AM1

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='468410' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:59 PM']But AM if you expect your comments to be given credibility by others on this forum then you *should* be clear about what your musical experience is - as any expert witness under cross examination might in a court room.[/quote] We are discussing music on an internet forum, not in court! Musical experience is not necessarily relevant to perception of sound. So, no, I see no need to publish music credentials in order to express an opinion about finding a certain tone to be distinctive, or indeed, really liking said tone. [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='468410' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:59 PM']You of all people should understand how credibility is established![/quote] Why? Another assumption there! Sound is subjective. Irrespective of music background, if different people listen to the same ampage, they will both hear different nuances and potentially have different opinions. Subjectivity cannot be made into objectivity by the qualification of the listener's experience. There are plenty of musicians with cloth ears and there are plenty of non musicians with great, perceptive hearing. The way that the human ear hears noise and even the ability to hear certain frequencies, are only a few of the variables that contribute to the subjectivity factor.

[quote name='mildmanofrock' post='468365' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:35 PM']Ouch - and so it goes on![/quote] Yeah! A few low-flying snipers, nothing that can't be deflected [quote name='mildmanofrock' post='468365' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:35 PM']No apology necessary AM - you make some good points.[/quote] And therein lies the problem When a young tadpole sneaks up out of nowhere and challenges the old Guard, they tend to get a bit restless.

[quote name='mildmanofrock' post='468351' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:29 PM']Woah, chill folks! Didn't mean to set sparks flying! I think everyone's points are valid. To me, Ampeg has a very distinctive tone - now whether that's down to my brain moulding it to meet my expectations of the brand, I don't know. I just know that it's earthy, growly and trouser flapping. But I also concede that it might be tricky for sound engineers to control the frequencies flying all over. Then again, I have little to compare it to. The only examples of EBS or Eden that I've heard online are by funksters/jazzers slapping, popping and pastoriusing (if that's not a verb, it should be) the hell out of their basses. That's not my bag at all. I'm more into the Chris Squire/Geddy Lee thing - not so much the music, but their sound and style. Interesting thoughts people - I feel more comfortable with my choice now! Cheers Steve[/quote] Glad you understand what I mean about the distinctive tone, I find the same. Sorry for the unintentional thread hi-jack!

[quote name='ped' post='468327' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:18 PM']How long have you been playing, AM1?[/quote] All in? Over twenty years. But that shouldn't make my opinion any more or any less valid. Sound is subjective.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='468309' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:06 PM']especially as having bought an amp with such a fine brandname one would want to be confident that no gear missing said logo could make such a wonderful magical sound but unfortunately there is more to amplification and bass tones than a name. Sorry.[/quote] I have no "brand" loyalty here. It's all about tone. If I tried a different amp tomorrow and liked the tone better for what I want to do, I'd ditch my existing amp. I tried a VAST array of other amps and cabs before making a final choice. For the sound that I like and wanted, none of them came close. If I could get the same tone from a no name amp churned out of a factory in China, I'd have bought it. It seems rather interesting that you appear to take issue over the fact that I am evangelising over my own ampage and how distinctive I find the tone. I love the sound, just as I have done for years, pure and simple. Not quite sure what the issue is here.

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='468311' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:08 PM'] Very entertaining.[/quote] Indeed! I would like to hear back from the OP as to his thoughts on internet subjectivity versus liking what you hear. Perhaps that is the really valuable aspect of the debate, not big semantic digressions into how it can't be possible to identify a certain tone! It can and it is. FACT.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='468305' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:04 PM']Every big gig Ampeg rig I've seen has had a Pod or some other pre-amp in front of it which is used for the FoH[/quote] But you did not qualify your original statement in this way. You made a sweeping generalisation. [quote name='BigRedX' post='468305' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:04 PM']I was going to bring this up the "music is crap" thread but it's moved on and you seem to have abandoned it anyway.[/quote] I'll come back to it when I get a chance. I didn't expect anywhere near the response that thread got and am way behind on it. [quote name='BigRedX' post='468305' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:04 PM']The reason that we don't have the faintest idea of you musical background is because you don't give us any. There's nothing on your profile page and no links in your signature to anything you've played on. From my PoV that makes you musically invisible.[/quote] Absolutely and that's my choice. I do not have to list my music credentials to have, or express an opinion. Equally, I do not judge the validity or credibility of other commentators posts based on what I perceive to be their musical "visibility". I did not realise that if one wished to comment on amplification that they should instantly provide their musical CV. That's an amusing concept. There's a lot to be said for quietly getting on with it.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='468271' date='Apr 21 2009, 11:42 AM']And so speaks the voice of experience... Alex[/quote] Since you haven't the faintest idea about my musical background, you are just demonstrating that your contributions to the debate are founded on conjecture and not substantive facts. It is interesting that since you have failed to advance your argument, your new strategy is denigration of experience, without actually knowing what that experience may be. Just for context, bass is not my first instrument - and playing any instrument, week in, week out, for years in a studio, one can still hear the bass ampage.

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='468250' date='Apr 21 2009, 11:24 AM']As I posted earlier, my old PJB rig could easily dial in a recognisable (and IMO better) Ampeg tone.[/quote] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

[quote name='alexclaber' post='468253' date='Apr 21 2009, 11:25 AM']I think if you know what you're doing you can get a similar tone out of countless different rigs. However most people don't know what they're doing. The concept of an exact Ampeg tone is farcical because there is so much variability from how you play the bass alone, even before you start looking at EQ and how hard different gain stages are being pushed. Alex[/quote] Ampeg has always had a very distinctive tone for me. Let me give you an example. A friend recently sent me a sound clip with a bunch of different amp sounds all recorded with gaps in between and said what's your favourite there. I was able to pick out the exact clip on which an Ampeg was used. I'm deadly serious - when you hear the same sound regularly for a long time, it becomes very recognisable.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='468229' date='Apr 21 2009, 11:07 AM']I really don't buy that. Yes the all-valve SVT and sealed 8x10" cab has a distinct sound but the rest of their gear varies hugely. I would suggest that if you see a rock band who have a nice fat rock bass sound happening and there's an Ampeg rig there then you attribute that to the rig when you could get that same sound from so many other rigs. Just like the hordes of guitarists out there believing that you can only get 'that' tone from a Marshall stack cranked up to 11. The power of marketing and subconsious self-persuasion... Alex[/quote] No Alex, the power of listening to it week in, week out for years! In fact, at a gig a while ago, I heard that unmistakeable tone from the back, thundering out. Sure enough, when I finally got down the front, there was an SVT head! So, what other rig do you think gives an identical Ampeg tone? This should be amusing.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='468180' date='Apr 21 2009, 10:22 AM']Remember though every time you see an Ampeg rig on a large stage its contribution to the overall bass sound both on stage and FoH is pretty negligible. The bass will be DI'd at some point - maybe even before it reaches the amp and unless your stood directly in front of the speakers you'll be hearing more from the monitors than than the amp.[/quote] I don't think such a sweeping generalisation is valid unless you have gone and asked the majority of Ampeg players on large stages what setup they use. I have seen Ampeg rigs being used by a few well-known bands in fairly large venues and the sound is unmistakeable, even with a bit of colouration from the PA. In fact, having communicated with a few bass players using these rigs for touring, the general consensus in the responses I received was that they avoid too much colouration from the desk and in fact one mentioned mic'ing the amp instead of DI'ing. I don't see the point of buying this kind of amp and then leaving it to the desk to colour the signal - that's the whole point of "post-eq" - to retain that lovely valve sound.

[quote name='mildmanofrock' post='467979' date='Apr 20 2009, 11:50 PM']I have an SVT 6 Pro and an SVT 410HLF. And I'm beginning to feel a bit foolish about it. I did my research. But I suppose after 15 years absence from bass playing, I was fixated with all things Ampeg. So, I bought it. And, to my ears, it sounds alright. Now, fumbling through bass forums, I find the world has moved on. Ampeg seems to have slipped a good few rungs on the ladder of low-end. Now it's all Eden, EBS, and Aguilar. What do you think? Does Ampeg suck bass balls compared to the rest? Will anyone leap to its defence? Is there a lone soul out there who's put an Ampeg up against an EBS and thought it trounced the Swedish upstart? Or should I admit my brand-loyal naivety, axe the Ampeg, and buy stuff beginning with 'E'?[/quote] Hi I love the Ampeg sound for bass and have done for years. It was the amp of choice for me when I started playing bass. That's not to say I did not see all the same opinions about other rigs, which made me decide to go and try loads of different amps and cabs with my bass to do a sound comparison. The Ampeg through an 8x10 was unquestionably the weapon of choice and blew all the others away. You have to be careful about reading forums where people rave about EBS and Eden, etc. These are also good but it is subjective opinion and correlates to what style of music is being played. I did a side by side comparison on EBS, Genz Benz and Ampeg and in my view, with proper configuration, the Ampeg sound absolutely blew them out of the water. EBS sounded very "clean" and hi-fi which I have no doubt is an optimal sound for jazz/funk. But for rock/punk, you cannot beat Ampeg. I don't want a clean bass sound and Ampeg gives me the sound I want. It's that simple. I also noted with the SVT head, you do have to put a bit of work into the configuration side. You can dial in different settings for different size of venues and different genres of music and the EQ lends some colour to the tonal palette. Before buying the SVT, I noted the same as you, that the forums are full of people raving about other rigs. But the subjectivity factor means you can't rely on opinions on forums too much. Your own ears should be the most important factor in judging whether you are happy. If you are happy with your sound, that's the key point.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='467718' date='Apr 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I spend too much time masturbating.[/quote] I guess that makes you a w*nker!

[quote name='Josh' post='467687' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:56 PM']Everyone learns differently, if I had to sit down with a book of sheet music to learn a new song every time I would've thrown in the towel ages ago.[/quote] I was commenting about the learning style that is specifically working for me. Everyone has a different background. I didn't suggest sitting down with music to learn a new song. I suggested that learning theory develops you as a musician. For example, learning intervals, scales, modes, arpeggios etc makes it easier to start recognising musical "patterns". I think listening and analysing music written by other people can be a much more valuable tool than spending hours trying to play certain pieces of music. [quote name='Josh' post='467687' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:56 PM']If their being put to regular use other than home practice I fail to see the use.[/quote] Well yeah, they were written for my band and get played live. Just spending a few months writing and developing basslines along with drum patterns has done much more for my musicianship than pissing about learning other people's basslines. I do jam occasionally but I know where to draw the line and recognise that it's essentially wasted time that I can be using to develop musicianship. [quote name='Josh' post='467687' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:56 PM']You will gain insight into how certain modes/scales work, phrasing, your ear will improve vastly (Mine sure has), you'll develop a knack for melody and harmony. Basically mostly everything that's in the basic of theory books, but the example is far more entertaining [/quote] I've spent years playing other people's music and if I could back, I would change it. I think music teachers steering students down the path of learning primarily other people's music is a travesty. In context - no one is saying don't ever learn other people's music. But it should NOT constitute the primary focus of musical development, certainly not to the point where it replaces learning any theory. Balance is good.

[quote name='SteveO' post='467692' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:59 PM']I disagree. I think it is important to play these tunes. I think it is important to play as many of other people's tunes as possible in order to connect with your instrument, whatever that may be. Learning all the thoery is all well and good, and running up and down scales arpegios and all the other excersises to train muscle memory is just as important, but I also think it is important to learn how other composers have managed to create *that* feeling or emotion in that musical context. You can sit down with the score and study it, you can listen to as many influences as you care to, but I am convinced that the best way to learn this is to play it.[/quote] I don't disagree with learning other music, but it should not be the focus of learning. [quote name='SteveO' post='467692' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:59 PM']I learnt music on the trumpet. I learnt all the big tunes that everyone plays (Haydn, Purcell, etc) as well as many others that hardly anyone plays. Over time (putting modesty aside) I became very proficient in playing the trumpet, to the point where I could 'feel' what was happening musicaly. Later I started to learn music theory in depth and quickly came to realise that I knew most of it, just not the names or the reasons why such and such notes worked in that particular context. Now that I write music semi-profesionaly I generate all my melodies by mentaly playing the trumpet. Then i'll work out what the notes are and get them down on paper. I just can't do this on the Bass or Piano (yet) and whilst I can do it the other way round (work out what notes I need to generate the required emotion) it takes much much longer and I loose that creative spark by thinking too much about it. The point is that I connected with the trumpet through playing vast amounts of music over the years and I firmly believe that If I hadn't done it that way then I wouldn't be as good as I am.[/quote] Bass is not my first instrument. I've served my time, in spades, spending years learning other people's music. Playing the bass has given me an insight I wish I had years ago, that musicianship (for me) is not about other people's music and definitely not about only being to play off dots. Everyone's musical background is different. [quote name='SteveO' post='467692' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:59 PM']Of course this is all IMO etc, but I'd be supprised if you could name One famous musician who learnt their instrument through only playing their own music, (and scales etc).[/quote] Ha. Ha ha ha ha. Think about this some more! My point was, playing exclusively only other people's music can be constraining.

[quote name='Josh' post='467650' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:23 PM']I tried learning most of the "Essential" bass songs, I gave up half way through most of them because it was more irksome than it was fun and I noticed that if I carried on being infatuated with the one player I would no doubt turn into that which I disdain the most, and that's a clone.[/quote] Amen to that. If you focus too hard on learning certain people's basslines, you constrain the development of your own style. I like to see a bass player with a distinct bass playing "personality". [quote name='Josh' post='467650' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:23 PM']Truth is, there are going to be plenty more bassists who will sit and learn trick after trick after trick until their blue in the face and are 30+ and playing Level 42 for a hobby,[/quote] Good example. There's plenty of these guys around and whilst they tend to be technically good, there's no feeling whatsoever in their playing. Anyone can learn to become a "technician" by playing someone else's basslines in the same style. But a vast majority of players have not developed "musicianship" i.e. phrasing, feel, groove. A player with fantastic phrasing beats a "technican" hands down, every time.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='467447' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:50 PM']I was reading the thread from the guy that wants to learn Bakithi Kumalo's line on 'You Can Call Me Al' and noted a few people said it was something they had learned/wanted to learn. Having a perverse sense of perspective, my immediate thought was 'why'? We all do it. There is a list of bass lines that seem to be essential learning for bass players; 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', 'Teen Town', 'Amazing Grace' by Wooten, that thing by Stu Hamm - you know the stuff I am talking about. It's all over YouTube. I think its probably fair to say that the kids that don't do these things and focus on the core knowledge are probably going to be better that those that can execute the party pieces but can't really play music. For the record, I haven't learned Kumalo's line but did do Teen Town, Berlin's 'Bach' solo, 5G, Motherlode etc and a couple of bits of Stu Hamm! I am as bad as anytime in this area of wastage but urge developing players not to waste time on juggling and 'play the damn music' Listen to the grooves and don't worry about the fills; they're not important![/quote] I couldn't agree more. I started out by learning a few basslines and quickly concluded that this as a learning style is not really conducive to player development. I've dumped learning other people's basslines and now spend hours writing/developing my own basslines and learning theory/technique stuff. It takes a lot of discipline to step away from learning basslines, there are countless basslines I would love to sit down and learn. But what will I really gain in terms of musicianship? Now and again I jam along to music to break up the boredom of theory, but ultimately doing proper music study is my weapon of choice. Anyone can be a bassline jukebox if they put the hours in, but being an actual bass player is a different proposition. All in my humble opinion.

[quote name='The Funk' post='467162' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:47 AM']Don't pursue this line of questioning. Phil Collins was known as a kick-arse prog rock drummer before he started delving into the world of noise gates. [/quote] Are you following me? Come on, what's this gate business all about?

[quote name='silddx' post='467499' date='Apr 20 2009, 02:51 PM']I can imagine This is the one thing I miss about going the POD route, I don't get my internal organs messed around anymore. I played through my mate's old V4B with an 8x10, boy that Ampeg sound is awesome![/quote] Yeah I play through a Trace Elliott 8x10 every week, thunderous bass sound! I don't need a fan, the amount of air being blasted out of that cab cools me down nicely! Great sound! Especially with a tasty amount of gain cranked up. The SVT lives at the end of my bed. In fact, I am gainfully wasting the afternoon playing through it now while pretending to do constructive stuff. Life is good!

[quote name='silddx' post='467440' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:43 PM']Nice![/quote] Yeah! The Precision sounds like sexual chocolate through it!

[quote name='silddx' post='467415' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:08 PM']Erm, you don't have an amp [/quote] I should update my sig I suppose..got an SVT3 a while ago. It is truly an object of deep joy.

[quote name='bassman2790' post='467207' date='Apr 20 2009, 09:07 AM']Do they know best though? Anyone who has been to JB's in Dudley will confirm that the engineer there just loves drums, above all else. You'd think that someone would say something or he would be shown the door but he's been there years. If our engineer was running an X3 Live in his rack set-up, I would feel more confident that he could achieve a decent FOH sound but this is not the case and all I am getting is basically a balanced bass signal fed directly into the desk. Surely using an X3 Live is adding colouration to the sound of your bass tone in a similar way as the engineer getting the post-eq feed from my Trace, no?[/quote] Hi again If you don't want to rely on sound guys for a decent bass sound and taking into account your other thread, it would be probably be better for you to wait and get a decent head/cab and use post EQ. In the case of my amp, if the pre-eq button is engaged, this will not affect the outbound signal, i.e. an uncoloured signal will go straight from the amp to the desk. Therefore the engineer has control and that lovely tube sound is lost. You can also use a footswitch then the EQ on the front can be used like a boost of effect (preamp eq) so when you step on the switch the EQ'd sound will be heard through the DI on the back as this is all part of the preamp stage, as long as the POST EQ is ON at the back. With post EQ on, you are sending the amp sound to the desk. On my amp, the line out level on the back lets you adjust the signal being sent to the desk even with the master volume down. This is a good feature as you can turn the master right down to hear exactly what is being sent to the desk without the onstage cab adding to the sound. Just remember to turn the master back up if you want to hear yourself on stage. Ha ha!

I know I'm only a tadpole but I tried quite a few precisions vs jazzes and couldn't get along with precisions originally. Until a few months later when I tried a few more, now I am pretty much in love with them! The sound is absolutely fantastic, great tone. If you don't like the neck, stick on a jazz neck. The tone through an SVT3 is mind blowing.

[quote name='graemecohen' post='344240' date='Dec 3 2008, 04:37 PM']I have to admit to me it's quite frustrating following along with Jamiroquai records. Having been in the studio playing around with various production tools for quite a while now I find I can pick out some of the studio tweaks imposed on the bass. In particular the use of gating and high quality Eq's make a such difference to the phrasing and the tone of the bass that some songs are near impossible to reproduce satisfyingly with just a bass and an amp. Saying that, practise does, of course, make perfect. It just seems to me studio makes perfect-er. EDIT - didn't realise this thread was ages old![/quote] Hi I know this thread is old, but can you tell me what the gating does to the phrasing of the basslines?