tks.se

You can have loudspeker drivers of the same size with different appications. Take two different 8s: One can be a home theathre subwoofer, the other one used only for mid range. Extremely different properties, but same diameter. Some applications makes more sense then others. What you can say about different speaker sizes is that the dispersion is better the smaller the driver gets. If we only look at bass response, there is no problem in getting low frequencies from smaller drivers, as long as you have enough available surface area/cone travel for the intended application. Say headphones - no one walks around with 15" headphones "just to get proper bass". Home theathre subwoofers is another example. They often use smaller drivers than our bass cabinets, but they still extend to lower frequencies. The difference is in how loud they go (again - available surface area/cone travel).

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1426690470' post='2720846'] I wanna know the answers [i][b]NOW[/b][/i]!!!! [/quote] Ok, let's do this today. First off, let's look how the bass players in Sweden voted after the test: Cabinet A : Ecxept for two people who thought it was a 12, everyone thought it was a 10. So 93% 10", 7% 12". Cabinet B: Two people voted 12", the rest 15". 93% 15", 7% 10". Cabinet C: Two votes for 15", tvo votes for 10", the rest voted 12": 85% 12", 7.5% 10", 7.5% 15". Most people thought it was 10-15-12. Same goes for the votes here, right now almost 70% have voted for that exact combination, counting other votes towards the same speaker sizes: 69% thought A = 10" 83% thought B = 15" 73% thought C = 12" So, the Swedes were a little bit more decided on the 10-15-12 option. Here are the results: This shocked many of the Swedes. Even though everything (including removing the fronts from the cabinets) was done in plain sight, a few was of the opinion that the cabinets must have been switched. Magnus who did the playing was extra shocked. He was so certain that cabinet A was a 10"-cabinet, becase he thought it was way too bright (he didn't look to happy while slapping with that cabinet connected). Two people here on Basschat laid down correct votes. Zero of the swedes got it right. All of this was the main reason for the test. As WoT so elegantly put it: [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1426859466' post='2722817'] ..which is the purpose of this thread, really. It's challenging the preconceptions that many of us have. [/quote] Exactly. This test was specifically designed for everyone who thinks that a 15" always has a certain tone, or saying "going from a 1x15 to a 4x10 cabinet is a great way to get a punchier tone with more mids". It all depends on the cabinet/drivers in each specific case. If you didn't know it before, you know it now, speaker size doesn't say what kind of tone you get. If you think that many say 4x10 cabinets sound alike, thats more the result of the designers trying to achieve similar results with the cabinets/drivers they are using, not something that's "built in" to the size of the speaker cone. [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1426755354' post='2721494'] But the absolutely enormous elephant in the room for me is that you haven't said how the hell the cabs were mic'ed up, and that can have the most enormous effect on the sound that we are now hearing[/quote] The microphone position was the same, but of course it's hard to get a completely fair test. The dispersion is different for each cabinet, and while we did the test "live", people sitting far to the side of course didn't hear the exact thing as the ones sitting straight ahead, but in this case, the differences between the cabinets were big enough to get through any way. A large majority though the cabinet with the deepest lows and the least highs must have been the 15" while the cabinet extending the furthest into the highs must be the 10s. [quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1426751690' post='2721457'] I've no idea, as I believe drivers don't have a specific sound based on diameter. [/quote] Exactly! Maybe a "I don't know" would have been a good addition. [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1426780272' post='2721882'] If one wanted to one could measure the same cab with the mic in three positions, get three different results, then pose the same poll question and see how many saw through the ruse. [/quote] This was a bit of a ruse from the start. The main bit was done with audience, this thread was just an attempt to get the people who couldn't attend to get a glimpse of what we did, so the recording thing wouldn't have been as well received live, probably works better online. Another idea for the live part was to have say three different 12" cabinets made to have very different frequency responses, and let people guess freely between 10/12/15, and most would probably guessed one of each (15="deep", 10="bright" 12="in between"), but that would just have been mean

There are no cabinets with crossovers/mid range drivers (like the 1126). All cabinets have been made to be a good match for the drivers used in the test (they're all vented, different tuning frequencies, no random drivers thrown into a spare cabinet). More comments to your posts has to wait until after the results are posted. It's hard commenting further without giving too much away. What do you say, is one week about right, or should we wrap this up sooner?

We had a small "bass bash" over in Sweden last year, with 30 or so local bass players attending. As an activity we arranged a blind test. I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but here in Sweden most bass players are quite certain that a certain speaker size results in a certain tone. Stating the opposite is often met with disbelief: "Sure, the tone might differ a bit in some cases, but when you hear a 4x10 you instantly recognize the punch" and similar comments. So, what better way to test it than a blind test? Three cabinets were prepared: one 2x10, one 1x12 and one 1x15. All the same size and with grille cloth hiding the loudspeaker drivers. The only thing setting them apart on the outside was "A" / "B" / "C" marking and slightly different look, so no one could switch the letter stickers and mess with the results. The initial plan was to have a fourth, and maybe a fifth cabinet, and not telling how many of each speaker size were used, which would have made for a more challenging listening test, but to keep things simple we kept to one of each. All speakers used were speakers that can be found in commercially available bass cabinets. No filters were used to alter the tone. During the test, one bass player (Magnus Eugenson, ME5 by the way - [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nydcz9OYibI"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Nydcz9OYibI[/url]) played the same bass line five or so times in a row through cabinet A, then we switched to B and played the same bass line again, then C. After that we started over with a different bass line, and then did it all again with a third one. All participants got to hear all three cabinets being played with a pick, fingers and also some slapping. It's also worth to mention that between every cabinet change, we reset the volume on the amplifier, and turned up the volume while Magnus played an open A string continuously, to get roughly the same volume, to compensate for any difference in sensitivity. The amplifier was hidden, so one of the participants saw the volume setting. EQ settings were the same throughout the test. Same bass as well. The active cabinet was always in the same place in the room, the inactive ones were moved away. Everyone wrote down their guess on a piece of paper, even Magnus himself, who didn't either know which cabinet contained which speaker size. The results were checked, and then the answer was revealed by removing the front/grille cloth from the cabinets. So, here's a chance to do (almost) the same test. Here are recordings of the cabinets: Cabinet A: [media]http://tks.se/temp/10_12_15_test_a.mp3[/media] Cabinet B: [media]http://tks.se/temp/10_12_15_test_b.mp3[/media] Cabinet C: [media]http://tks.se/temp/10_12_15_test_c.mp3[/media] 23 seconds in to each clip you can hear some slapping. Have a listen and vote in the poll, which cabinet do you think is 10/12/15-equipped? Please listen and vote before you do anything else (checking the poll results, reading replies/discussion below), so your opinion isn't biased. We'll have the poll open at least a week before revealing which answer is correct. Feel free to discuss after voting!

[quote name='scoobystig' timestamp='1416520653' post='2611206'] 4 weeks and counting, can't wait for the phone call summoning me back down the M4 Woohoo. [/quote] You should get that call any time now [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1417035290' post='2616531'] They really do! Spent about 10 hours with it today and it's stunning. I'll try and get some recordings up sometime soon :-) [/quote] Glad to see you are satisfied as well! [quote name='andyonbass' timestamp='1417093517' post='2617017'] I've been gigging a pair of S112s for a couple of months now, and I have to say I am extremely happy with them. They provide all the low end "thump" I need for my double bass requirements and for the occasions I used them with electric bass, have given me that great old school vibe that I've been looking for. I chose not to have tweeters and don't feel I'm missing out on anything at all sonically. Interestingly most of the comments I have received have been from guitarists, all positive and aimed at how good they look as well as how good they sound! I went for the tweed finish and cloth grill [/quote] Nice to hear, thanks for the review and feedback. There's been more interest from double bass players lately, for the S112 in particular. Just got an e-mail from a double bass player in Norway who also thought the S112 to be a very good match for both his acoustic and electric double basses.

[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1417470644' post='2620796'] These do look very nice indeed. Is there any chance of either a 4x12 or an 8 ohm 2x12? Especially like the idea of the mid driver and tweeter. Possibly similar to the EAD 2x12 I played at last years South East bash which was really, really good. [/quote] Glad to hear you like them, but sorry, no plans on either. Is the EAD equipped with a 6"? Trying to recall seeing a picture of something like that. That kind of design (if executed in a good way) has a lot of benefits, and can be found in the S2126 and 2126, which might see quite similar if you only look at the speaker sizes, but do things a bit differently. The S2126 being louder and the 2126 extending further down in the low frequencies as well as having more top end and slightly better mid range dispersion, also being able to handle more power.

They should be in the UK now Don't know if Barrie has sent you this picture already, a better one of just the red 1126 cabinets:

Sorry for no activity on Basschat for a while, some Basschat time scheduled on Friday to catch up

The 1126 goes lower than the S112, but needs more power to be equally loud. When they are equally loud, the deeper low end of the 1126 is much more apparent than when comparing at the exact same volume setting on the amplifier. The 1126 will also go louder if you have enough amplifier power. With limited amplifier power, the S112 will be the louder cabinet because of the higher sensitivity ("volume per watt"), but if you have say a 1000W amplifier, the 1126 pair will keep on delivering after the S112 pair starts breaking up (which is already quite loud!) So, which one will be louder depends on the amplifier being used. The 1126 is the better choice if the goal is clean, deep lows at high volumes, especially when paired to a powerful amplifier. There's a price jump due to more expensive components in the 1126.

Good idea! You'll save on shipping by sending two of them within the UK compared to splitting them here in Sweden before sending.

Great to hear that the cabinets get so much appreciation! It's very flattering that the S112 compares very well to cabinets around twice the price. The low price isn't because it's a low quality item, just that all the work that goes in to making it is charged at a very moderate level, even though it's made in Sweden, one of the more (or most?) expensive countries in Europe. The ceramic magnet speaker helps a bit over a neodymium one as well. [quote name='molan' timestamp='1415361055' post='2599570'] I must admit I was surprised that they handled the low end volume so well given the, relatively, lower power rating compared to something like the Bergs (although it's the same as the Aguilars). [/quote] Even though the S112 is the cabinet in the product range that has the worst low end performance, it's still pretty good ;-) The power rating doesn't have a direct effect on how hard you can push a cabinet in the lows, it depends on the displacement/excursion capability. A 250W cabinet could deliver more clean lows at higher volume than a 600W cabinet, depending on the speakers and cabinet construction. Here's a quote from another reply: [i]The power rating doesn't say anything about how loud the cabinet will go (how loud/deep you can play without the speaker distorting). The power rating is an indication of how resistant the speaker is to heat failure, and to bass players, that isn't really an important issue. The average power for a bass signal is lower than for example the PA signal which contains sound of the full band, and it's mainly the average power that creates the heat the RMS rating refers to. What's much more interesting for bass players is how far the speaker cone can travel without distorting, and how much air is moved (displacement). This (combined with cabinet sensitivity and amplifier power) is what really decides how low/loud you can play. You could have two different 600W speakers, both able to take the same amount of average power without failing, but one having large displacement, and the other one a much smaller displacement. The small displacement speaker would start sounding bad when turning up the volume, while the high displacement speaker would continue to deliver at higher volumes, even though they both are rated 600W.[/i]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1414307173' post='2587974'] Yup - new-style S112 on the way to match my S212. That way, my old (and lovely) S112s get to stay as a pair with their new owner.... [/quote] Not that it matter much, but the previous version of the S112 (front ported) was just called the 112. Your upcoming cabinet is an S112, your old ones were (both) 112:s. The S in the name marks the difference between the old and new style.

Just noticed that some of the speakers where the sticker isn't the part furthest down (when being stored cone up) have some light scratches on the paint instead. As mentioned before - this is from sliding them in and out from a shelf, they have never been dropped or anything similar. Nothing that affects performance in any way, but probably good to mention.

H112 on hold. 1156 reduced!

During the years we have had some prototypes made with a few different stock speakers. These have been sitting on shelves in the workshop for some time now, perhaps someone has an upcoming project that could use some of these speakers? All speakers with the exception of one SM212 have been used between 1-3 hours, and are in excellent condition (the last SM212 is unused, only 3x SM212:s have been used, one 2x12 and one 1x12 cabinet). Some of them have a few scratches on the stickers from being slid in/out from the shelves they have been sitting on. All speakers except the unused SM212 have gaskets fitted, the unused SM212 will have gasket tape included. All prices include shipping to the UK, but they can be shipped anywhere within the EU, shipping costs might be higher to some locations. We would prefer not to split the speakers, 2x of each except for SM212 (4x) and 12MC500 (single one). 2x Faital Pro 10PR300 - [b]£190[/b] 16Ω, 300W, 4.92 mm xmax, 97 dB, 2.3 kg Note that this is the 16Ω version, it behaves differently from the 8Ω version, easier to get deeper lows with the 16Ω version. Perfect for a light 8Ω 2x10 cabinet. [url="http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/10PR300/16/10PR300_datasheet_16.pdf"]http://www.faitalpro...atasheet_16.pdf[/url] 2x Faital Pro 12PR300 - [b]£200[/b] 8Ω, 300W, 4.92 mm xmax, 99 dB, 2.5 kg [url="http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/12PR300/8/12PR300_datasheet_8.pdf"]http://www.faitalpro...datasheet_8.pdf[/url] 1x Beyma 12MC500 - [b]£90[/b] 8Ω, 500W, 8 mm xmax, 98 dB, 5.8 kg [url="http://www.beyma.com/uploads/ftp/Fichas_Tecnicas/000003392.pdf"]http://www.beyma.com...s/000003392.pdf[/url] 4x Beyma SM212 - [b]£200[/b] 8Ω, 350W, 7 mm xmax, 98 dB, 3.8 kg [url="http://www.beyma.com/uploads/ftp/Fichas_Tecnicas/000000730.PDF"]http://www.beyma.com...s/000000730.PDF[/url] This speaker is also used in the cabinet being developed in the 1x12 cabinet design diary: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary"]http://basschat.co.u...ab-design-diary[/url] Perfect if you're planning on two of these, split them with another forum member with the same build plans. 2x Eminence Kappalite 3012HO - [b]£260[/b] 8Ω, 400W, 6.2 mm xmax, 100.5 dB, 3.22 kg [url="http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappalite_3012HO.pdf"]http://www.eminence....lite_3012HO.pdf[/url]

You would need to have almost identical cabinets (exact same speaker, same cabinet construction/tuning frequency) with the only difference being the port locations to do a fair comparison. My guess is that the rear- and front ported cabinets you had weren't identical - different model/different manufacturers, is that correct? If you have a cabinet with a slightly "boomy" response, that "boominess" can become more prominent with certain placements in certain rooms, while a cabinet with a different low end response could be placed in the same spot without the same boom. The port location is easy to spot, while all the main parameters which affect the tone/capacity of a cabinet are invisible to the eye, so it's perhaps the initial reaction to link the differences experienced to the port location. The Bass Player Cooling Effect (TM?) is however harder to get with a rear ported cabinet

[quote name='bassmayhem' timestamp='1414263552' post='2587749'] My favourite variation on the theme is black cabinet, creme front frame and 50*s Fender grille cloth. I've ordered a pair of the new compact 115's in that colour, just like my 2126 cabs... [/quote] You mean something like this? If you have the time, come by Monday evening and they'll be waiting for you.

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1414691793' post='2592358'] The looks, size and weight are amazing, i'm only sorry that in the newer series the port had to be sent to the back. I like a front firing port, add that to a S112 and i may just start saving money for two of those... [/quote] The older version of the S112 (called 112, the S marked a few changes) had a front port, but moving the port had a few advantages. The main advantage is that you don't have a grille in the way of the air flow. Having a port behind the grille can cause unwanted noise, which is really simple to try our for yourself, compare how it sounds if you breathe out/blow air through some kind of mesh (even through your fingers if you don't have some kind of mesh close by) to if you remove it. As the air velocity increases, noise increases as well. The reason for the old version of the S112 not having the port on the rear side is that the paper tube port that was used wasn't as aesthetically pleasing, especially not if finishing the cabinet with vinyl. The new S112 uses a flared plastic port which looks a lot better and can be used in plain sight. Using a shelf port would also be an option, but the small S112 would either grow in height if using a front port, or get a side port which would make the S112 stand out from the rest of the product range, all using grilles all across the cabinet. Again, an aesthetic choice, a side front port would work well. If you're worried about losses in tone, there's no difference. The frequencies in which the port contributes are heard no matter what direction the port faces. Try playing through a cabinet with the speakers facing you and then turning it around, the speakers facing the wall. Do you lose mid range? Yes, it's directional. Does the low end go away when turning the cabinet around? The low frequencies doesn't radiate directionally as the mid range. If you're worried that you'll "suffocate" the port if placing the cabinet too close to a wall, that's not likely to happen. We've done measurements, and had to use angled speakon connectors to get the cabinet close enough to the wall to have the port affected by the wall. Rear ports are quite a good solution when the cabinet needs to be small.

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1414578481' post='2590813'] Just been on the phone to Bassgear and ordered myself an S112. [/quote] Work on your cabinet has already started! It will probably be sent together with a few other cabinets to Bass Gear, so when the orders for those come in will affect waiting time. You'll probably see a picture of your cabinet on the Facebook page in about two weeks or so.

[quote name='vickers89' timestamp='1414493156' post='2589721'] I realistically need 400/500w to give me headroom in the bigger venues we play. [/quote] Unfortunately, the power rating doesn't say anything about how loud the cabinet will go (how loud/deep you can play without the speaker distorting). The power rating is an indication of how resistant the speaker is to heat failure, and to bass players, that isn't really an important issue. The average power for a bass signal is lower than for say the PA which handles the sound reproduction of the full band, and it's the average power that creates the heat the RMS rating refers to. What's much more interesting for bass players is how far the speaker cone can travel without distorting, and how much air is moved (displacement). This is what really decides how low/loud you can play. You could have two different 600W speakers, both able to take the same amount of average power without failing, but one having large displacement, and the other one a much smaller displacement. The small displacement speaker would start sounding bad when turning up the volume, while the high displacement speaker would continue to deliver at higher volumes, even though they both are rated 600W. It's too bad that most manufacturers don't list displacement/excursion capabilities of their speakers. For the designer, it's a known value, so it wouldn't be an impossible thing to list with the other specifications, and could help potential customers in choosing the right gear. Don't just go by the power rating. Without knowing and being able to compare displacement values, the best way to decide on which speakers can deliver what you're looking for is to simply try them out yourself and compare. If you tried one 300W cabinet that does the job, don't expect a 500W cabinet to be able to go even louder without distorting, it could just as well be the other way around.

Thanks for the review, Matt! [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1414452777' post='2589536'] Great prices there. I`m considering one of these to add into the armoury. Do they have a particular voicing at all, or are they fairly flat/neutral? [/quote] The S212 is quite neutral, the same goes for the S112 which uses the same speaker: it doesn't have a ruler flat frequency plot, but closer to flat than many other comparable products, and with a good balance between lows and mids, no mid scoop. There's about a 3 dB increase in the high mids, compared to the lows.

The workshop will be closed next week. Open again on Monday the 27:th. E-mails and messages sent during next week (and this weekend as well) will be answered on the 27:th. Hope this doesn't cause any inconvenience!

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1413300521' post='2576891'] It is entirely possible that I may fall in love with those snakeskin babies. . . [/quote] Here's a better picture of them!

Looks like they will arrive on Wednesday next week (22nd), so next weekend would perhaps be a good time to pay Bass Gear a visit. Maybe molan could confirm when they are in, unpacked and ready for testing?

The H115 has now been sold to a Basschat member. It will be modified with at tweeter. Might we hope for a small review when it arrives?