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[quote name='Doddy' post='1017546' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:04 PM']I never said your limits were less worthy than mine.[/quote] So you admit you have limits then?

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017525' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:53 PM'][b]That's all about perspective.I would rather not set any limits for myself,why would I want to? I obviously have areas of music that I favour,but I don't want to rule out anything.[/b][/quote] But [i]"The bass-both electric and upright- are my chosen instruments and I constantly aim to play it at a higher standard than 'good'. However,as a musician, I do understand the roles of the instruments in the orchestra. And although I haven't studied 'non-western' styles in any particular depth,I do have both books and recordings of them. What I'm getting at,is I would rather aim to be a musician who plays bass than solely a bass player. That's not a derogatory thing at all-I have a total obsession with the bass,but I also want to look at music from other perspectives rather than just my chosen instruments particular role."[/i] are the current limits you have set yourself. I don't imagine you will be booking sarod or mbira lessons anytime soon. My limits are different, but no less worthy than your own.

[quote name='Mog' post='1017507' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:39 PM']I cant agree with you on that point bud. Tab yes but sheet music no. A proper score will give you everything you need except instructions re eq/tone. I think someone touched on the point earlier about your ears knowing what to do next. IMO, (and its just an opinion) terms like grooving, funking, jazz improv, whatever are usually used by musicians who dont (not cant) dont use sheet music and let EXPERIENCE guide their hands. That experience is ultimately theory. If and when musicians let their experience/ears/feel/the groove guide them, they are falling back on what they know will work, ie knowledge acquired, which ultimately is exactly what theory is. Theres no right or wrong here peeps......... No matter what way its buttered its gonna fall on the same side. (My vague comment for the day )[/quote] Nope, NOTHING on paper can help anyone play reggae. NOTHING. Simple in essence, impossible to convey without actually hearing it. You cannot intellectualise it at all. Whereas, although huge levels of feel are required, it is possible to do that with latin music, which can be very complicated and relies upon its proponents having the clave in their head. I believe this is why western jazz musicians are often drawn to its mysteries, like a challenging puzzle, because it appears to them to be worthy, unlike something like reggae, which every white man except Paul Simonon will find almost impossible to execute with style and feel.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1017466' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:20 PM'][/quote] That was a broad statement not aimed at you particularly. Except to say you, possibly joking, advise EVEYONE to learn to read. But I have a big problem with this approach because it is not always appropriate and the tutors can cause severe problems in the pupil, perhaps putting them off learning music, or giving them false expectations, like thes ebloody music colleges like BassTech. Full of kids who want to be VERSATILE and become a WELL PAID session musician to the stars. Most of them will end up serving flat whites to poorly dressed clerks. I had dreams of playing massive stadia to adoring fans when I was a kid. But I didn't get fleeced by a music college and get those dreams milked for all they're worth by a buch of vultures and still come out with mediocre (but versatile!) skills. That's why most of the teachers there are not really making much cash from sessions and gigs, and have to teach to supplement their income, and most of the students are young and impressionable.

Thanks for the answers everyone, much appreciated.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017442' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:03 PM']I find being the most versatile musician I can be both good thing and very fulfilling.[/quote] Then you are being yourself, and that is wonderful, and to be celebrated. However, are you perhaps neglecting certain areas of your playing in your quest to be versatile? I have to assume here that [b]what you mean by versatility[/b], is that you aim to both understand the role of the [b]bass [/b]and play it to a good standard whether improvising or reading off sheet, and be able to play to a high standard various styles of western music, on the bass. AM I right in that thinking? Or do you mean by [b]versatile[/b] that you are learning to play all the instruments of the orchestra and understand their roles theoretically and be able to improvise and read off sheet for those instruments? Then you will no doubt progress onto the North and South Indian, Arabic, Chinese, Gamelan and other classical and folk styles. What I am saying is that even incredibly schooled and technically adept musician is only versatile within the limits they have set themselves. In the grand scheme of music, one has to be a bit more philosophical about how to apply one's intellect and resources to the musical situations one wishes to encounter.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1017417' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:44 PM']You are probably right.[/quote] I know I am right dearest Bilbo, it's simply a matter of you accepting that music theory and reading skills are not a panacea. And that being most versatile musician possible is not necessarily either a good or fulfilling thing, just as being the most versatile human being would be a ridiculous endeavour. Just be yourself.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1017424' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:48 PM']None of that will work. Gear is just gear. You'll have to change your feel.[/quote] s'right.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017325' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:25 AM']Basically,what Pete said. The MD role varies slightly depending on the situation and the level,but the job is basically the same. Booking the band,arranging tunes,sort out rehearsals,call the tunes,counting in,some write charts,some programme parts,hire and fire. They are,importantly,the one who takes all the sh*t from the artist or company or whatever if things go wrong. Also,depending on the level of the gig,they can be the ones who not only take the gigs,but also sorts out things like food,accommodation,travel and money.Sometimes they even have to sort out things like arguments between members-basically they are in charge of the band and putting in a good performance.[/quote] Bandleader/Tour manager/sh*t-taker. Sounds like a barrel of laughs!

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017398' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:28 PM']Eh? [/quote] My reaction is the same Anyway, whatever, it doesn't matter how much theory you have or how good you can sight read, only certain people can play reggae, and there is absolutely no way to put down on paper how to play reggae that has the desired effect on the other band members and the audience. Funk is similar, it's a way of life. EDIT: Disclaimer, this does not mean I am justifying illiteracy, that I am insecure or need to downplay the literate.

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='1017338' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:34 AM'][b]Can I just ask why so many threads recently decend into this weekend rockstars who play bass versus pro musicians who play bass? [/b] If you go and play some great music you like with your mates and are happy with it then be happy. Listen to more types of music if you want but thats fine, but why knock guys who do it as a living? Yes you probably sound great but why the inferiority complex with guys who make their living from this so need to know their theory, notation etc.? Equally for a lot of types of music you don't need to study massivly. If you can play bass apropiate for the music you're playing then great. Personally- I'm self taught and of a moderate standard. I don't put so much of my identity in bass playing that i act like a t!t every time a better player turns up, I try and learn from them, whilst at the same time realising unless I put all my time into it they will possibly always be better. My girlfriend studies liguistics, she knows all the theory of english (and german) languages and how sounds work and lots of stuff, she's pretty clever. I'm an art graduate who used words in my work, I know little theory and are not massivly widely read. She could do stuff I can't and has a way with words. Except we could both write you poems that would be pretty good. Just in differnet ways[/quote] Why don't you try to work out why? If indeed that's what is happening. I don't think that is what happens. What really happens is there are one or two people who like complicated and non-repetitive music and state that in order to play that music one needs an academic understanding of music. I tend to agree that such and eduction makes for a much more efficient musician. Yes sir. The problems start when certain black and white assertions are made that tend to polarise opinion. No amount of practice or theory or reading will help you if you don't WANT to do it. A reasonably intelligent musician should relatively easily work out what is necessary for them to attain their desired musical outcome. Beware of snobbery though. There are people about who genuinely look down upon the illiterate musician, regardless of their ability to emotionally move people with their songwriting or ability on an instrument, which is the primary purpose of music. "Yes!" they will pronounce, "but they would have been so much better if they'd learned thoery and how to read!".

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1017287' date='Nov 9 2010, 10:37 AM']It is an issue that jazzers are dealing with more and more although there are barriers - the budgets for international touring jazz musicians are probably less than that of Cetera's 'Dressed To Kill' package so light shows etc are usually pretty basic. There are many jazz musicians who are great at engaging the audience but it is true that when you are playing your butt off on a complex set of compositions, the concept of 'putting on a show' in the sense you mean it is a secondary consideration. [b]Dan compositions are undoubtedly exceptional in terms of being a cut above but most of them are, fundamentally, quite simple. [/b]I played Black Friday at a recording session last week and, frankly, its a thumper Some of the more complex Dan tunes may take a little more work but they are not actually that difficult to pull off. To play them like the Dan do is another matter and I am in awe of their performances but a lot of that is down to the calibre of the (mostly jazz) musicians they employ and the massive amounts of rehearsal time they put in not the innate qualities of their compositions.[/quote] And so are most jazz tunes.

I am still confused about this role. I presume it is a management role that gets a band and its music fit for tours and recording, usually one of the band, probably a hired gun, who has excellent sound production, musical arrangement and theoretical knowledge and skills. Am I right thereabouts?

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1017236' date='Nov 9 2010, 09:51 AM']You write it out, I'll play it. I think one of the aspects if the argument that has not been mentioned relates to the complexity of the music being performed. Most rock/pop music etc is pretty basic and being able to groove by ear is a credible prospect as the core of the music to be performed is very simple and idiomatically familiar. Some forms are, however, more complex and require a considerable amount of detail the learning of which is problemtaic. A sax player playing a solo over a 12-bar jazz blues may be possible with no knowledge of theory but playing over Lush Life, Chelsea Bridge, Upper Manhattan Medical Group or Giant Steps 'by ear' is a different prospect altogether. Is it credible to expect orchestral musicians to learn Stravinsky's Rite of Spring 'by ear'. Or a trumpet player to learn a full big band so they can play it live without charts (to create that illusion that someone mentioned )? So, if all you ever play is low brow groove orientated thumpers, as most do, then you can get away with it, especially as a bass player. If you want more (and I certainly do), your going to struggle without some form of knowledge of notation. I find that the number and type of gigs I do militate against the kinds of familiarity you get from playing regularly with just one band. I am rarely playing anything often enough to learn it by rote. The dots help me to play more and more music and to stay fresh and interested. Another aspect is improvisation. Improvising over simple forms is possible by ear but more complex structures will require more academic knowledge in order to avoid boring yourself and the audience with cliches.[/quote] I doubt anyone could argue with that, other than to challenge perhaps the notion that "groove oriented thumpers" are low brow, since to engage the audience there are very many more performance aspects involved, creating a rapport with the audience with such things a banter, image, movement on the stage, etc. Image management. These are also learned skills which many bands neglect to their detriment. I doubt I would be able to impress upon most jazz musicians the importance of such things, as they seem to be of little importance to the jazz musician, just as high levels of theoretical knowledge and ability to read notation are not as important to musicians like me and Pete, even though we play a lot more complex music than "groove oriented thumpers".

[quote name='peteb' post='1017016' date='Nov 8 2010, 11:03 PM']That's hardly the point - whether you like it or not Chris Suire has created memorable and influential music and sold million of records without making a great deal of compromise to do so! Jeff Berlin is known as a technician, appeared occasionally as a sidemen when the original artist was unavailable and appeared on niche jazz albums of questionable merit and some bleedin awful solo ones...![/quote] And apparently sacked from Zappa's band when he was found to have been trying to secretly renegotiate his fee along with Vinnie Colaiuta.

sh*t! I meant to post this in the White Basses thread :/ I look like a right c*** now.

I've wanted a bass that looks like Chris Squire's modified Electra Outlaw MPC X610 for quite a while, but with the cost of getting a body made being about £300 from any decent luthier, it was a bit prohibitive. But my mate Adam agreed to make one for me for the cost of materials. Naturally I gave him double that for his time and effort, Thanks Adam So with that in mind I bought a B stock Warwick Rockbass Streamer Blackhawk from Thomann to scavenge for the neck and other parts. It was actually a starter kit so it came with a Warwick 30w amp, strap, cable, gigbag, etc. I sold everything on ebay I didn't need. All I kept was the neck and the pickups. It's time for a bit of a review of it, and some pictures and a better video of Tempus Fugit, I made too many mistakes in the last one so I did it again. Here is it, followed by the pics and review. [u][b]Parts, Cost and Spec[/b][/u] £35 : POSTAGE COSTS - for parts (I was not charged duty on anything from the USA! Lucky that ) £100 : BODY - Seraya Mahogany. Made by my mate Adam. £65 : BODY FINISHING : Tonetech Luthier Supplies Oly White pre-cat Nitro rattle cans x 3, sheets of wet and dry, milliput, tack rag. £90 : NECK - 3-piece Maple/Polished Rosewood 'board. From a Warwick Rockbass Streamer Blackhawk B-stock starter kit for £260. I sold the amp and other hardware and kept the neck and the MEC pickups so I made about £130 back. £26 : NECK INLAYS - Creative Cuts Roman Numeral Vinyl. £40 : PICKUPS - MEC from the Rockbass Streamer Blackhawk. £90 : TUNERS - x 4 Hipshot Ultralite GB7 Gold (from USA on Ebay). £45 : D-TUNER - Hipshot GB7 Gold (from USA on Ebay). £90 : BRIDGE - Hipshot Black Brass Rickenbacker Replacement (from USA on Ebay). £73 : PICKGUARD - Mirror blank from WD (£28). Made by Jon Shuker (£45). £89 : TOP NUT - Warwick Brass JAN-III £8 : NECK SCREWS & BUSHINGS - Gold- From Warwick in Germany. £9 : BARREL JACK - Gold- From Warwick in Germany. £20 : STRAPLOCKS - Gold- From Warwick in Germany. £215 : EAST PREAMP - U-Retro 4-knob Gold. This is a new product and not on his site yet. It's basically the 5 knob U-retro with the Blend and Volume as a stack. £25 : STRINGS - DR Black Beauties 105 - 45 (from USA on Ebay). [b]£1,020 : TOTAL BUILD COST[/b] (A f*** of a lot more than I intended, but worth it!) The bass weighs 9lbs 13oz so it feels fairly heavy, but the bridge alone weighs 1lb 8oz! [i][b]Body and Neck[/b][/i] The body is a three piece made from Seraya Mahogany (Philippine Mahogany). 44mm thick. My friend Adam made it for me to my design. He did a cracking job and even though he's never made a neck pocket before, he did it beautifully and it fits like a glove. It's finished in Tonetech pre-cat nitro Olympic White. No clear coat. It took three rattle cans. The body was risky because grave doubts were raised about the balance. But I knew the body was heavy at 44mm and the hardware was heavy too, also the Hipshot Ultralite tuners weigh next to nothing. In the end, this is a perfectly balanced bass. It has a Hipshot Bras Rick Replacement bridge. Simple, beautiful, great engineering. It would have been even better if it was top loading but we can't have everything. I fitted gold Warwick security locks which work perfectly and look nice. Jon Shuker made the pickguard to my 1/1 scale drawing and it is a superb piece of work. The neck is fairly chunky, nearer to Warwick necks from a few years back than their current ultra-shallow necks. I like it though and I'm used to them. It's essentially a chunky Jazz neck with a nut width of 38mm. Perfect for me as I don't like P-Bass width at all. The fingerboard is glassy, highly polished and highly figured rosewood, plastic side dots and has a Warwick brass JANIII top nut which I bought as a serious luxury item (£89 ), it is superb though I sanded off the Rockbass logo from the headstock and truss rod cover and have left it plan black. On went the gold reversible Hipshot Ultralite tuners and a Hipshot D-Tuner (Bass X-Tender). [u][b]John East Preamp U-Retro Deluxe 4-Knob[/b][/u] John is a very helpful and very nice man. We had a chat and he recommended this pre. It was easy to install as there is no soldering required. It has a Blend/Volume Stack, Bass/Treble Stack with Pull for Bright, and Mid Sweep/Boost0Cut Stack, and a Passive tone circuit knob. It's very easy to use and works brilliantly. I love this bass, it plays very smoothly and sounds a bit like a Rickenbacker. It has a tight low end which needs a bit of boosting as it's not as resonant as my Warwicks, but it feels more controllable. It balances beautifully and is very comfortable to play. Strings are DR Black Beauties. Cheers all.

[quote name='skej21' post='1016789' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:27 PM']Haha. I was just joking. I actually play in a classic rock "originals band" and it's one of the best gigs I have. I'm just trying to highlight how stupid and outrageous most of the posts on here are. If it makes you feel any better, I'd also rather have my ears cheesegrated off than listen to the modal jazz groups (including mine) who would happily play to their guitar neck all night long and play all of the notes in the "wrong" key, just to make themselves look clevererererer. At the end of the day, why don't we all just do what we think is good for us as individuals and stop trying to goad people into arguments about nothing? [/quote] Ah sorry, it's that things like that have actually been said on here about us illiterate folk, I assumed you meant it, I apologise.

[quote name='skej21' post='1016729' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:57 PM']It's a matter of opinion at the end of the day. I'd be very happy listening to a tribute act who were really accurate in their exact musical copies of classic songs. Or a covers band who played songs from charts/notation/memory and did a good job of playing a song I knew to a good standard. Or a band who created good music. Good MUSIC, regardless of it's origin! [b]However, I'd rather cheesegrate my ears off than listen to a sloppy, egotistical rock band that play "original music"... Just because you can find a different permutation of the three power chords you know, doesn't make it original or interesting.[/b][/quote] I will try not to descend into profanity, but that statement, if you meant it, is one of the most condescending and arrogant statements I think I've come across on here recently. And it says an enormous amount about your personality and your approach to music. Really disappointing

[quote name='Doddy' post='1016679' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:31 PM']To a point. You can get a hell of a lot of information on to the page,and a group of good players will be able to make it come alive. Last week I did a couple of theatre gigs with an act from Las Vegas. The band (all nine of us) sight read the charts and totally nailed it in terms of groove and feel,as well as being tight as hell. So much so,that we've now been offered a good theatre tour next year. Everything that we needed was on the charts.[/quote] That is wonderful, for YOU. A theatre tour sounds like hell for me, it is absolutely NOT what I got into music for. I like rocking out on a stage and pumping out original music, that's what [b]I[/b] like to do.

[quote name='risingson' post='1016659' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:17 PM']Also, I hate the word groove, it's bandied around too much to describe bass players and drummers often in a totally contrived way. But that's just me being massively cynical.[/quote] I tend to agree, I think it's overused and misunderstood, and really, it doesn't mean sh*t. Music is all about taste. Theory and notation can't teach you taste, and it cannot make you into a musician WITH taste. We are all immensely limited as musicians, even if we are Mozart, Zappa, Alain Caron. Learning theory and notation makes you less limited, however only by a little when all things are considered. I get the feeling that some of the literate musicians on here really believe that learning all that theoretical and visual stuff about what is an auditory medium will elevate one to great musical heights, when really it is only a matter of efficiency, it is a facilitator, and if it is taught badly it can have a very negative effect on the pupil. But all that matters in the end is if YOU and OTHER PEOPLE like your music, whether its a four note penny whistle melody or a concerto for full orchestra. Your musical desires will dictate your toolbox if you think about music intelligently and soulfully.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016622' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:38 PM']I bet Bilbo can play in 24/13. I must have missed that chapter![/quote] I can play polyrhythmically over odd time sigs and I do it by ear and feel. That's not something theory can help you with very much, and although reading would enable you to, you would still need to feel it or it will sound dead as dead. Notation is extremely useful but it can only convey basic intent in terms of feel. That's why you need a conductor-musicologist for orchestra.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016566' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:53 PM']Its overrated I do think people are advocating for ignorance, albeit unconsciously. We al do it all the time - its how we get out of doing the laundry. In order to feel good about the ways in which we behave, we need to convince ourselves that our choices are valid. If we choose not to read, we need to feel that that choice is legitimate and not simply a case of us not havign invested in what is necessary to be a fully developed musician. So we fill our heads with little lies and haf-truths that make this an ok choice: so & so can't read and he is great ergo I can't read and I too can be great. Additionally, if I can convince everyone else that this is so, I will be affirmed in my belief and can ignore that nagging doubt that I have in the back of my mind that I am missing out on something. Something wonderful. We you can't and you are.[/quote] Dear Bilbo, it is about balancing priorities. I have other interests and demands outside of music. My bands, and my abilities, render my personal need to read music of far less importance than my need to go fishing, or to be able to cook well and expand my food knowledge, to be with friends, listen to the radio .. I enjoy all these distractions, learning to read music would be a waste of my time at the moment, i can't justify the skill, I am balancing my priorities.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1016532' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:26 PM']Yeah but how many different chorus sounds do you [i]need[/i] on a gig? One or none, in my experience! So a stomp box is the ideal solution.[/quote] Depends on the gig. Dan's in a D&B sort of band, so he needs lots. I'm in a pop band that needs a a few different sounds, and a more theatrical sounding chamber-pop band that I use a good number of different sounds and effects for, and lots of volume pedal. It's not just about turning one effect off and on either, how about turning off your flanger, delay, compressor and switching to a new eq pattern simultaneously?

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016525' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:22 PM']And how many wonderful stories are lost forever? I read somewhere that there is a relationship between literacy and progress and that this relates to the ability of a literate society to record its ideas and replicate concepts easily (like how to manufacture things etc). My point is simple. If Fred, in Australia can read music, and Bert in the UK can write it, they can communiate ideas. More to the point, if Fred is in France and can write it, he can communicate ideas to Ivan in Russia, who speaks neither French or English.. More to the point, if Fred can write music in 1926 and Bert can read it is 2010, the idea lives on. If Fred can write it down but Bert can't, then the idea dies with Fred. Its a more efficient and effective way of communicating, if all parties are able. If reading is not a requirement, a reader can still play and groove. If reading is a requirement, a non-reader won't know what groove to play until it is too late. When I do a reading rehearsal, we can get through 20+ tunes a session. If we learn by rote, we get three down if we are lucky (depending on the complexity of the music). I can turn up at a recording session (like I did last week) with players I barely know and record 5 tunes in 3 hours without any rehearsal. Why anyone would not want to be able do that is beyond me. I believe that people who, albeit by unconscious implication, advocate for ignorance in others in order to allow themselves to feel ok about their own are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. If you can't read, its nothing to be ashamed of. But it is certainly nothing to be proud of either. Read the signature [/quote] So much for the oral tradition, which tends to separate the wheat from the chaff over time. Music notation means that Shaddupa Yer Face is here forever. I'm just kidding, sort of. No-one is advocating ignorance.