen is very handy but how often would you not have your phone with you regardless of if you had the P1 or 2?  P1 has the tuner so that isn't a deal breaker.  I think for a little bluetooth music practice tool and emergency interface for live, the Mooer is all I need and replaces my old Korg Pandora.  

53 minutes ago, SumOne said:

Sort of reluctantly, I'm going to return the P2 to Thomann while I can still get a full refund.

 

It is a good bit of kit, but is quite expensive at £209 and isn't really better than the Nux Mighty Plug (that I already have) for home practise, and although I only have a simple pedal setup for live use it can't replace pedals like the LS-2 for switching between two basses, or a stompable tuner/mute (unless getting the bluetooth footswich - in which case cost and size starts to creep up and then it seems why not get a cheap multi fx with footswitches), so it would be an addition to my pedalboard rather than replacing it.

 

It would be good as a pocket sized all-in-one pedalboard to take to band practise, but something like the Zoom B1 Four can do similar and save about £130  (allbeit a bit bigger, needing batteries/power supply, and no bluetooth to stream music). 

 

If I had a lot of spare ££ I'd keep it, but for me it just isn't adding enough to what I already have to justify keeping it.

 

Hopefully updates give it some Bass Amp/Cabs (although I find Amp sims are basically EQ points and a tone/gain levels of drive - so can be done with EQ and Drive effects blocks, and Cabs can be added as IRs), better tuner reading of a open E, some access to the drum loops/metronome directly on the device, and a low battery warning.

Hence I went for the P1; half the price and it has bass specific pre sets.   

3 minutes ago, 12stringbassist said:

This lot?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/292386708913525/

 

 

That's him taking the pic iirc.  

Not heard anything fresh.  If he is still performing with The Carpenters Experience, they are on in my home town in a couple of weeks.

18 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

It all gets a bit technical being a 7 piece and getting the sound right for us and the crowd.

 

Hmmmm... PA upgrade springs to mind but again I've no idea of the band/PA situation.  We don't use a sub(s) or anything, just decent quality RCF 15" full range cabs (not their top of the range) and I can put my bass through (no backline), along with the kick, snare, 2 guitars (no backline) and 2-3 vocals.  

6 minutes ago, SumOne said:

I think perhaps the simplest and cheapest solution for the time being will be to stick with my Amp/Cab and get some IEMs running from the mixer like most of the rest of the band do. ( I have kind of been looking for an excuse to get a FRFR though!). 

I'm not up on the ins/outs of the band and PA set up but one immediate thought for me is that if you go using IEM to hear the rest of the band clearer/better, then you will be isolating yourself more from your amp/cab on stage... unless you are taking a DI out to the PA just to feed the aux send / IEM (not FOH)?  How do the rest of the band hear you at present; is it from your backline?  

16 minutes ago, SumOne said:

Are any of you using a FRFR as your Bass Cab and a mix of the rest of the band's output as a monitor? 

 

I'm in a band that mostly uses in-ears and a mixer to PA, apart from me (and the drummer), I use a Amp/Cab and no IEM or monitor speaker. Often I'm stood behind the PA speakers, next to the drummer and in front of my cab - so I can hear Drums and Bass but not everyone else. I'm looking at getting IEMs, or a monitor wedge, but would changing my Amp/Cab for a FRFR work - can they easily be fed a mix of mostly Bass but also some of the rest of the band for a bit of monitoring? 

I've been in and out of where you are at for the last 12-18 months.  If you want to use monitor / FRFR I'd suggest finding a unit that has 2 inputs/channels which are useable together.  Take a line from whatever your bass source is and feed one channel, take a line from the PA (ideally your own aux if it is a digital desk, that you can mix as you want) and feed the other input.  You then have a quick easy manipulation of your bass independent of the PA feed (take your bass out of the PA feed to your monitor as it'll just cloud things).  One final tip/thought - can you mount this monitor/FRFR at ear level on a speaker stand off to the side?  It'll eliminate too much bass sub frequencies from floor coupling (incorrect terminology but you might know what I mean) and get the sound at your ear/head height, you'll not need to turn it up as loud.  

More learned types will be along with details but on a basic level you can't generalise and say 10/12/15 needs 'X' dimensions.  You start with what are the specs of your speaker not just the diameter, be aware not all manufacturers supply all the spec.  You take this spec and put it into an app (I dabbled with it and it's not 'that' hard... I'm over 60), which you then tweak to achieve what you want and the dimensions are given.  

There are lots of ifs and buts but if you know the manufacturer and speaker model number you can get a good idea of the volume required... you can decide how you achieve that volume with your height/width/depth.  

Of course you could just measure the dimensions of another cab and get a rough idea but as others will explain you could hit on but it might be pot luck how good it sounds (ports, vents, bracing, material density + thickness etc etc).

17 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

I thought the idea was to compare not make everything sound the same.

My initial thoughts were tonal differences between cabs/drivers as opposed to volume differences between 4 / 8 ohms.

I have Ableton Live II Lite on my laptop.  I'm going to try and get this set up this week, so I'll familiarise myself with the software and see if I can find a function to 'normalize'.

10 minutes ago, Pea Turgh said:

Isn’t there an app the other members of the band can download to their phones to control their own monitor feeds?  That would be one thing less for you to do!

We do this but you have to have trust that someone is going to log into their Aux feed and adjust levels... as opposed to someone else's feed or worst still, the FOH.  It has happened!   

2 hours ago, SamIAm said:

Would you be prepared to share these?

Sam x

I suppose many of these revolve around learning the major and relative minor scale(s), quickly identifying what key a song is in and then knowing the various permutations of the I / IV / V / VI (minor) progression (often used in pop/rock/blues).  I'm not saying this is the be and end all but if you are familiar with enough songs (learn as many as you can, even if you don't need to learn them), then you can easier identify songs with shared progressions.  There are many songs that don't fit with a 'regular' progression / note choice but that frees up your brain to work out those.  

I personally don't look for bass tab for songs as imho you get reliant on just learning that song and not the general way a song is constructed.  What I will do is Google the overall chord structure of songs I'm not familiar with and I can generally figure out what the bass is 'likely' to do to link together the chords... but as mentioned earlier you do have to be aware of a couple of basic scales and be aware that in certain instances things like 7ths may be flattened.  

All of this is a very brief summary of me trying to distil what it is I do, lots comes from playing music and trying to create your own music; you tend to learn what works together if you have to write your own. 

If you work full time, have kids, unfamiliar with songs or a long time since you were in the routine then 10 songs can be tough and likely not going to do anyone any favours.  I'm probably the other end of the spectrum and I do play a lot of gigs/songs; inc' dep gigs (rock covers) with 24 hrs notice to learn 20-24 songs BUT I have a huge repertoire gained over 40+ years of gigging and I have cheats/routines/knowledge that helps me 'learn' stuff.  Saying that if they are songs you're just not familiar with it is tough to do without cheat-sheets.  Does everyone else in the band have the time and inclination to learn 10... or is it you that'll bust a gut and others won't have bothered (got that particular T shirt)?

Yeah the P1 has bass specific amps and cabs; seems quite an oversight to remove from the upgrade P2.  

"I play jazz chord melodies"

"I am concerned with sweetness of tone/recording more so than loudness"

Based on those 2 statements alone I'd say you could use the term 'overkill'!  We have no idea of your band set up or situation; unless you are playing in a loud band with reasonable sized rooms and you don't need the PA to carry your sound, it'd be fine but for 90% of the time it'll be too much... based on info provided.

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

I still reckon halving the power is a good idea for an "everything is equal when it really isn't" test when the one cab is 4 ohm and dual driver.

 

Divide voltage by square root of 2 to knobble its sensitivity advantage. Intuitively that is much more equal than letting it rip with the same voltage as the 8 ohm single driver cabs.

You assume I have a means of measuring voltage... I'm playing a bass into an amp.    

I sent 8 basses and an amp to Will for commission sales and he has sold 7 of the 9 within 6-7 weeks.  Good comms and prompt payment to my bank, so I have no complaints!  

3 minutes ago, itu said:

Please use some uncompressed format (PCM, wav...) to record your test. Any coding may ruin results.

What sort of file sizes will I end up with?  I have to be aware of where I post/host them for accessibility.