tegs07

My daughter has recently shown an interest in playing bass. After a couple of lessons using a Fender Jazz it became quite obvious that this was an instrument designed with a male player in mind. I have a Sandberg Cali and the dimensions and neck profile are far more comfortable for her to play. It’s lighter and  more ergonomic.

It may just be a matter of ladies hunting down a more ergonomic bass as a lot of the more common models are definitely heavy and not a great fit for the female form.

4 minutes ago, Tim2291 said:

You mentioned in a previous post that you wouldn't pay to go and see a local band... How are they supposed to move forward with their career if people can't be bothered to go and see them? A local gig is what, £5 a ticket? You may see some awful music, but you may also see something spectacular! Even the Beatles started as a local band! As @EBS_freak has pointed out above though, we are targeted at all levels to play for "free" and "exposure" so we aren't really talking about the just starting out local bands here. I stand by it, if the promoter wants them to play they should be paid. If they are trying to get exposure, go to open mic nights etc.

I did pay for years as a teenager.

Most artists were average, some sloppy and some downright abysmal. Very occasionally there was a gem.

Im in my 50s now and still support live music but rarely want to go out and find bands. I don’t have the time. Often it’s bands I have heard on Spotify or at a festival on some lowly stage that I pay to see when playing locally.

3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Funnily enough, this week, I've had an agency contact me about doing a carnival 3 and a half hours way. 7 piece band. Fee? Free.

 

I politely declined. The band would be heavily in debt for petrol costs for the 7 hours round trip for starters before we'd even played a note.

 

Interesting enough, I went to the carnival page, and there they are, no surprise, asking for donations to fund it. I found it interesting that the ask for anybody freebies, musicians are the first to target. I wonder if they paid to go through an agency to avoid the onslaught from the bands.

I don’t blame you. If you are at a stage in your career where you can charge for your services why do it for free?

I doubt that event has any accomplished artists  playing and people will see that reflected in the lineup and ticket price.

8 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Screw asking musicians to play for a decent money. It's nothing but a hobby.

 

What I want to know is, despite all these "hobbyist" gardeners, why can't I find anybody to sort out my back lawn.

 

Raging.

I mess about with a bit of gardening and plumbing. I’m about as good as I am at playing the bass. I could charge you money to do it? Or you may just go to a check-a-trade website and find someone qualified, with experience and good reviews.

Pretty much all the musos I know making a living have booking agents and get work via word of mouth in much the same way. All of them started off playing pubs, school events, community type things for free or low pay at some stage in their careers.

I don’t think it’s as clear cut as being made out. There needs to be provision for all stages of a musician’s career.

13 minutes ago, Tim2291 said:

 

And herein lies the issue the OP of this has highlighted. Musicians are arguing that musicians shouldn't be paid for their work and are therefore devaluing their own craft... almost suggesting that it isn't a real job.

 

My comments aren't necessarily to do with originals bands, covers band regularly get asked to pay for free as well. I've been asked to do weddings, parties etc for free in the past, I politely declined.

 

My overwhelming experience when I was playing originals on tour was that promoters will do anything to not pay the bands. We played sold out shows, 250+ people paying to get in then buying drinks at the bar and have been told that they can't afford to pay the bands... clearly not true. That was the common theme throughout most of the UK. If an originals band is struggling to get known, then they need to evaluate why, like any business, if nobody is buying their music then like any product, it needs to be changed for the market. 

Sounds like you have honed your craft, found your sound and found an audience so will get paid and find venues that will pay you as you will bring in an audience. For every band or artist that can do that there are many more that can’t. They may be able to do so given time and opportunity. 

I hope you can see the dilemma both for a venue owner and a musician starting out.

One thing I would note is when I was a teenager nobody I know formed a band with the aim of making money. They did it for kicks and hopefully to get the girls/boys.

In time a few got pretty good and learned their craft enough to make a living. Playing their instrument well was only a small part of that learning curve.

(drawing) rings around the world - super furry animals 

enjoy  the silence - depeche mode

1 hour ago, Tim2291 said:

Sadly a lot of the people hiring musicians are opportunistic snakes that want to exploit them for their own gain! It drives me insane when I see local bands accepting unpaid gigs, this takes the income away from those who rely on it!

There have been a few discussions of this nature on BC sometimes a little heated. I only played live a couple of times in my teens and each time was for free. The fact was myself and the band I was in were not good enough to get paid. A few local pubs used to let bands play mid week. The best of the bunch got to play Saturday nights and got paid. Nothing massive but they had a good crowd.

Several individuals from the best local bands went on to make a living playing music. Some were part time covers/function band/teaching/other sidelines. A couple even made some reasonable cash as solo artists and still earn good money solely from music a couple of decades down the road.

We are talking a handful out of scores of people over several years that went on to make a living purely doing what they loved meaning full time with no other job to make ends meet.

If I were to play live again, which would be nice I doubt if I would get paid beyond beer and petrol money.

If I were to go to a Bristol venue like the Thekla or Fleece it would be to see bands I have bought tickets for as I seek them out when they play locally. 

I wouldn’t pay to see local bands I have never heard of. I have in the past, usually because a mate was in one of the bands on the bill. It was generally pretty cheap and rarely anything I would repeat. That’s the dilemma really.

Are the venues opportunist snake exploiters or just caught in the same catch 22?

Just now, dmccombe7 said:

In response i hit the wrong emoji......👍

I do that when I put the wrong glasses on  🧐

Speaking of ladies, outfits and basses - Laura Lee (Khruangbin) excellent. Outfits and bass playing.

13 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

How did we get from "it isn't a real job" to UK and Global economic policies. ? 

You have a nap in the conservatory and this is what happens. Retirement is a bummer. 

Dave

By route of average wage vs house prices and the difficulties faced by musicians I believe. One of the drawbacks of living in a country that has a core belief that house price inflation is sacrosanct and should be celebrated and promoted at all costs is that eventually wages can’t keep up with house prices.

I grew up on an estate built for railway workers and their families. It was largely council, then became largely privately owned. Fast forward to 2022 and you would need a combined house-hold income of around £80K a year to live in an ex-council house. 

I doubt if there are that many railway workers or full time musicians living there now.

Edit: In response to the confused emoji I have found as areas become gentrified much of the creative elements move out as the well heeled move in. The place I grew up in was a dump but the local music scene was excellent.

moped eyes- super furry animals 

9 minutes ago, nilorius said:

Pink Floyd and Queen were all professionals, when they start getting good money.

To be fair earning good money and being a professional kind of go together. The guys I know that earn a reasonable living in music would definitely be classed as being professional and at the top of their game. Not an easy path to take. 

Patricia Morrison, purely for her bass playing ability (honest)

the beat(en) generation - the the 

10 minutes ago, Nicko said:

Crispin Mills is the epitome of middle class, and someone thought Kula Shaker were worth a  contract.

Pink Floyd, Queen?

I know a few middle class musicians making decent money. One thing I would say is they are phenomenal. By contrast I know lots of fairly average middle class people and some outright incompetent ones making far better money in other industries.

1 minute ago, Grimalkin said:

 

Bit of a "Look! A Squirrel!" post.

I think I will call it a day with any further discussion as you are a bit all over the place with sources, references, time lines etc

2 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

"lo fei gibetto a me de le mie case."

 

“I made my own house be my gallows.”

Dante Alighieri - Dante's Inferno.

I think a little consistency in thoughts and process would be advisable. You clearly have something to contribute but are a bit vague and sporadic in your presentation of ideas.

16 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

 

The BOE are bailing out industries to the tune of many millions, while telling workers not to ask for a pay rise...

apples and oranges

they are trying to control inflation without having to rapidly raise interest rates which would crush the indebted / hence plea for wage restraint.

At the same time they are trying to stop contagion in many businesses as the cost of servicing debt is spiralling (due to gilt yields rising … arguably due to interest rates being so low). Hence “bailout” or more accurately lifeline.

Monbiot’s writing dates back to Covid though not the BOE’s actions now.

I actually agree with him. The zombies should have been put to rest.

The article you have linked doesn’t address the situation we find ourselves in 2 years later though. Now pension funds (amongst others) are effectively being “bailed out” but workers told to be prudent.

That’s what I have addressed with my response above.

12 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

Neoliberalism isn't a conspiracy, it is an ideology:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#:~:text=Neoliberalism is contemporarily used to,state influence in the economy.

 

"The Bank of England has decided to buy debt from oil companies such as BP, Shell and Total. The government has given easyJet a £600m loan, even though, just a few weeks ago, the company frittered away £171m in dividends: profit is privatised, risk is socialised. In the US, the first bailout includes $25 billion for airlines. The government is sucking as much oil as possible into strategic petroleum reserves and sweeping away pollution laws, while freezing out renewable energy. Several European countries are seeking to rescue their airlines and car manufacturers..."

 

https://www.monbiot.com/2020/05/01/bail-out-the-planet/

 

It's exactly what the present government are pathologically persuing...

I know what neoliberalism is. I would also argue that socialising banking failure was a distortion of free market capitalism as was much of the Covid response but that’s a digression. Not sure what the leap to Monbiot and bailing out carbon intensive industries has to do with the previous quote about the BOE, inflation and wages though?

2 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

"The governor of the Bank of England has come under fire from unions and earned a rebuke from 10 Downing Street for suggesting workers should not ask for big pay rises to help control inflation.

 

Andrew Bailey said he wanted to see “quite clear restraint” in the annual wage-bargaining process between staff and their employers to help prevent an upward spiral taking hold.

 

However, his comments drew a furious response from union leaders, as households face the worst hit to their living standards in three decades as soaring energy prices cause inflation to outstrip wage growth."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/feb/04/cost-of-living-crisis-bank-of-england-pay-restraint-ofgem-energy-bills-us-jobs-business-live

 

The bank of England are part of it. They're not going to mention neoliberalism are they.

The problem with trying to put everything and everyone into a nice neat box is that it never quite fits.

The BOE are part of what exactly, a global neoliberal conspiracy?

 I see a long list of policy failures and fcuk ups, incompetence, complacency and short term thinking.

It’s not a conspiracy just bad economics and poor planning.

The result is an economy that can only function with sub 2% interest rates and low gilt yields.

Bailey knew that rates hitting elevated levels would bring havoc which is why he has avoided raising them to the required level to stave of inflation and has tried to talk down any further inflationary factors and calm the markets.

Wage inflation being a significant inflationary factor that investors in fixed income investments in particular look at. In other words the people that buy government debt and allow an economy to function.

Investors have now lost faith in UK PLC’s economic prudence for a multitude of reasons, inflation is running riot and gilt yields are hitting new levels.

Interest rates will have to rise and there will be all manner of unintended consequences, from margin calls whether from LDI issues as per the current pensions issues or Credit Default Swaps in investment banks. 

It may get messy but it’s not a conspiracy.
 

Carol Kaye, Kim Deal and Ida Nielsen definitely get my vote.

2 minutes ago, neepheid said:

We have a house.  We've had a few wobbles along the way trying to keep it (bass fire sales, debt restructuring etc.) so frankly I don't care how easy/difficult it is/was for other people.

I’m always concerned about how difficult it is for people. Having secure shelter is a fundamental requirement. It shouldn’t be a luxury or a casino.

The former governor of the bank of England, Mervyn King  once said “house prices are a matter of opinion, debt is real”.

The debt is dependent upon affordability which is dependant upon interest rates.

House prices are no longer tied to (sensible) salary (multiples) as the criteria for purchase IMO but are totally dependent upon access to cheap credit. Remove this from the equation and what houses are really “worth” will be revealed.

My personal opinion is that two decades of ultra cheap credit has distorted the economy entirely, shifted asset ownership into the hands of people who can afford the risk of loading up on cheap credit and made the risks far higher for those on the first rungs of the ladder. This disproportionately affects the young.

MM Bongo??