drTStingray

Simple ... but complicated as well.

Musicman Sub Bass - made from about 2003 to 2005 ish - USA built cheaper versions of the Stingray (with 4 or 5 strings) and Sterling 4; poplar slab body (no contours for belly or forearm); limited colours; textured finish; painted neck (like the Bongo), with rosewood board; available as 2 band active EQ (or in the case of the Stingray passive also); chequerplate aluminium pickguard; 5 string is as 4 string Ray in terms of oval pickguard and body (ie not the regular SR5 body). If you see one available used v good value for money and get the 2 band Stingray sound exactly (in the case of the active versions).

Sterling By Musicman (SBMM) - more affordable versions of the Sterling 4, regular SR4 and Classic SR4 and SR5 basses in limited colour finishes and single pick up only - made in Indonesia (same factory as Laklands etc) using some parts shipped out from USA; set up and quality checked in USA; generally have cheaper hardware, but swamp ash bodies (SR) and basswood (Sterling), some with trans finish (honeyburst or natural) and every bit a more affordable version of the MIA Musicman basses. The version of the Classic SR4 has a Sterling profile neck abd 2 band EQ - the other models have the 3 band EQ.

SBMM Sub Series - Released a couple of months back - low price point (£250) version of the SBMM basses (except SR5 is the SR4 type with oval pickguard etc (whereas the regular SBMM SR5 is literally a more affordable version of the normal EBMM SR5 with coli tap, 3 band EQ, teardrop pickguard and contoured body edge) - active 2 band EQ only; limited range of finishes including walnut stain - can't remember the body wood but it's a hard wood local to Indonesia. Again, these are said to cop the MM 2 band vibe very well at a low price point, so a good back up bass or higher priced entry bass, or upgrade from a cheaper Fender copy.

Probably the best analogy in terms of quality and range is Fender Custom Shop (MIA MM) (because EBMM generally allow far more choice of colour, pick up config, neck config etc and high quality standard; after sales customer service - effectively a custom shop); somewhere between MIA and MIM Fender (SBMM) and somewhere between MIM Fender and Squire (SBMM Sub).

Price wise, they compare as MIA, MIM and Squire ranges.

I thought as a post script to this thread I would let on a little additional information.

I raised the self same thread topic on Talkbass on the same day - got 20 replies and about 200 views - 3 or so useful replies and a number questioning my religious belief and various other random strangeties - basically it bombed. At the same time, a guy raised a thread seeking views on the best colour of replacement scratchplate on a vintage white Precision - got around 1500 views and tens of replies...........almost all tort needless to say.

An interesting forum (or maybe cultural) comparison I thought.

I have spied a nice sonic blue Fender Jazz (64 I think), fairly mint, and a battered 62 fiesta red Precision - strangely the latter seems very attractive. So the GAS is beginning to swell - but alas no cash at this stage.

But there again I have started lusting after a Status (Chris Wolstenholme's fault) - I think I must be having yet another repeat mid life crisis.........................!!

Some people will disagree with you - but wait till you get that Bongo!!! The bass EQ control alone is a wonder to behold - can damage structures instantaneously!!

If you haven't tried them, EB Grp 3 flats on a Ray are wondrous. Possibly on a Jazz as well.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1349181564' post='1822827']
So far, still very happy. Part of me wants to get a matching Jazz with a glossed maple board...but that is the collectors side of me coming out.
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Gareth remember you will soon be taking delivery of your tangerine pearlescent Bongo, at which point everything in the world of bass will fit into place.................glad you're enjoying your Jazz though.

In the meantime, just boost the mid range on your amp a little to overcome the scooped sound if you feel the need - but remember the audience may not be hearing quite the sound you do on stage. I do this sometimes with my Stingray 2 band in a guitar heavy mix (well to be precise a guitar mix where they're playing in similar sonic territory as the bass - but possibly at or near their soloing volume). I find with a Stingray HH, particularly in the 2 humbucker setting, I like to boost the mid control on the bass a little and cut the bass control a little. I think it's the same issue to be honest - clearly you'd need to control it from a box or the amp if you're using a passive or 2 band EQ Jazz.

[quote name='AndyTravis' timestamp='1349043720' post='1821150']
MIM are usually 4/5/6 piece bodies, and the sunburst ones have a thin laminate of alder on the back and front to hide the joins with a thick black burst to hide the end joins.

USA basses are 2/3 piece alder.

The USA necks have rolled fingerboard edges for a played in feel and graphite rods in the neck for improved stability.

The USA basses are optional string through body, and have much nicer hardware and a hard case.

The American Special basses are a mix of the two.

The MIM's are good solid basses, workhorse type reliable basses. A good MIA bass will end up a soul mate if it works for you.

The 2008 onwards basses are very special.
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Thanks - that's useful. I guess the pick ups may be slightly different spec as well. My son has a Mexican Tele in sunburst which is very nice - bit the trans finish doesn't seem to show so many body joints as 6 to 8.

FWIW I have tried both MIM and MIA P and J basses and I agree with your description (not tried a post 2008 MIA yet though).

I am a Musicman player and would draw an analogy between the SBMM (not the Sub) and USA versions of those instruments - I dont think they are 6 or 8 piece though.

Can someone tell us, dispassionately, what is the differenece.

I know one is made in Mexico, which reduces production costs, but what other differences are there, materials wise?

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348686521' post='1816989']
ooooff this is one of the things that put me of any stingray - my current basses range from 7.8 - 9 pounds - over 10 seems very heavy - my old T40 was about 13 pounds....
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Luke not wishing to be rude but if you read the above posts, the current EBMM basses tend to be lower than 10 lbs - in fact some are super light - your idea that all Stingrays are over 10 lbs is actually wrong. Now pre Ernie Balls can be super heavy (I've heard of them up to 15 lbs). You are right that they tend to be a bit heavier than the basses you mention, however.

I'm with Dingus re the weight of basses - you'd be amazed how, if you're not in the first flush of youth, a heavy bass can give you back strain/ache. However I disagree on tone v weight - my least favourite bass, tone wise is my lightest, and my favourite is the heaviest - however I would doubt anyone blindfolded out front would be able to tell which was which from the sound (or indeed what type of bass they were unless I was playing out front (soloing) or slapping or something.

Any preference on bass colour?

What guitar(s) do you have - will you be igniting it (faithful Hendrix repro)? Just curious how close you're aiming.

Seriously I'm far too old. Anyway best of luck.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348602216' post='1815913']
9.5 pounds is my cut-off point for any bass nowadays. That's the upper limit of what I find comfortable.
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Interestingly, someone on the EBMM forum has just ordered a PDN Bongo from the Perfect Bass - weighed at 8.9 lbs (mahogony body) - seems excellent to me.

My SR4 Classic is 9lb 8oz - however it does have a slab body also, so a bit more wood to the body than the regular Ray - this seems to be the fairly common weight of current basses. However I also have a 2007 SR4HH which is under 9lbs. I have heard of Sterling 4s as low as 7lbs 9 oz.

I can understandyour point on weight of basses being important - it never used to bother me but a run of two or three gigs with a heavy bass takes its toll on the back - I do find, however, that a heavy bass with excellent balance is less of a problem - I find the worst situation is a heavy bass with poor balance.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348529374' post='1814970']
They are stunning. Now a Reflex 5 HH PDN as well. One of the best Ltd series they've made.
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WIthout a doubt - you mean this Reflex

[url="http://forums.ernieball.com/music-man-basses/54488-now-something-different-pdn-reflex-hh-5-a.html"]http://forums.ernieball.com/music-man-basses/54488-now-something-different-pdn-reflex-hh-5-a.html[/url]

[quote name='martin8708' timestamp='1348489686' post='1814191']
Burgundy Mist Slab board 62 P bass
Foam Green Slab board 62 P bass
Shell Pink Slab board 62 P bass
Surf Green Slab board 62 P bass

These seem to be the top - dollar P basses in the Vintage Guitar Price guide .
Best of luck finding your bass.
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Cheers - thanks for that. Looking at my copy of the custom colour chart circa 1961, I don't think I've ever seen a surf green Fender instrument let alone a bass. Foam green is the one I'm more familiar with (as per Willie Weeks' Precision on the Donny Hathaway live album).

No offers from anyone on the Musicman question then..............I have noticed certain limited editions are commanding higher prices than standard used instruments already. I can see no reason why the late 80s/early 90s basses won't start to increase in value as they get older as there appears to be a decent market in used basses and they have a substantial following generally as basses - perhaps third behind Precision and Jazzes. Time will tell I guess - but I do recall a few years back early 80s pre EB Rays were relatively cheap - they have now almost caught up with their seventies counterparts.

I know the feeling

Just think, Gareth - you could have one of those shipped as well

Have you seen the pic of the Bongo 5 PDN and the natural finish Sterling Classic on the MM forum............some seriously nice basses being produced..........and bought (unfortunately not by me ). And I have vintage Fender gas on top of all that!

Well not quite................

No one has answered my question on which is (obviously opinion but nevertheless valued), which is the most sought after custom colour. FWIW my favourites are fiesta red, sonic blue and surf green.

And secondly...........


[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348440165' post='1813758']
- how about 80s and onwards Musicman basses - clearly improvements over their predecessors, with similar reputation for sound, but great reputation for quality, fit and finish. These are the basses I use through choice and probably will retain all the ones I have, and hopefully will be with me or in my family when they are well over 30 yrs old. Late 80s/early 90s Musicmans often have stunning figured maple necks also.
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Any vintage fans/experts willing to give a view.

Many thanks for everyone's help.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348408032' post='1813214']
As I promised yesterday, here are a few of quick snaps of my Reflex:








The big problem with trying to photograph this bass is that it's all but impossible to show the beautiful deep gloss finish on the white. This video fom the ubiquitous Keko , who I'm sure you are familiar with from the EBMM forum , gives a much better impression of how this bass really looks and some indication of just how epic it sounds :

On the subject of the aforementioned Keko, I really think EBMM should give him a free bass for all the publicity and exposure he has given this bass on the internet.
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That's a stunning bass - v nice indeed.

Keko wants a Bongo.........but is holding out for a 10th Anniversary one (2013 - if they make one)

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348428138' post='1813537']
I'm seriously tempted to pick up a Bongo as well as my other Bongo order before the price rise hits and they are £1800+
[/quote]

How about a PDN 2012 Bongo via an American dealer??

Some interesting stuff in here.

You talk about 80s Fenders - how about 80s and onwards Musicman basses - clearly improvements over their predecessors, with similar reputation for sound, but great reputation for quality, fit and finish. These are the basses I use through choice and probably will retain all the ones I have, and hopefully will be with me or in my family when they are well over 30 yrs old. Late 80s/early 90s Musicmans often have stunning figured maple necks also.

Back to the original topic, I do take issue that Fenders were the best basses around in the early/mid 60s - there were others and a couple of my favourite players played EB3s to great effect. The Fender sound fits many genres very well - but not all. However, there is something beautiful and 'of the time' about these late 50s/early 60s Fenders - when you stray away from the standard sunburst and blond which are great enough, the custom colours are stunning in some cases (my own opinion).

I would love to have one of these at some stage and thank everyone contributing advice to my original questions.

As for JVs, CIJs, MIJs - I have a vague idea what you're talking about but have little or no interest in these. I'm much of the 'if I want a Fender for everyday use I'll buy a new one' school of thought. And as I've said, I have no wish to currently (though I've played quite a few owned by others or in shops). I have played a 59 P bass in red (dakota I think with a rosewood board). Three old school R and B songs - it was very nice and played beautifully. It was one of the best P bass sounds I've ever created with my own hands!! Maybe that ignited some GAS - I even got out the Fender bass book last night and looked at all those custom coloured basses shown in it. Fabulous.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348396924' post='1813044']
Was the selection of wood done on the basis of tone, availability of supply or cost per unit?
If the wood was so important (as claimed by so many sellers) what contribution did fullerplast make above and beyond what an 80's JV Squier offered?

I'd love an opportunity to separate the myth from the fact because there seems to be so much bullshit about vintage Fenders given the context they were produced in. If that happens, hopefully I'll learn something in the process.
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+1 - the situation with wood choice is very interesting - and particularly the change from ash to alder in the 50s - from what I've read, this could have been based on production efficiency (less finish and paint prep required).

These basses are not bad - I've played a few of them in shops in the past. My son bought one as a back up to his Stingray (he's a leftie) - it's passive and does get the underlying Stingray vibe. The 5 er predated Musicman making a 5 string Stingray with the oval pickguard and I agree with you, they look very good. However there is an adage that if you want a Ray sound, you need a Ray and this is true. I think the closest you'll get is a SBMM Ray 34.

From what I've heard the Nordstrand pick up is a good replacement - you may or may not already know that Musicman do not sell major part spares - they will sell you say a pick up or neck but only on receipt of the item to be replaced (people usually do this because it's non functional or damaged in some way). This way, they are able to minimise the amount of non factory produced instruments in circulation (you could say fakes or repros).

John East also does a good pre amp. For a SR4 sound you need Alnico poles. I have a ceramic SR5 - it does the SR4 sound in parallel setting but not exactly - it's a little more aggressive I think.

However I think the Vintage is good in its own right and you can certainly use it to get the classic types of sound - save up for a used Stingray - there are always a few on Ebay and the prices make them good value.

The SBMM Sub series basses are designed, I suspect, to compete directly with the Vintage and other basses produced in this proce range - early days but they seem very good and certainly sound like a Ray.

Quality in production is very much about systems to ensure consistency of output in terms of performance and consistency of product.

From what I've heard and know, the consistency of Fender instruments is very varied so this implies in itself that quality is, or certainly has been, variable to say the least - how many times have I heard people say, you need to try a bunch before you get the right one. This does not demonstrate good quality and smacks of the sort of variability you might expect buying a new car in the 70s, say.

All that said, I have a soft spot for Fender basses and I particularly love these old custom colour basses.

I'm also mindful that these basses were designed, particularly in the case of the Precision, in order to get over the problems of amplifying a double bass which existed at the time - this was in the days of mono music reproduction and rudimentary studio recording techniques - thus the concept and design was based on those parameters, particularly from an electronic point of view. The world in terms of all of this has moved on significantly and it is amazing to me that these anachronisms could be in general use today. Sadly, in some genres their use undermines the music to my mind and 'funky ass synth bass' is far more appropriate. Yes there are people who tell me I should use a pre CBS Fender to play metal - unfortunately they are wrong!!! Far too much nostalgia, far too much 'retro vibe' fashion and far too little common sense I'm afraid.

But I do have a big soft spot for these basses. I also do for original Mini Cooper S cars - I would never subject one to day to day use - just admire for its beauty and use sparingly and with the reverence a near museum piece deserves, if only to preserve it as long as possible. Plus, there are many products which do the job better on a day to day basis IMO. I find it very difficult to have a different view and outlook on bass guitars.

Goodness - a decent thickness of paint of some of those beauties then - so much for thin paint finish contributing to tone....... There is also a story that owing to the popularity of the Shadows, the British importers had an amount of new sunburst guitars refin'd in fiesta red as they were more saleable. But don't count as a factory refin..............

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348333950' post='1812500']
Just buy another Bongo before the price rise
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Lol - well I wouldn't mind a PDN one! Vintage Fender would be a different level of purchase financially and not just yet.

I read a fascinating site about custom colour Fender instruments and quite a lot of bona fide instruments appear to have been painted over the top of sunburst (one of the standard colurs) - theory is they were imperfect paint jobs and cheaper and more cost effective to undercoat and top coat over an existing finish than to start with a bare body - plus they get a mark up for the custom colour - canny guys, eh?

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348185840' post='1810716']
My dream bass, forgive me if I don't advertise its presence! Not fender though
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And what was it (you can whisper in that small font if you want).

Another vintage Fender query - this time about 'natural relicing' - now I understand belt buckle rash, dings on the edges and wear points like the arm contour, but why is it I see vintage Fenders for sale which have heavy paintwork damage in fairly inaccessible areas - such as between the bridge and edge of the body - unless an owner has been carelessly changing strings over and over and over again, say on a daily basis, I don't get it - it sort of looks like deliberate damage to me. Any comments from experts on this??

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348327126' post='1812392']
I've got a white Musicman Reflex bass and that looks like a toilet with the lid down . Great bass, though.
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Yes the same thought occurred to me the other day when I saw a white Lakland - come to think of it ALL basses in white with white pickguards look like toilets with the seat down.

And +1 for Musicman 20 - pics please of the white Reflex.

Excellent thread - I shall be interested to see pictures of the finished bass.

And unfortunately (and noting your comments about making it clear in the build it's a repro - I'm sure there are others not so alturistic when big money is involved), it scares the hell out of me thinking about buying a pre CBS - although I also know quite a lot of the recognition points on these basses.

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1348214964' post='1810819']
Good to know. Im sure the majority are fine. I remember thinking this might be a bit liek the MIM Geddy Jazz neck. A few people have said its too thin and bows too much but on the whole they are fine.
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The neck appears to be based on the MM Sterling, SLO Special Stingray and Big Al design - there are not issues of this type with those basses and I've personally not heard of issues with these - they seem to get praised by most people.

Have you tried a Sub SBMM - half the price and sounds very Stingray to me - the walnut one looks particularly good - they appear to have a narrower neck profile also (not sure if it's the Ray 34CA profile though).

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' timestamp='1348217581' post='1810882']
You're going to need one of each of these to see sense, and you still might miss it!



[center][color=#ee82ee][size=8][b]LENS PORN[/b][/size][/color]

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Now that explains everything - Fran those new basses of yours don't have straight frets you know