scalpy

17 hours ago, JapanAxe said:

In pubs with an open ‘stage’ setup I sometimes have to remove punters’ pints from the top of my amp!

This particular gig it was bottles of champagne. The guitarist was constantly moving them away from his floor mounted Kemper and off the subs. We all made the move to in-ears not so long ago but the singers have been on them for over a year- we’ve definitely noticed that the stage invasions and littering have increased with the lack of psychological boundary. We thought that the lack of monitors posed less of a hazard for punters but actually the singers have had more people piling into them and their iPad, it’s daft how these things work out.

Punters on stage is recurring issue for us, as is using the stage edge as a bin.

Funnily enough this was a young farmers style gig- basically that community. So technically a private event booked by joe public so no venue insurance (in all likelihood I imagine) and no team dedicated to cleaning or security. We’ve done several for this set and every time something has wrong footed us, the only time we’ve had stuff nicked for example or been expected to play much louder than we have the capacity for. This is despite my wife being the former county administrator for the YFC and running their chairman’s events each year and the like. 
 

All the above advice has been very helpful though, thank you all, we shall look at how address these issues and navigate who has the responsibility etc. Looking at Dads picture of a stage above in the thread I’d be worried about the lack of rails around the three sides, but it may have been still in construction. 

To be honest I've not thought of a function/party band like ours using a barrier. Another thing to negotiate!

Just now, Happy Jack said:

 

@Silvia Bluejay and I have just been talking about this ... were you using speakers on tripods or speakers on sub-woofers (i.e. boxes)? Even in a newly-ploughed field a decent tripod is a very stable thing.

 

The lights were on a tripod. Initially I thought it was the legs of those that tripped the guy up but several people who saw it more directly said he was just blind drunk and managed it all by himself. The PA arrangement is a one by ten sub that has two 8 by 3 columns plugged into it- an in-line array. They are light and compact so have a small footprint- hence a degree of instability. 

23 minutes ago, Nicko said:

You may very well be right, but it's open to interpretation.  The OP states that they had identified a risk and were concerned enough about it to take some actions knowing that the actions were insufficient to mitigate the risk.  They had also foreseen potential actions of the punters as part of risk so I'm not sure the "but for" is applicable. Stating it as a "lose lose" situation and "hoping for the best" is pretty damning.

 

It's a minefield.  The only course of action that would have guaranteed safety would have been to refuse to set up until the organiser made the floor stable, but that would have risked the whole event, putting weights on the tripod bases, or to somehow tether the unstable kit to something.

You're absolutely right and we're going to have to discuss how to tackle this in the future. We already ask for adequate power supply for example. The underlying issue if you pardon the pun was the ground the marquee was put up on- a farm in rural Herefordshire is never going to be billiard table smooth. The tent itself and the flooring was from a decent company. I don't know where the culpability would lie, so maybe another excuse to purchase the big FBT rig with giant subs I'm after- you'd have to be The Rock to tip those over. 

This topic often comes up on here so I thought I’d share an anecdote from one of this weekends gigs. Marquee gig, black tie event-so everyone thought they were better than everyone else, but the lining for the floor was not very level. Consequently the dance floor wasn’t either, which got wet with lots of spilt drinks and our PA columns, a HK elements in line set up, are a bit wobbly. We’ve had people swing from them like a strip club before so we looked at how to minimise the risk. Putting boards underneath them made them more wobbly if you stepped on them, and right out at the edges of the tent the ground was even more uneven. In a lose lose situation we decided to make them as obvious as possible by putting our lighting stands by them (on tripods), the same set up either side and hope for the best. 
 

We were on late and doing three sets, so by the time we got to our third set the crowd were plastered, trying to get onstage with us, drink was all over the dance floor and they were requesting any song they could think of, to be played at maximum volume whilst we grabbed a drink. My wife and I were just minding the stage when one gentlemen managed to lose his balance. The sequence of events was roughly- he falls into the edge of the stage of his own volition, keyboard with laptop goes over plus microphone, he puts his arm out and rolls off the stage into the PA column, toppling it and the lighting stand. 

Five minutes before the lighting stand would’ve sliced somebodies head open- it’s on of those bars with 4 LED digital par cans on. Somehow no one was hurt and nothing was broken but we would’ve had a very challenging situation on our hands if an accident had have happened. 
 

We will be be upping our cover, fastidiously updating our player list and checking renewal dates in the future- that was a seriously close call. 

1 hour ago, Bunion said:

You could try this one 😄

 

 

I had that on VHS as a teenager in the early 90s, but there’s something about that exact tempo, sound and performance on 99 that just gets me.

Not a live video sorry, never found one that has the same atmosphere but this  is what Duck was talking about when he said he had a band powerful enough to turn goat’s pi55 into gasoline. 

38 minutes ago, nekomatic said:

mrs nekomatic once got the kids a pBone for a bit of fun (as they already both played piano and violin) and for a further bit of fun got someone she knows to give them a couple of lessons. Somehow a couple of lessons turned into a full on third instrument, kid 1 let it drop after a while but kid 2 recently got his grade 7, on a King we inherited from my late uncle who used to play in an amateur orchestra in Belgium. 
 

Kid 2’s teacher is now trying him out on some jazz, much to his initial reluctance but last lesson while I was working upstairs I could overhear him taking solos on Watermelon Man to a Jamey Aebersold backing track, and I may coincidentally have got something in my eye. 

Lovely!

Not trombone but trumpet, so an extremely tenuous similarity to Macca’s early career. The ox was a French horn player, so there’s a long tradition of b(r)assists. 

Sire V7 for me. I have two American G&Ls I have huge sentimental attachment to for various reasons and I prefer playing massively over the Marcus Miller. I don’t like the weight, the neck finish, the floppy B string, the colour (blood orange- seemed like a good idea at the time) the knobs and definitely not the tuners. But for some reason I’m happy playing it, it sounds brilliant, I’m not worried about it picking up dings etc and it’s good fun, somehow. Plus when the G&Ls get an outing it’s a luxury. 

2 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

I like RB and as a drummist myself I'm a big fan of Purdie but 1 hour 22's a bit long for me and unfortunately you can longer longer skip forward on YT. You  can though on here so 👍 for this

On your phone or tablet double tap the screen left or right depending on on whether you want to go backwards or forwards.

Regarding the interview, it was really nice to see Bernard’s humility in his old age, his reputation for an ego the size of a small planet was legendary but he seems to have really dialled it back and the anecdote about taking drums on the bus was great, his face was a picture.

Aside from the overhang issues, enjoyed borrowing a hi watt to pair with my db112s. Near as dammit mint 1972/3 100w for guitar, but was excellent as a bass amp. 

Had a little mark tube 500 for 12 years, a lmIII with a slightly different preamp. Been 100% fault free, aside from needing a internal hoover every now and again. 

21 hours ago, E sharp said:

Trying it out now, really nice. 
 

Bass and treble switches don’t do much, but the core tone is lovely 

We heard…😉

Mostly functions. Plus 8 or 9 weeks of am dram pit work a year. One original artist on the books if he’s gigging at the time and I’m available, and once I a blue moon some session work. 

The solution for this in my function band is rather extreme. I arrange all the keyboard parts- a lot of right hand only work. I then programme the Mainstage patches, all of which are high passed like crazy. If we use a dep, they have our keyboard rig. If any of them don’t like it, they don’t come back! Dealt with. 

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Wot, no break? The neglect, the neglect.

Sorry, very little signal out there. Went well, only triggered the meter once at the start of the second half- another reason not to play Let Me Entertain You in my book but the singers do insist and I’m married to one of them….

We worked really hard on this gig, rebuilt our in-ears rig, had training on how to use them effectively (no amount of internet expertise could help us luddites) and rehearsed with a db meter to make sure. 

Venue was really happy, most importantly the bride was happy and it was worth the effort. 

Here we go then, almost all set up, meter appears to be right above the stage. No soundcheck yet, but the venue manager has been very friendly. So far……

As it happens 2! We played Saturday night. Working mens club type set up, landlord points out meter, gives let’s say a verbally inefficient description of its function and operation- then tells us not to worry, it hasn’t been turned on for years…..

4 hours ago, ezbass said:

They really are quite the talented couple. DT’s slide playing is always amazing and ST is no slouch either, plus the voice.

 

On the whole, I quite liked the recreation, but I missed the massive drum sound. Should’ve got Jason B to do it.

Massive fan of TTB, got tickets for the palladium later in the year, looking forward to it already.

I’m a sucker for anything with Derek and Susan, plus it’s one of my favourite zep tracks so 👍 from me. Just wish someone in my band could play harp like that. 

4 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Update???

The gig is at the end of next month. I have a friend in another local function band who’s also playing there soon and they are getting the same treatment. They can’t do the daytime soundcheck either. I rang the venue last week and we played telephone tennis for a day, so I’ll try again Monday.

51 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Ok.

 

Unlike sound limiter systems that cut power after the music has exceeded the threshold (usually for 3-5 seconds), these in-house systems work with a brick wall limiter (think 20:1 compressor if you understand what that means) across the LR outputs that feed the amplifiers.

 

How a band sets up for such a gig is usually pretty straightforward. So in this case, the wedding band are expected to turn up with a silent stage setup - this means modelling systems for the guitars and an electric kit. Keys and additional instruments should be direct or if that is not possible (eg for vocals, horns (ha! Don’t even bother)) miced up if required. (So yes to vocals, no to horns as they’ll be (too) loud enough already. All mixing is done by the band mixer, and then the L R is sent to the venue system.

 

All monitoring needs to be done via IEM, which the band provisions. (So if this isn’t a normal method of monitoring, lots of bands will immediately be faced with a nightmare playing such a venue. Why? Because there’s the cost of the IEMs themselves - but also the need for the band to have a mixer that can provide enough IEM mixes for all the players)

 

So once you get your mix sounding lovely, it then goes off to hell to be processed by the venue system.

 

So let’s look at what is going into that system. All the instruments that are going in have a huge dynamic range. So as an example, when playing your bass, you may have a 12db difference between playing softly and digging in, or hearing the attack when playing with a plectrum. Now it’s not unusual to have a compressor on a bass, but what happens, it that it’ll be set at a mic lower ration and set to release quick quickly, so all it’s doing is squishing the extreme initial transients why retainining the overall sound of the bass.

 

Again, on the vocals, you’ll have a softer compressor, smoothing out those transients.

 

So in general compressors are generally good at “smoothing” the intruments so it’s more pleasant to the ear. But the key thing to remember is that the compression in these situations are low ratios with quick release times.

 

(For those still not understanding compression what I’m stating, here’s a rough guide. On a compressor you set a threshold at the point you want the compressor to act. The ratio states how much you want the compressor to reduce the signal. So for example, for 3:1, every 3db above the threshold, the compressor will only allow 1db through. 5:1, every 5db above the threshold it will only allow 1db through. The compressor will also have attack, hold and release. Attack is the time it takes for the compressor to act, hold is how long the compression is held for - and the release is how long it takes for the compression to stop acting upon the signal. So for example, for a a snare, or vocal plosives, a compressor will tame the transient associated with both those inputs - but once that initial transient falls under the threshold, the compressor will naturally let go. The key thing is that the compressor should sound pretty natural and still allow all the instruments to breathe.

In recorded music, say in the studio, you have the advantage that you have the programme material in advance. You can run the signals through multiple compressors, automate faders and really spend your time controlling the output of each channel and the final LR for mastering. You can’t do that with live music. You haven’t got that level of control or a crystal ball (although if you know the music well enough, you can ride VCAs like they do in the west end to ride in those transients - but again, that’s not practical in this situation).

 

So let’s talk about what is happening when it goes into the venue PA. When the venue has the venue PA installed, the system is fed with pink noise (which gives you a flat output at every frequency along the audio spectrum) - and this will be heard in the venue. What should happen is that the PA is tuned to the venue so there are no hot nodes/frequencies. Great. Next, the amps are set so the maximum output of the system is 96dB. Great. So every single frequency that is output is at 96dB.

 

Now onto the bands desk - its a fair assumption that the bands output from the desk is not exceeding 0dB on the fader. Ideally that should be skirting around -12 to -3dB.

 

Now remember what I said about transients, well, it should come as no surprise that bands don’t play pink noise. They have transients which occur at different frequencies. Let’s talk about limiters briefly now. Imagine your band playing at 96db RMS (the average sound level shall we say), there will be times that it’s below 96 but also times that it’s above. The limiters usually have a traffic light system that will warn you that you are over 96 - so that snare hit may flicker the orange or red lights - but as long as it’s not for an extended period of time, you are good. So in short, you can have a band playing at a nominal level but still enjoy a level of dynamic range.

OK back to our crippled venue. Remember that I said that maximum volume output is 96dB? Well, that your maximum transient range. So if you want your band with some level of dynamics, you really need to be playing at 88dB. To put that into context, that’s lower than that of a hairdryer. (And also take into account that a hairdryer output is more akin to pink noise (so sounds louder) than the RMS of music).

This is where the problem starts. 88dB does not get a party started but does get you the maximum dynamics out of the system. What you also get is people complaining that the band isn’t loud enough. So what can you do? Well, you could push your LR fader. Immediately you hear the band get a bit louder… but what is happening in reality? Well, your transients start to get clipped by the brick wall limiter on the front end. This causes a number of things to happen, your dynamic range is reduced, so whilst the RMS is higher, the music becomes less exciting. It causes the transients to become clipped (more on this later), which can then be heard as audible distortion. Clipped transients actually tires your ears - meaning listeners ears will get more fatigued… so as the night goes on, the listeners ears perceive the mix to be getting worse. The result is that they usually ask you to turn up.

 

So as you’ll probably see, turning up actually makes the problem worse.

Right, let’s get back to these clipped transients. As I’ve alluded to, the front ends of these systems are protected by a brickwall limiter. The installers know that bands are going to keep pushing up the output to the point where clipping will happen. So either the instructions will tell you to not give any more beans from your desk if a clip light is being observed… however, it also doesn’t look good on the company if the system is both clipping on the input signal and clipping the transients. So what do they do? Lower the gain so that the front end doesn’t clip… net result, your desk dB is down the number of dB they’ve introduced as additional headroom on the front end of their system.

 

So all in all, it’s a complete disaster for those expecting a decent sounding band.

 

Meanwhile, any prerecorded music sounds great as it’s been stripped of any excessive transients, and been mastered and limited in a super controlled environment. But of course the punters don’t understand that and want to know why the disco can be louder than the band.

 

Oh and for those wondering where the measurement is taken? Well… 1m from a speaker is not unusual.

 

 

 

Great post thank you. I don’t think there is a house PA (venue still being cagey) but the info about peaks and a sensible target of 88dB is very useful. We have horns though, and strong singers….. Not feeling anymore confident about this!