drTStingray

[quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1336908586' post='1652545']
Strictly speaking it's actually 0.025" (or 0.635 mm). I don't think that was quite what he meant though when he strung it EADGC or whatever he did.

At any rate I think this mostly sounds like crap. I mean, let's be serious about this, does it make a difference? Maybe a very small amount. Does it mean you should not play a 5 string? I don't think so. If anything, I think the feel of not having that string on the bottom makes a much bigger difference to the sound than anything to do with the tension or string break off angle.
[/quote]

Yeah sorry the figures were wrong, but I think the point was clear (guage and neck position differences) and BB has clarified his post also.

I do agree with you, we absolutely shouldn't be put off from buying a 5 string based on Paul Turner's comment. I haven't read the interview so haven't a clue what the context was but as quoted here it could mean a multitude of things - only one of them being that the open E on a 5 string neck sounds different from on a 4.

The fact is Paul doesn't play a 5 very much live these days. Possibly more for recording.

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1336813282' post='1651327']
Pretty big variable there if you ask me!
[/quote]

Surely the biggest variable BB3000 had was tuning a 125 or 130 guage string to E and the same across the neck - an extra 25 mm string thickness will make a difference to the sound - ultra ultra heavy guage effectively.

In a similar way, if you play a G on the E string at 15th fret it'll sound substantially different to an open G, although the same note (well almost ).

String manufacturers make a range of guages - it's not for show they actually sound very different.

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1336822818' post='1651540']
i dont care how good he is, hes either said this under his breath sometime, or hes talking nonsense.... i hate all these minor details to a bassists tone.... its total rubbish.. its in the playing that matters
[/quote]

You are right - I agree entirely.

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1336698783' post='1649787'] Where did you find them and what sort of price? I might have to give a set a go on the L2500 [/quote] I'm not permitted to tell you where I got them from - let's say I was very lucky! I would advise you try them - I was astonished at the effect on my Bongo. [quote name='Al Heeley' timestamp='1336742660' post='1650309'] With my chemists geek hat on this afternoon, Major inductrial use of cobalt is in alloying with Iron (steel) 2 main areas of application - alnico magnets and high speed cutting steel, (eg: tool bits, saws typically containing up to 5% cobalt). Before inferring from this that Cobalt would be responsible for making strings harder wearing, the cutting steel alloy is also combined with tungsten, vanadium, chromium, molybenum and carbon in additions from 1 to 6% depending on grade. It's more likely that Tungsten and Carbon are the primary contributers to cutting steel hardness, though Cobalt will also contribute otherwise they would not bother to put it in. Cobalt is also a good magnet (wikipedia tells me so, typically used at between 5 and 24% in AlNiCo magnets) and you could possibly assume that this reinforcement of a strings magnetic properties has a beneficial effect on the treble or mids of a bass string tonal qualities. I'd be interested to know how much of the tonal characteristics of a bass string comes from the method of manufacture, core and wrapping. and how much is down to the chemical composition of the alloys used. I predict that next year, other string manufacturers will follow suit with new product launches highlinging traces of other exotic metals that are normally present in steel alloys anyway, and attributing near-magical tonal properties to their presence. D'Addario Vanadiums or Rotosouond Molybdenum may be on the shelves soon, and the latter could be cause of much mis-pronunciation mirth at a music shop near you. [/quote] The packet states that the blend of iron and cobalt attracts the magnets in your pick ups more than any other alloy available - they certainly clamped on the neodymium poles on my Bongo when I put them on!. They are patents pending.

In smoothness I'd say they feel somewhere between a flatwound and a roundwound. They aren't as rough feeling as a roundwound. The pic of the packet shows the comparative outputs claimed.
[attachment=107703:040320121678.jpg][attachment=107702:030320121673.jpg]

I have two Musicman 5s and 3 Musicman 4s and I have never noticed a difference in the effectiveness of the E strings. The one definite difference is you can't whack the E string in the way, for example, Flea does sometimes - as you're almost certain to make the B string ring as well - a technique I had to learn playing a 5 was to constantly mute the B string when not playing it to avoid it ringing - more so than with the E string on a 4. If you're playing low Es a lot it can be easier to play them at 5th fret on the B string rather than the open E but the sound is very marginally different (an analogy is the difference playing an open A from an A on the 5th fret of the E string on a 4 string bass. Marginal but it rings differently).

[attachment=107701:24042010449.jpg]

My Bongo 5HHp has had them since the beginning of March and they are still fine.

They give a mid range bump - they don't sound zingy when you first use them and they wear in nicely - sounds like a no brainer to me, and my Classic Ray 2 band is next in line for them.

There was an earlier post saying people had said they last less than 2 gigs - this is nonsense I'm afraid, unless you're looking for ultra zing, in which case you should be buying something else anyway, because these don't give that (unless you overboost the treble on the amp/bass)!

If you're buying your fretless, I'd stick with a four string - my experience is it takes a while to learn to play a fretless consistently in tune.

It also takes a while to perfect a technique with a 5 string which includes sufficient muting to stop the low B from ringing when you're playing other notes - as well as the complexities of getting the most out of the fifth string, and maybe altering some of your patterns to play lines on a 5 string.

For me, the thought of learning to play a 5 and a fretless all at once would be too much.

A Squire will be fine IMO, and you may want to upgrade later if you like it.

I've played jazz fretlesses and they're nice - I only own Musicman basses so my fretless is a Stingray H which I bought on Ebay at a good price - and it's an awesome instrument, and produces a great fretless sound - instant Pino sound, with the added bonus of being able to sound like a regular Stingray with a tweek of technique and EQ - I use it regularly in a couple of bands.

Best of luck with your purchase.

Gotcha - yeah very Beckingham Palace!

[quote name='johnDeereJack' timestamp='1336065299' post='1640454']
[size=6][b]+++ AWESOME DESCRIPTION +++[/b][/size]
[size=2]V sorry! I just read Happy Jack's +++ AWESOME +++ thread and couldn't resist [/size]
[/quote]

Ostentatious it is - Liberace, definitely - buying it I'm not.

But where do you guys get the bathroom idea from?? I know us bass players can get into the obscurest of peculiar imagery but this is a step beyond me completely - is it some special undergraduate metaphysical language - I've come across a few of these in the past - the perpetrators usually look back with acute embarrassment a few years later.

I'm new here you'll have to explain the joke - I see a lot of you play Fenders and even very expensive Fender copies - I'm guessing you all have the standard common all garden chrome taps on your historic vintage bathroom furniture?

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1335983825' post='1639169']
I was in CODA Music in Stevenage earlier - they've got [i]the[/i] most beautiful MM Ray with golden hardwear and white Tort scratchplate. Thankfully £2k isn't impulse buy money!!


[url="http://www.coda-music.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=0&products_id=10793"]http://www.coda-musi...oducts_id=10793[/url]
[/quote]

It's a special run of Classic spec Rays (about 200 IIRC) - also has a passive/acive push/pull switch which becomes a passive tone control when activated - so a third knob, but with a 2 band EQ. EBMM have done some other 2 band specials for Guitar Centre with this feature so there is hope it may become a regular option.

These basses have a painted white neck. The whole finish has a subtle gold sparkle - hence called a gilded classic Stingray. There has been a used one for sale on the MM bass forum - tragically, the guy needs to raise funds for medical reasons (that's the USA for you unfortunately).

Not sure I'm with the bathroom analogy Llaflex v1.1 - bathroom equipment is usually enamelled and comes without strings and most definitely doesn't sound as nice as a 2 band Ray played properly - just listen to Bernard Edwards if you don't believe me!

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1335781765' post='1635813']
Can anyone recommend a suitable glue to stick the fragmented marketplace back together again?
[/quote]

Well economic recovery may help sell more higher price, premium instruments. Until then, there are lots of people taking up bass (not just young people either) - who want a low priced instrument to see if they take to playing bass - usually a copy of something iconic and relatively expensive - you can see why the likes of JH is getting annoyed.

They'll probably buy the real thing in years to come, as mentioned above.

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1335724909' post='1635088']
I think it's a shame that the SUB (Sports Utility Bass) name has been used for these instruments. They may be Ok but the original SUBs were USA made instruments and not a cheap line. I prefered my SUB to my Ray[/quote]

Er, I think the original Sub bass was just over half the price of a regular Musicman Stingray, so it was a cheap version - if you chose to buy it new. It used different body wood, painted neck (to hide inferior looking maple not usable on their regular basses), a textured finish and a 2 band EQ (cheaper than the 3 band).

I know some people really like them, and they are quite sought after - they sound great but they were a budget mid range line. And new, they were costing in the same bracket as a used Stingray so many people chose the used Ray rather than buying a Sub - which is why sales weren't as good as they hoped. They are thus a bargain for what you get, on the used market.

The one thing I do agree with you on is the use of the name Sub with these new basses - the first thing I thought was it'll cause confusion - however if someone wants a 'real' sub, there are plenty of recognition points to ensure they continue to have a following - and continue to be a bargain way of getting a good, if slightly quirky version of the Ray on the used market.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1335646772' post='1634302']
So Electrically what will the diff be over a standard EBMM?
[/quote]

I don't know the answer to this, but the the Sub 5 looks to have a 2 band pre amp and no selector switch.

My guess is these are constructed from much cheaper materials - the bridge is pretty much a give away sign. Whereas the SBMM Ray 34 and 35 sound very similar to a Musicman (but have cheaper tuning pegs etc), I'm guessing these will not be quite as close - once again the Squire/MIM/MIA analogy probably best sums it up. They are entry level priced basses or thereabouts.

I guess the SBMM regular range will remain the best way to get a cheaper new Stingray - these if you want a back up or are starting out/moving up from or wanting an alternative to a Fender copy it will be interesting to see how they compare to an OLP or Vintage.

It seems pretty straightforward. Put in Fender terms, which almost everyone seems to understand, the Sub Sterling by Musicman is the Squire version, the Sterling by Musicman is the Made in Mexico Fender, and the Musicman is the Made in America Fender.

Understandable they don't want to put the Musicman name on the entry level bass. I think it's intended to be like the OLP was, or the Vintage Stingray copy. Although some manufacturers do put their name on instruments from low price up to high price, many don't such as Warwick, Ibanez, Fender, Gibson etc etc - Musicman are simply following the generally accepted marketing process.

The fact Musicman have re-entered the entry level bass market is more of a surprise to me than anything else.

BTW the root beer coloured one is trans walnut I believe. I think they've probably chosen the colour/neck combos very carefully - supposedly more Stingrays in black/maple are sold than any other combo by a large margin, hence its inclusion.

I think a lot of people are going for the very lightweight stuff - I bought an LM3 yesterday - still not sure on the cab - maybe Markbass 2x10 HF or Barefaced Compact.

But one things for sure - I'm keeping my ABM 500 Evo2 stack - it sounds too good to sell and I'll certainly still use it for bigger gigs and the head and one cab for recording and even at home. My back tells me the lightweight stuff will help it for smaller venues and it does sound very good - but then I'm quite old!

Best of luck with your sale.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1335343368' post='1629418']
adding a switch for parallel/series tempts me
[/quote]

Yes agreed - that would be a good mod - the SR5H in series absolutely kills in a recorded mix - mind you the other two settings are pretty damn good also (parallel and single coil). I think the original Sabre also had a series parallel switch.

I'm really not doubting you guys, just stating what the manufacturer says - I'm not sure about the spec of the Sub Sterling (I think I've only ever seen one of them) but it may possibly have been two band (they do a Sterling Classic now which is a two band also). Bear in mind also there was a Stingray Sub in shock/horror passive. You should email Gav at musicman.org - I think he'd be interested in your find.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1335024590' post='1624926']
I posted some pictures on a thread a while ago, and Ou7shined has seen various pickups too.
The SUB (4 strings) appears to be wired in series, as far as we can tell with the small sample observed, where 100% of them being series, original.
My SUB5 also has the original pickup... but this one is wired in parallel, and I posted pictures illustrating it
[/quote]

Just to close this out, I got an email from Musicman Customer Services and they confirm the MM spec for pick ups in SR4 basses, original series Sub SR4 and Sub SR5 is/was wiring in parallel. Not sure how the Subs you mentioned got series wiring - perhaps a mistake or perhaps got Sterling pick ups as there was a Sub Sterling (but much rarer)?

The standard SR5H does have series/parallel wiring (and notably in series setting does not produce the 'signature' Stingray sound - you have to select parallel for that - the series sound is fatter with more mids and cuts through a mix even better!).

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1334992214' post='1624385']I believe the body is different (Basswood IIRC, I may be full of poo) and the obvious series wiring, which personally for me, is better for playing with a pick as when played with fingers it's sounds a little muddy (through some amps, a nice clean flat response amp will sound better)
[/quote]

Body is poplar - basswood is on the Sterling by Musicman SB 14 (based on the Sterling bass) and the Bongo.

I'm not doubting what you guys have seen in your basses, but I'm not sure about these series/ parallel pick ups - are the originals in the basses or maybe swapped out by previous owner? Sterlings/SR5s have pick ups in series (coupled with selector switch to allow series/parallel switching and single coil selection - not sure what the Sterling sub had or the Sterling Classic has as they are both 2 band pre amp AFAIK).

It doesn't quite totally sense that the Sub would have a differently (hotter) wired pick up than a regular Stingray - and then sold at a much cheaper price. Perhaps a question for MM Customer Services. .

For the Walloper, have a listen to this Ed Friedland demo of the Classic Stingray currently available from EBMM. A regular 2 band Ray will sound very similar, though IMO has slightly less sustain (which the strings through body bridge on the Classic give). It gives a good idea what can be done with the bass and a little skill.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlMStrT5A6M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlMStrT5A6M[/url]

On this, I can hear no apparent imbalance of the G to other strings, no metallic noises, and there are vast variations in sound etc etc - it has a lacquered neck for those who don't like the standard oil and wax finish - three of mine have the oli and wax finish and I don't have a problem switching between these and the lacquered ones - I haven't needed to adjust the truss rod on any except my fretless (which I keep with a very low action. For anyone who wants to compare the differences, Ed does reviews of the Sterling, Big Al, 25th Anniversary (now updated to the Reflex) and the Bongo - these give a far better idea of what these basses (and loads of other makes for that matter) really sound like.

A few other points on Stingrays - as with other basses, the body wood affects the sound and there are variations:- the Sub has a poplar body which gives a little mellower sound than an ash bodied Ray (all recent production of Rays is ash) - it's also either 2 band or passive; poplar is also used on some solid colour Rays and SR5s from the early to late 90s; alder is used on most trans red from introduction in the early 80s right through, plus some other colours from the early 80s - these are said to give an even mellower sound. The 2006, 30th Anni Ray has a mahogony body (said by many to be the best of all). This is just intended to give a pointer for those interested.

Then you get the rosewood board v maple board debate etc etc etc! Maple and ash gives, IMO, the classic Stingray signature sound.

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1334785557' post='1621404']However once I pushed the pole pieces for the A and D strings down to the same level as the E and G strings I got great string to string response and the Ray now works well through every amp I try. I've noticed a similar problem on a few other Rays I've used but mine was the worst... but now it's the best!
[/quote]


Interesting - glad you fixed it.

Strangely the two pick up Rays don't have the raised pole pieces for A and D (I've read somewhere the Ray was originally designed with the raised A and D pole pieces in one pick up form to follow the curvature of the fretboard). I will check the comparative outputs sometime. I just haven't picked the problem up.


[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1334825293' post='1621757']
Woh! I've never seen anything like it. Please put some sound clips of it up.




Dan
[/quote]

+ 1

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1334756333' post='1620733']
Must admit my Stingray is the bass I play least at the moment, I enjoy it when I do play it though.

Mine had the fairly typical pickup string balance problem that made it unplayable in my opinion, but thanks to Basschat I found a free fix for it and now it's all good. I do find mine is very sensitive to moisture / seasonal changes and needs it's trussrod adjusting a few times a year which is a little annoying although not difficult.

My go to basses at the moment are a couple of battered 70s Jazz basses, plus a Japanese '62 reissue which is the best by miles.
[/quote]

Wow Rich your Stingray sounds very high maintenance - you must be very unlucky - I'm surprised your old Fenders don't have the same neck problems as they're a similar design. Perhaps you don't have the Fender actions so low. I've never had to tweak a truss rod - I've chosen to and to lower action once or twice, especially on my fretless, and then with very low action you can get buzz if the weather changes from v warm to v cold - as you say, dead easy to fix by a quick turn of the truss rod wheel - but it's hardly a fault of an instrument if I set my action as low as it'll go - more a strength that you can do this, and maintain it so easily because the manufacturer's enhanced the design over the years.

I've never come across a pick up/string balance problem on a Ray - I think it is possibly one of those internet myths - plug one in and record it directly and see if you get a problem - I've never had one. As long as it's set to manufacturer tolerance (which is dead easy to do) it should be OK - however the Ray, especially in 2 band form, gets a natural mid scoop - if you apply the smiley face principle and EQ a lot of the mid out on a amp (or on the EQ on the bass if it's a 3 band, or over boost the bass pot - or over boost the bass on the the amp) you may well start to perceive the G string is quieter when stood in front of the amp. This is not the fault of the instrument...........

I think the Ray is a plug in and go instrument - rock solid and gives a good range of sound for any player of any ability - what more can you want?

[quote name='vax2002' timestamp='1334692688' post='1619950']
The brand has had a good revival, but it is over now, even JH knows this hence why he is on the offensive again, looking for people to blame for the downturn.[/quote]

Possibly the global economy is to blame? They aren't unique in the guitar selling world to see a downturn in sales - it usually happens in recessions.

I saw a guy the other day playing what I thought was a Ric (sounded and looked like it) but on closer inspection it had Hackenbacker or something similar on the headstock - it made me think if Brains (Hiram Hackenbacker) out of Thunderbirds played a bass it would definitely be something very quirky..........like a Ric perhaps ? I guess this is the sort of thing John Hall's upset about - I don't blame him really - it does devalue a design icon - but pratically I can't help thinking the people who do buy the copies would never have splashed out on a Ric anyway - and if they wanted one and could afford it, surely they would buy the real thing - so I don't really understand where he's coming from - does it really affect their sales? Chasing individuals selling 2nd hand ones smacks of clutching at straws and wiping out potential future customers at a stroke - all very strange!

I have several Stingrays and they're great - 4 string 2 band, 4 string HH; 5 string with ceramic; 4 string 3 band fretless........oh and a Bongo as well - it doesn't come out that often but it's great fun - and has a piezo so adds another dimension to those huge sounding neo loaded pick ups. They all have a great recorded and live sound. The Stingray is an instrument that can go from warm and lush to gritty and aggressive at the tweak of the tone controls and by minor changes in playing style - try bending and plucking a note on a low fret - it really is the fattest sound you could ever imagine.

I love P basses and J basses but have never owned one - I've spent hours in shops A/B ing MIM, MIA, MIA anniversary, MIJ, borrowing 59 P bass, 79 P bass, trying early 80s active ones (in the early 80s - didn't like that v much at all) but each time have never felt the marginal differences in sound I could perceive warranted the vast array of prices - I bought a Ray back in 1980 when I originally had my heart set on a natural P bass - and I've really been hooked ever since. (By the way can you believe few people wanted a Fender back in 1980 - totally out of fashion at the time!)

[quote name='dr Szelma' timestamp='1333830930' post='1607203']
... when I hear "Music Man Bongo" I'm thinking "toilet seat"... well, that's all about the way they sound and look for me...
[/quote]

Oh dear, oh dear - this humour is really as tired and outdated as Tarby and Brucie. Oh well!

I'm guessing you've never played one. I should have said Bongos are not the bass for people who's idea of instrument design got stuck in a groove in 1951, 1957 or 1960, worthy as those basses are. If car purchasers were in the same mind set as some instrument buyers the roads would be full of Model T Fords.

I have a Bongo 5HHp which I bought secondhand for just over £900. It's the most versatile bass I've ever played - so many tone possibilities. I'm a Musicman fan, but really have only ever focussed on the Stingray - however the opportunity to get the Bongo cropped up so I did - and I have found it quite a revelation.

As with all Musicman basses, it a very well constructed and highly playable instrument - the Bongo has a four band EQ which is extremely powerful if you want it to be (though I tend to use mine set flat). The low mid control is especially good.

I've recorded in guitar saturated settings and the Bongo sits beautifully in the mix. I also play in jam sessions where the guitar amps tend to be over powerful and the bass amps underpowerd or just plain crap - and even in those the Bongo cuts through well and sounds good - put it through a decent amp and it's killer.

I bought a Classic Ray new for the sort of price you're talking about and couldn't be more pleased. WIth the Bongo you're getting an upper end instrument of a well respected manufacturer's range, with a lot of features and vast flexibility (more so than the afore-mentioned Ray). So I would say there's a lot more to it than a name. I can think of another well known manfacturer who does single pick up, one or two sound basses with an artist name on that are half as much as this again, or more - so I don't think the HH Bongo is over priced in relation to the market.

If this sort of thing appeals to you, bear in mind non-musicians tend not to have pre-conceptions with instruments (and certainly don't associate instruments with sanitary ware) - I have had a number of people come and speak to me about the Bongo as they are wowed by the shape, look and also sound, and people think it's a boutique manufacturer instrument - mine is bright orange so that might help it stand out - it seems to appeal especially to women!!!

I'd recommend you go and try one - it is quite different from a Stingray, in sound and feel, but still has that Musicman DNA to it.

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' timestamp='1332959979' post='1595607']Also... the 24 frets scale on a Bongo (at least on all the 3 different ones I have tried) is a bit f'd up, no matter how accurately you adjust the intonation, saddles, etc any note pressed down past the 12th fret are way off tune, and I have tried it with the best tuners around, Peterson strobo, Korg pitchblack and tc polytune I reckon EBMM haven't done their math right when they placed the frets, or god knows why, it's just very difficult to get a true note from fret 14th onward.[/quote]

Hi Fran, how you doing - your post got me very worried about my Bongo 5HHp - I've just been and checked it - I'm happy to say mine is fine other than it's a tad adrift at fret 24 on the E but I think I can live with that, and won't be bothering to adjust it

I have to say that the Bongo is a great bass - very wide range of tone options and sits beautifully in any mix, both recorded and live - I think it has an underlying fundamental tone that's reminiscent of a P Bass, but with a multitude of sound variation available. It's great to play and even though mine is a tad on the heavy side for a Bongo, its weight is so well balanced it doesn't cause me back ache after a set, and the shape is so ergonomic that it's a joy to play. The only down side for me is slapping can be a bit awkward initially owing to the neck humbucker position. I've had mine for a couple of years now and won't be selling it!!