thebrig

If we put it all into context, we are all outdoing each other!

Band A plays for free
Band B says they wont play for free, but will play for £50
Band C wants £100
Band D wants £200
and so on.........

Now think about it, some of you are suggesting that the bands playing for free, or for peanuts are not doing you any favours by devaluing the going rate, but surely even you go in and negotiate a price, let's say, you ask for £900 and there might be another band after the same gig as you, have already asked for a £1000, chances are, you will get the gig, go away and think you are keeping the going rate as it should be.

What I am trying to say is, most bands negotiate regardless of how good they are, so therefore will be undercutting the band who charges a bit more, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

If you are a band that has a fixed fee and you stick by it, and I mean, lets say, you charge £1000 per gig, and when offered £950 you walk away, then great, I admire you for it, but on the other hand, if you say, oh all right then, it's only £50 less, what does it matter, then that's a different story, because if other bands are charging £1000 as well, then you are undercutting them and starting a downward spiral of the going rate.

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1349945505' post='1832459']
i think he was referring to someone on youtube rather than you here on bass chat the top comment on the video is someone who says this

Oh my God. A dilettante. Ever heard of the phrase "playing in time", Mr. Deacon? And he made millions with this crap. Now I know why I never liked to listen to Queen excessively, although the compositions are magnificent, incredible, ingenious. But with this rhythm section? "Don't move dont't groove", is this Deacon's and Taylor's motto? Taylor is constantly beside the beat just as well. And they, seriously, put this on a record?


[color=#333333][font=arial, sans-serif][size=3]f***ing sh*t.
I would have kicked them out of the studio.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=arial, sans-serif][size=2][url="http://www.youtube.com/user/MegaBradley01"]MegaBradley01[/url] [/size][/font][/color]


[color=#333333][font=arial, sans-serif][size=2][size=4]hence the tag of "grade a helmet"[/size][/size][/font][/color]

[/quote]
Ah! I thought that as my comment was the the first, and therefore at the top, I assumed that he was referring to me.
And I suppose it could sound like I am saying, "[i]if that's the best he can do, then maybe I ain't so bad after all[/i]", although obviously, I wasn't.

[quote name='Jack Cahalane' timestamp='1349914825' post='1832320']
Sounds alright to me!
Whoever wrote that top comment on YouTube though is a grade A helmet.
[/quote]
I assume you are referring to me!
Well it was a "tongue-in- cheek" comment about [u]MY[/u] ability, and not meant as a criticism of [u]HIS[/u] playing!

I play in a covers band, and our gigs are mainly in small venues and pubs, and I have only ever been in a studio once, and that was to record a three-song demo CD
When I heard my playing isolated afterwards, I was a bit disappointed, but hearing great players isolated too, helps you to realise that maybe that is what it is meant to sound like, and after the final mix, I was happy, as I cut through nicely, and my playing actually sounded smooth and warm.

Just an observation, lately, I've noticed that quite a few BC'ers are resorting to insulting comments, when they disagree with other people's views, disagree by all means, but things like "grade A helmet" and worse, are totally unnecessary, and not really what the BassChat community is all about.

You see! I disagree with you, but I don't need to insult you.

If that's John Deacon, then I ain't so bad after all!

+3

Must have been great playing Norman's bassline on 'Rhythm Stick'!

Or did you do your own take on it?

Why are you on Basschat starting new topics?

[i][b]Shouldn't you be practising?[/b][/i]

[quote name='Steve G' timestamp='1349799541' post='1830709']
I'm gonna stick my oar in here. I'm newish to bass playing and would love to be at the point of being in a band and being able to play to an audience, the covers that many berate would be fab for starters. But how do you do that? How do you get a following if you can't play live? If you've not got a following how'd you get a gig, whether you are 'just another' covers band, probabbly harder as an originals band?

All rhetorical questions really, I'm not asking for answers; but I can see why a new outfit would be willing to play for free or very little. Afterall you put the hours in to practice/rehearse but if you have no outlet for it what's the point. I see that as time progresses you would want and will be able to charge and this would increase with popularity. Maybe there are just too many bands at the start of this curve and the atrition rate is pretty bad so there is always a new band to fill the 'freeplay' spot?
[/quote]
Exactly what I have been trying to say!

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1349793820' post='1830618']
Definitely sympathy.... but I can see how it might be interpreted as sarcasm!
[/quote]
Thanks mate, although I'm not after any sympathy, I was just trying emphasise, that my point of view is not based on the fact that I can afford play for free, because I definitely can't.
But hey! that's what's so great about this forum, so many different viewpoints, and most of them all valid in some way or another.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1349790115' post='1830546']
sh*t man!!! You are an example to us all!

And here we are arguing about whether or not we should get paid!!
[/quote]
I'm not sure how to take that, sympathy or sarcasm?

I'm only kidding, I can laugh at myself!

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349788552' post='1830519']
One thing you might want to try. Have a look at who is playing at the "prestigious" venues and see if you can get a support slot with them. Of course, this is a time when you WILL have to play for free.

Offer to play a 30 to 40 minute set before the start of the set. Make sure all of your best stuff is in there - and make sure you put [i]everything[/i] into that performance.

You'll find the landlord will be more keen to book you then - as you will have his ear.

Lots of bands like to do that (some don't) .... as they get the kudos of playing top of the bill with a support act. The landlord is getting more for his money ...... and you're not doing anyone out of a paid gig.

You'll find those a hoot - as there will be a bigger crowd and there is less set up time as you generally won't have to set up the PA and lights etc.

Just make sure you don't act like prima donnas (as did one act who supported us until we put them straight) and make sure that you are willing to help with the set up and tear down if asked ..... and make sure you stay to the end and don't get lost after your own performance.
[/quote]
Great advice and much appreciated.

To be quite honest, most of the free gigs that we have done, have really only been 'one set' jobs anyway, and mainly to see if we are up to it, which we now know we are, as we get great receptions from the crowd, but we do know our level, and would never think that we were better than we actually are.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349787800' post='1830507']
Good point. I do agree that smaller venues can be a good starting point for new bands. However, there is, to me, a problem with this playing for free thing - which is a broader topic than ..... "it's up to them if they want to play for free or not".

I play in a three piece covers band doing sort of up-tempo pop/dance stuff ..... generally well-received everywhere we go. Here's the issue. There are three of us. I'm a financially comfortable old git for whom £50 to £100 won't make any difference. Our guitarist, a late thirties software developer, has had to take a pay cut through lack of software work and has to support his wife and three kids. He relies on the £50 to £100 he gets twice or three times a month to make ends meet. He's very talented and a great frontman so is worth that £50 to £100. Our (newly recruited) drummer is a pro musician. By that, I don't mean Phil Collins, I mean a bloke who teaches drumming, plays in sessions for a couple of recording studios, does corporate workshops - does drum tuition at schools. He says with cutbacks all over the place, things are getting tighter. His gig money is an essential part of his earnings.

We have definitely noticed that there are less venues putting bands on - as they the pubs can't make ends meet. I understand the landlords' problems - which I guess are mainly economy based. And, a lot of the well-known music venues are cutting their fees as things are tight.

So, it is really not helpful when bands tout themselves around for free - just because they have fun playing. This has a few effects: 1. It reduces the number of paid gigs around. 2. It reduces the fee that landlords will pay for pro/semi pro acts, as they "know a few bands who will do it for free" 3. ...... and can reduce the quality of music being played out there .... and lower the reputation of the local music scene in general (which has an additional effect on points 1 & 2).

Some of the "I don't care" comments (not yours incidentally), I find disrespectful to fellow musicians. Especially to the musicians who need the money to pay the mortgage. I think we have enough issue to deal with - and don't to have our worth devalued by the actions of other musicians.
[/quote]
Dark Lord, although we have different views on this subject, it's almost contradictory of me to say, that I agree and sympathise with your comments, and thanks for recognising the fact that I am not one of the "I don't give a toss" brigade, because I am looking at the argument from both sides.

I sympathise with the guys in your band who are going through hard times, but I can honestly say that on 9th October 2011, due to arthritis, I had an operation on my thumb in which they put in a prosthesis, unfortunately it was not successful and had to have it removed on 16th June 2012. also I have arthritis in other parts of my body, and a total of six prolapsed discs in my back, so today marks exactly [u]one year of being off sick[/u] (that's why I spend so much time on Basschat).

Since February, I have been on £68 a week statutory pay, and I still have three years of my mortgage to pay, so I'm not in a position where I want to, or can afford to play for nothing, but for the reasons I stated earlier, we are a decent enough band, but we just don't seem to be able to break onto the local circuit.

I can't walk more than 100 yards or so, without having to stop for a rest, and I need a stick a lot of the time now, but please believe me when I say I do not feel sorry for myself, because I spent years, bringing seriously ill patients, some only babies to hospital from all parts of the UK, so I know that I am one of the lucky ones, but apart from my family, playing bass in a band situation is the biggest enjoyment I get, even if when we do gig, it's painful during each set, but the adrenalin carries me through.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349786856' post='1830490']
Is this still going on?

Since it is a couple more points....

Firstly every poster needs to say whether they are talking about covers bands or originals bands since they are two entirely different markets with different long and short term aims.

Secondly I find the idea that live bands are basically interchangeable completely laughable. Unless you are the most generic of average covers bands you must have something the differentiates you from other bands - songs performance etc.

My band plays original music and most of the time we get paid for it. I'm not worried about bands playing for free taking gigs away from us because they are not Dick Venom & The Terrortones and therefore are not a substitute.
[/quote]
That's exactly right, my band playing at the local "spit & sawdust" for nothing, will never be a threat to you lot, you are a great band that deserves a fee.

My band is a decent band, but we struggle to break onto the local circuit of 'prestigious' venues, not because they think we are crap, we hand out demo's and cards with our website address, and when you go back the following week to see what they think, they can't even remember what they did with the Cd's etc. that we gave them.
So in the end, if you want to play live, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, or put all your gear in the 'for sale' section.

I absolutely love playing music, and unlike some, for me, playing for nothing is better than not playing at all.

And I say it again, if you are that good, then a few bands who play for the sheer pleasure of it, will be of no threat to you at all!

There seems to be a strong link with this ongoing thread:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/182290-play-for-free/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/182290-play-for-free/[/url]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349786177' post='1830475']
Although this is a poorly thought out analogy. A better one would be if there were a few plumbers out there offering to come and do it for free - thereby doing the normal plumbers out of work.
[/quote]
Fair enough, but were there no points in my post that you agree with?

Whether you like it or not, playing at "The Dog & Duck" in front of a handful of people, is the starting/lowest (nothing wrong with that) rung of the ladder, as you work your way up to the larger venues, and then if your really good/lucky, maybe stadiums, for decent sums of money.

I don't see that its any different to lets say, footballers playing in the park or lower leagues for nothing, but once they prove themselves, they can then command a fee, at better clubs in better stadiums.

I think that most of the people on here, [u]are not[/u] talking about playing the prestigious venues in town for nothing, but the smaller pubs who attract few punters, regardless of whether they have a band on or not.

Not all the people who run pubs are clued up on music, and don't have a clue about promotion, facebook, distributing flyers etc. so in some ways, they are giving the [u]new[/u], and maybe [u]less talented[/u] bands a chance to play 'live', even if it is for nothing, we all play at different levels, and we all deserve that chance to see if we can cut it or not.

At the end of the day, we are not talking about big money at most venues, £200/250 split between 4/5 people doesn't amount to much, and how many of you 'elite' bands actually pay tax? and if you are in the bracket of having to pay tax, then a bunch of hobby musicians are never going to be a threat to the top bands earning good money at the top venues.

Life is too short, so why don't we all just [b]live and let live![/b]

I'm now going to change the washer on my leaking tap now, [b]hold on![/b] maybe I should get a plumber in to do it instead, as I might be doing him out earning a bit of cash.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1349732922' post='1829938']
A lot of money ... but those neck date stamps only started in 1962 and the first number, i.e. 6 in your example, was not a date but a model number. 5 for Precision, 7 for Jazz and 6 was Bass VI. The letter at the end is nut width.

[url="http://zeus.lunarpages.com/~jimshi2/neckstamps/fender_neck_codes_1962.htm"]http://zeus.lunarpag..._codes_1962.htm[/url]
[/quote]
Thanks for the info, with or without the date stamp, I think a lottery win is the only way I will ever have a chance of owning a 51 precision.

Mind you, am I right in saying that John Entwistle owned No 5, and he said that it was crap, and unplayable?

[quote name='simon1964' timestamp='1349729609' post='1829862']
Here's a pic of the neck date stamp on my '64 Precision.


[url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/sim0n1964/8068359886/"][/url]


Given my date of birth is 5 Nov 64, I had to go for it!
[/quote]
That's the best one yet!

My birth date is 6 Nov 51, the year fender first started selling the Precision bass, how much would that set me back?

Interesting read!

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1349710521' post='1829436']
You can be too selective though. I answered an ad from a guitarist who was looking to put together a rock band to do stuff from 1968 to 1975. It turned out that he was strictly adhering to that too, as he was only intested in these years and nowt else.
[/quote]
Please don't take this the wrong way Hobbayne, but surely, if the ad says "[i]I want to put together a rock band to do stuff from 1968 to 1975[/i]", then really that's what you should expect.

I've spent the last 18 months trying to put together a [i]Dr Feelgood/Pirates pub-rock[/i] type band, and lots of muso's answer the ads saying that's what they like too, then 2 or 3 months down the line, they start wanting to introduce stuff that is not in that genre, and I'm back to square one.
It might be narrow-minded of me, but that's what I want to play, and if I can find like-minded musicians, then I will be happy.

I think that we all need to get this into perspective.

Some pubs get extra punters through the door because there is a band on, but a lot of pubs who have bands, don’t get any extra punters at all.

I was in a pub only last week who used to have live music regularly, so I asked the manager why he no longer does, and he said, "[i]there was hardly any extra money going over the bar, so why should I pay out £200/300 for a band, and have no extra punters at all[/i], and I had no answer to it.

On the other hand, if he was to turn around to me and ask, "[i]would your band play here for nothing, but the band and your partners would be ok for drinks (within reason) all night[/i]", then I would probably be tempted, after all, it’s a night out for the WAGS, a free rehearsal for the band, and more importantly, the buzz of playing to a live audience, regardless of its size.

Now before some of you say that if we were any good, we should demand money, it’s not quite as simple as that, we are decent enough, but I know many exceptionally good bands locally, who are struggling to get gigs because there just aren't enough pubs doing live music any more, and those who do, tend to stick to the bands they know, and pay so little, that it’s hardly worth bothering about anyway.

On the other hand, if a venue is charging for admission, then the band should definitely get paid, but if the venue is not charging for admission, and it doesn't really benefit from extra punters and revenue, then why shouldn't a band play for fun?

I know a lot of you guys and gals are fantastic musicians, and play in great bands, and are getting gigs all the time, but you have to accept that there are different levels, and we all have a right to play for free, if that is what is required to get the occasional gig.

It would be interesting to find out how many BC’ers are actually in bands, and if not, why not?

Is it because it is getting increasingly harder to get gigs, so don’t bother any more?

Does the [b][i]Morpheus Droptune Pedal[/i][/b] work with bass?

Anyone got/tried one?

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1349608615' post='1828156']
I'm more impressed with the braces ...
[/quote]
You were not meant to notice them!

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1349604204' post='1828092']
There you go. I bought a new MM P neck from a UK guy on the bay and IIRC it was £95 all in.
[/quote]
Bluebass?

I've used him before, and I contacted him first, but he didn't have any at the time?

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349604549' post='1828099']
I've still got mine.



As you can see it's hardly in original condition either. The finish had already been stripped when I get it, and the scratch plate had been drilled for two extra controls plus another jack socket, none of which were wired to the rest of the guitar electronics. All the replacements/modifications I've done since have been to keep it in a playable state. I love the sound of both Tri-Sonic pickups on together.

Did your's have a fully adjustable bridge or a simple wooden one?
[/quote]
Mine was just the standard Sonic model I believe, and I'm sure it had a metal adjustable bridge.
But it did sound good at the time, although I suppose it would do, as it was my first ever bass!
Here's a picture of me playing it in 1967, the guy at the back was an american over on holiday, who we got to know and I think he is playing an EKO 12 string, if my memory serves me correctly, and I remember that it sounded great.

And just look at my [b][i]flower power kipper tie!!! [/i][/b]

We were all around 15/16 at the time, and sadly we all went our separate ways, and I never played again until about six years ago at the age of 54.

Maybe we should start a thread featuring pictures of our first ever bands?