jude_b

Weekend bump and thanks for the PM interest shown so far.

Some slight deviations from above - going only for quite famous players:

Jameson - What's Going On? (Marvin)

Jaco - The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines (Joni Mitchell)

Paul McCartney - Day in the Life

(Been relistening to The Beatles a lot lately and think he is quite underrated as a bass - sounds as if he's playing classical (piz) bass on electric on some of the Sgt Pepper era stuff.)

Larry Graham - The Jam (Graham Central Station)

Bootsy - Soul Power or maybe Hot Pants (Jame Brown)

Jimi Hendrix - All Along the Watchtower

Bernard Edwards - Good Times (Chic)

Norman Cook - Praise You (well it was probably done electronically but it is a good bassline and he is a pretty famous bass player)

I think, for now, I'm going to have to agree with the sentiments of the original post title.

I'm afraid that when I've read the above posts, I still just convert everything into major/minor scales with appropriate adjustments. When I'm playing/writing I also just think in terms of conventional scales or chords. I understand what modes are, I just haven't found them to be useful in practice - perhaps that's because I came to bass from piano, on which chords and harmonic relationships are arguably easier to visualise (at least that's what's implied by the use of pictures of the keyboard in standard books on harmony).

Perhaps I need to look into modes a bit more carefully before dismissing them completely - they clearly are of use to other people and it's always useful to consider alternative approaches.

I'm still surprised, however, that modes are introduced so early in popular guitar/bass books to, what I feel, is the detriment of conventional theory. I seem to remember having many conversations at cross purposes with guitarists who quoted modes without any real knowledge of the musical theory/notation that the vast majority of other musicians use!

All the best.

Had look at this and it was quite interesting. Particularly in the sense that it is a reminder of how current western scales are a mixture of convention and fashion. No doubt we will end up with something quite different in a few hundred more years.

The main point I was trying to make, albeit a little flippantly, was that I think modes may be quite confusing for someone trying to pick up theory. Whilst I'm self taught on bass, I'm classically trained on piano and modes were completely unnecessary for the range of styles I covered as a student (and continue to play).

I've always been surprised that guitar magazines and the like always seem to introduce them at an early stage, rather than as an arcane bit of historical theory.

I can understand that it might be useful to learn different patterns that are variations of the western scales with diminished/augmented notes in - however, why isn't this just expressed in the more commonly used standard musical notation rather than modes? Perhaps modes can be used as a shortcut to the family of 7ths, which are important in jazz/blues/rock etc, which the vast variety of electric guitarists/bassists want to get to?

Someone learning using modes also has to (eventually) convert what their learning into standard scales, which I can imagine leads to additional confusion. I guess a tutor would argue it's good for the soul.

Finally, guitarists/bass guitarists have to communicate with other musicians and surely ordinary/diatonic scales is the best way to do this?

I was really just looking for some insight into why modes tend to be pushed in mainstream guitar/bass tutor books but not (at least in my experience) for other instruments, where modes are a rather more advanced theoretical idea.

My prejudice probably comes from my old piano teacher. He was also a classical guitarist and told me not to waste my time worrying about modes.

If there are good reasons why modes are useful, then I may have been missing out and I should get practicing them. I just need to make sure I don't get them mixed up with the columns outside old buildings.

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='661117' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:52 PM']Without wishing to sound overly pompous & boring may I politely suggest you have a look at my article series on Ancient Greek music in the pinned thread on this forum, which will give you a historical perspective (and maybe a few other bits as well...) [/quote]

Bump.

Apologies to all the Stingray sellers I've been hoaring this around to.

"The root is King,The 5th is Queen, and the 3rd is the Jack"

[quote name='fatback' post='652338' date='Nov 12 2009, 10:02 AM']I quite like that, actually![/quote]

I like that too - sounds like Bob Dylan.

I've never really got my head around modes, despite covering them in theory, they always seemed a bit unnecessary given a knowledge of major, minor and blues scales.

I've just misspent some money on a bass magazine on a journey home from London and the theory part in the back on modes makes general relativity look like a breeze - really horrible. The names are enough to put you off alone.

From memory, did modes predate the development of major/minor scales - I seem to remember them being used in Medieval plainsong or something? Can we consign them to history?

They always seem to be used in guitar magazines and (I think) tend to confuse the issue. I can't remember Ray Brown directly using modes in his book on bass method.

I'm self taught on bass, so maybe this is a gap in my knowledge - can anyone who's been trained with modes explain whether/how they are helpful?

(Sorry for going a little off topic)

If anyone's interested, the online Italian dictionary says "con ritmo".

Apologies to any Italian speakers out there if I've just said something offensive.

I find that written music for, say, the piano, and particularly classical, is much easier to interpret along the right lines without hearing the piece first.

I've personally found that, in any case, standard notation transcriptions for bass can be pretty patchy and can only be used as a guide - particularly if there's slapping involved. I learnt a huge amount from a book called "Basslines" (can't remember the author right now), which included transcriptions of Mark King, Stanley Clarke, Marcus Miller and Jaco pieces. However, for some of the songs/pieces I had trouble tying in the transcriptions with what I was hearing on record (possibly my failing). Again, I learnt some of the pieces before hearing the records and, I think, I was further away on the funkier stuff than, say on the melodic/classical-ish pieces.

In short, I agree that groove is difficult to notate. Although, saying that, I now remember some Gershwin piano preludes, where the groove came naturally from the left hand rhythm. Perhaps you need a good transcription, reading abilities and the experience of the type of music you're playing. I suspect the real answer lies in being a good enough reader/player to really pick up the rhythm from a good transcription.

You should really get a proper upright and I just happen to be selling one that fits in your price range...

However, they are cumbersome old lumps and I can understand why you might want an electric upright first.

Personally, I've found it quite difficult to make the transition from electric (including fretless) to upright. I think the main reason is that, because of where I am in life at the moment, I just haven't been able to put in the practice I think you need.

If you want to play upright properly I'd suggest getting a teacher, having lessons and being prepared to put in some serious groundwork. I've found the physicality of the upright is quite different too - particularly trying to get the strings down to the fretboard in higher registers.

It depends what you want to play, of course. Generally speaking, folk is likely to be easier to pick up than jazz.

My (limited) experience of electric uprights is that they're nothing like as difficult to play as "proper" uprights and it's possibly easier to wing it on an electric upright without developing correct DB technique. So going to electric upright first might be a bit misleading.

Best of luck in any case!

Just thought I'd add that I'm happy to consider offers for trades (in some respects I'd prefer this to a sale).

[b][/b][i][/i]NOW SOLD - PLEASE REMOVE

I've come to the conclusion that I'm never going to be Ray Brown and double bass is probably not for me.

I bought this 3/4 Andreas Zeller bass last January for around £1100. Much to my shame this was around the time my partner and I were expecting our first daughter. I don't know if this was a case of some last minute recklessness, but there you go.

Since the bass arrived, I just haven't had a chance to get to grips with it. I think I really need lessons and an hour a day's practice much as I did when I was a youngster going through piano grades. Moreover, I can't see myself getting a chance to dedicate serious time to it for several years. It's hard enough trying to keep some kind of technique together on the electric bass and the piano, and I've been playing both of those for donkey's years.

I think I'm going to the conclusion that I'd be better of selling it now whilst it's in mint condition than leaving it to fester in the corner. If I get the urge to learn again in a few years than I can get another DB then.

I'd ideally like somewhere near the £900 mark for it as it's (in effect) eleven months old and hardly been used. I'd also be looking for someone to pick it up, unless they live in the vicinity of Bristol, in which case I'm happy to deliver.

I'll also throw in the stand, a french bow (with rosin) and some starter books - these add up to around £100. No case or gig bag, I'm afraid.

If anyone can convince me that it's worth sticking with the double bass, then I'll take their advice seriously. But I've thought about how many hours I've devoted to learning the electric bass and the piano and I just don't see how I can do it!

If anyone's interested, please give me a shout.

I've heard some comments that the quality of Mexican Fenders can be variable, although the same can possibly be said about many of the basses of large scale manufacturers irrespective of what country the bass is built in.

Have never had a problem with mine - a solid working bass, with a good range of tones and excellent value.

As with anything, I'd probably try out the particular bass you intend buying a few times to make sure it feels and sounds right for you.

I once got some good advice from a session player, along the lines of "You spend 10 years learning how to play and then the rest of your life learning what not to play."

As others have said, you've got to got listen to a lot of different stuff to find out what's possible and then work out what you can do and then what you actually want to do. It's absolutely natural to decide that some of the stuff you've listened to whilst learning isn't very interesting after all. Some of the rubbish I've listened to because the bassline is interesting is downright embarrassing.

I really hate the jazz-funk-light that a lot of technically gifted bass players seem to gravitate towards. To me it's musical dishwater - particularly when it's been created primarily to throw the spotlight on a bass playing virtuoso to the detriment of the music. Why is the tone of the bass horribly tinny quite often as in Alain Do-dah's video?

I don't count the Jaco's output in this category as I think the majority (but certainly not all) of his playing fits in with the overall musical context - and it also helped that he played with some seriously talented people. I'm afraid that I still think Donna Lee is genius after hearing it for the first time first 20 years ago.

I also think there's a point where there's only so much time and effort you want to put into technique (particularly when life starts getting in the way).

My favourite bassline at the moment is to JB's Soul Power (Bootsy), it couldn't be simpler yet it's so effective and also strangely gets the baby off to sleep.

Sorry, I've just nodded off myself reading back my posting.

[quote name='steve-soar' post='638503' date='Oct 27 2009, 09:20 PM']That is one of the most ditgusting displays of bass playing, ever.[/quote]

I had always wondered who made the test-card music.

In teenage arguments with my metal loving friend about whether Mark King was better than Steve Harris, his main objection to Mark King was the height at which his bass was slung. He also used to cite Steve Harris's ability to "pretend shoot" the audience whilst playing as a major plus point, so these clearly weren't Newsnight Review level debates.

Mark King was probably the reason I picked up a bass - not really because of his slap solos, but because some of his lines introduced me to (a sort of) funk. As others have said, this led on to other music and players. Talented chap too.

"i realize some of these are hard but i thought i better push myself instead of sticking to the easy stuff plus i have a lined fretless so its easy really...

Any more suggestions?"

> Looks like you're doing pretty well with the stuff you're learning - particularly if you can play Havona!

> A final suggestion is to play along to the Cannonball Adderley version of Autumn Leaves on Somethin' Else - I learned it on the fretless (not particularly note for note - just improvising around the chord changes) - although I liked the bassline so much flogged my fretless and switched to upright!

A few suggestions:

Ideal World - The Christians: not that keen on the song but this has a really nice fretless solo towards the end, which isn't too difficult to work out by ear.

A Remark You Made - Weather Report: I realise this is a Jaco bassline, but he uses chords in an interesting way and there is also a nice melody line in there.

On the Turning Away - Pink Floyd: I'm really only familiar with the Guy Pratt/live version on Delicate Sound of Thunder - the bassline on the verse when the bass comes in is really lovely.

I agree that anything by Pino is worth working on and that Graceland by Paul Simon has some of my favourite fretless playing on it. Particularly in the sense that the playing fits the music so well.

The bassline from Ramble On by Led Zep also works well on a fretless.

River People by Weather Report (sorry, Jaco again) is also a good exercise in octaves and the closing groove is brilliant.

Hope this helps. Going by the age of some of this stuff, it seems that the fretless has really gone out of fashion - I can't think of much recent material where a fretless is used.

Oh, and if you can endure it, I seem to remember that The Lady in Red by Chris de Burgh also has a good fretless line on it - on second thoughts, I think that may be taking suffering for your art a little far.

Just to add that I think they're only open from 10-2 on Saturdays.

They have a good, relatively unusual range of instruments/gear (unusual to me at least anyway). I played on the Sandberg JM4 they have in there at the moment whilst trying out a Phil Jones amp, and wanted to take it home with me there and then - an absolutely lovely bass.

Bump + now on e-Bay.

Hello,

I'm new to this forum, which looks really useful and is light years away from the alt.bass newsgroups I used to read 12 years ago.

My first post is to advertise a bass and Peavey amp for sale - I realise these should probably be split across two posts - but the main sale here is the bass.

The bass is a Jaydee Roadie Supernatural fretless with one pickup and one eq, built for myself in 1992. The bass has a couple of superficial scratches on the back, but other than that is in really good condition - I had it professionally tarted/set up a couple of years ago. It has a slap bar on the neck and is currently fitted with flatwounds. The fretboard is in very good condition.

I'm loathe to sell the bass but now have an upright bass and really don't have much use for an electric fretless. Furthermore, I'd like to use the proceeds to help fund some Mark or Phil Jones gear.

I'm looking for somewhere in the order of £700 for it. I may be able to deliver it personally, if sold to someone in London, the soutwest or northwest of England. Happy to provide more pictures/information as necessary.

[attachment=29572:P4270087.JPG][attachment=29573:P4270088.JPG]

I also have a US made Peavey 160W combo for sale of the same vintage - this has been well used but still produces a lovely sound - looking for £150.

[attachment=29574:P4270089.JPG][attachment=29575:P4270090.JPG]

Thanks,

Jude.