alexclaber

From days of yore:



Sadly, since I started singing it's become this:



Alex

Not that I'm counting but do I have the most watts per rack space?

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='26593' date='Jul 3 2007, 05:13 PM']Excellent. And what does that mean?[/quote]

See this: [url="http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1293"]http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1293[/url]

Alex

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='26575' date='Jul 3 2007, 04:32 PM']The Marshalls are guitar cabs, open back, and that's a far better way to do it than a half-stack, but the benefits are lost when you put two side by side.[/quote]

Though you could crossfire a side by side pair - that would probably be quite nice considering how bad off-axis most guitar amps are.

Alex

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='26376' date='Jul 3 2007, 10:14 AM']sorry to jump in here, but appart from looking a little odd would i get better response from my mag 2x10 combo by sticking it on its side?[/quote]

Yes. You should hear the midrange more clearly and as you move around the room the tone should be more consistent - so your bandmates should hear you better too. Try it and report back!

My guitarist now does this with 2x10" or 2x12" combos - works a treat.

Alex

Get this!

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=45&st=0&gopid=24353&#entry24353"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...amp;#entry24353[/url]

£375 and you're sorted. Just use the combo most of the time - take the extension cab for louder gigs.

Alex

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='26175' date='Jul 2 2007, 07:11 PM']That can't be ARGH - he's only got 4 strings [/quote]

My thoughts exactly!

Alex

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26101' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:50 PM']So if I buy a 300w 115 Trace Elliot combo, what output am I gonna get?
And if I buy a Ashdown ABM C115 300, what output will I get?
WTF don't manufacturers put exactly what output you are gonna have instead of watts ohms etc etc.
What's the point of having 300w of power if the 15" speaker can't handle it?[/quote]

This is where it all gets rather complicated. We don't hear electrical watts, we hear Sound Pressure Level (SPL) which is measured in dB (technically referenced off pressure in millibars).

The relationship between electrical watts and SPL can be simplified as:

dB SPL = 10*LOG(amp power) + (speaker sensitivity)

Speaker sensitivity is measured in dB and is a measure of the dB SPL from a speaker at 1m distance with 2.83V input (which equals 1W into 8 ohms) and this varies with frequency.

If manufacturers quoted honest specs then you could do fairly accurate comparisons of how loud a given rig will be. Unfortunately as the sensitivity specs tend to be grossly overstated as do the frequency response specs (so the sensitivity in the lows - where it really matters - is far worse than claimed). Furthermore few bass speakers can accept anywhere full power without distorting and even those that can suffer from power compression so real output is less than calculated output.

And that's just SPL! Once you figure in the human ear's poor bass sensitivity and start thinking in Phons rather than pure SPL you see that your tone and EQ often matters more to how loud you are than how much power you have.

The simple answer is that a few hundred watts into a 15" or 2x10" will be enough in less loud bands though you may have to forfeit your ideal sound to get a sound that can actually be heard (more midrange, less bottom).

No bassist will ever win a volume war with a typical guitarist - but if everyone plays together, instead of competing to be heard the most, then you can get away with remarkably small bass rigs.

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='26094' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:18 PM'][url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1583"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1583[/url] - There you go, get that. £350.[/quote]

Agreed!

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='26078' date='Jul 2 2007, 03:49 PM']And if I got 4 of them I could have one stack on my side of the stage and another on the other side. [/quote]

Actually you shouldn't (hardly) ever separate bass sources due to cancellation problems. From the BFM site:

"Sub Placement:
While it’s customary with PA to have speakers to either side of the stage, that’s usually not the best way to place subs. Subs work best when they’re placed either close together for mutual coupling, or spread very wide to cover large areas. The basic rule is to have them either less than a quarter-wavelength apart or more than two wavelengths apart for their pass band, which for 40 to 100 Hz means less than 2.8 feet or more than 56 feet. Boundary loading should be used whenever it’s practical to do so. Having subs next to a wall gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity, and putting them in a corner an extra 12dB.

If there is a 'prime directive' when it comes to sub placement it is this: Never place subs with their radiating planes between 2.5 feet and 8 feet of a boundary.If you do at some frequency the within the 35 to 100 Hz passband, depending on the distance, the reflected wave will be 180 degrees out of phase when it meets the original wave again, cancelling it out.
For detailed information on boundaries look here: [url="http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm"]http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm[/url] "

A four B2 or dual B4 stack would be a pretty terrifying thing and at full volume would be way too loud for any drummer to keep up.

Alex

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26050' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:48 PM']Spoke to another bassist about the Roland D Bass 210 who said it is a nice amp but the 400w is shared between the 2 x 10 speakers and horn...[/quote]

I'd like to see a 2x10" + horn combo where the power isn't shared between the three drivers, that would be an impressive trick!

Seriously though, the D-Bass uses separate amps for each woofer due to the speaker control circuitry being independant for each speaker (it compares the actual motion of the cone to the desired cone motion and then adjusts the input signal to compensate) plus a separate tweeter amp like the GK gear (allowing clean highs even when you're overdriving the lows for extra punch).

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='26052' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:52 PM']Is it wrong for a funk player to dream of a double bass stack? :|[/quote]

Not at all - both Bootsy and Larry Graham would approve!

[quote name='The Funk' post='26052' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:52 PM']I think I'm sold. Now my only dilemma is which Acme cab or cabs? Hmm... I'm thinking maybe a B2 with a B2W - at the moment I like using the built-in crossover in the DB680 to send lows directly to my 15 and I run the 2x10 full-range.

If I got 2x B2s, then I suppose I'd keep the option of doing it that way or running both of them full-range.[/quote]

Your current approach is definitely a good one with your Hartke stack. I'd recommend a pair of B2s over a B2 and B2W - the cost saving is pretty minimal with the B2W and the extra mid/high output of a pair of mids and tweeters can be useful, particularly when you're on a stage but using the bass rig for the house sound, so the lower cab is more inline with audience ears. Also with a matched pair you can keep one at home and one where you rehearse and just take both for louder gigs, they make an excellent small PA for parties or acoustic gigs and they stack up as pretty fierce studio monitors when you're recording.

[quote name='The Funk' post='26052' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:52 PM']You may have solved my low end problem![/quote]

If Acmes can't then nothing can!

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='26034' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:12 PM']Damn, this is some eye-opening stuff.

So, in theory, if you want the faithful reproduction of true lows that Acmes offer but with a mid-range bump like a lot of cabs have, you could stack two B2s on their sides with the top one upside down?[/quote]

In theory, yes. Though it's probably easier to twist a few EQ knobs than juggle cab positions on the gig!

Just noticed you have a DB680 - with all that parametric EQ you could get any sound you could want from an Acme - and the WT1000 has plenty of juice to push one or two, with or without the Hartkes too.

Alex

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26026' date='Jul 2 2007, 01:51 PM']Went into Sound Control and the so called bass expert (have they really got any experts?)...[/quote]

You're right to question that, I've never been into a Sound Control where they had half a clue let alone one where they could be completely trusted to advise you correctly.

[quote name='smurfitt' post='26026' date='Jul 2 2007, 01:51 PM']Advised I should have a minimum of 600w as guitarists both have 150w combos. However, as I said in my original post: we are not a loud or heavy rock band and guitarists volume never exceeds level 3.
Comments please.[/quote]

The various rules of thumb about guitarist watts times two or four or whatever are very rough. If your guitarists were using every last watt from their 150W combos you would not be able to hear your drummer or vocalist at all. I get the impression that you'll be well served by a few hundred watts into a 2x10" or 1x15". If you're willing to carry a 4x10" then that'll be usefully louder but possibly overkill. The D-Bass combos go louder than they should for their ratings - try one before you write them off.

Peavey gear tends to be loud, reliable and excellent value for money. Rarely light but it'll outlast much more expensive gear and there's usually plenty of used stuff about.

Alex

[quote name='mhuk' post='25993' date='Jul 2 2007, 01:13 PM']He also uses his left thumb for fretting. [/quote]

BIG hands. Plays octaves with 1st and 3rd fingers too!

Alex

[quote name='peted' post='25783' date='Jul 1 2007, 09:58 PM']... how about looking at a 2x10 with a slightly larger cabinet or some kind of shelf porting to improve the bass response? E.g.
[/quote]

A 2x10" with larger cab volume should indeed give better bass sensitivity, all else being equal. Likewise a ported 2x10" should give better bass sensitivity than a sealed 2x10" - however it doesn't matter whether the ports are shelf/slot ports, triangular corner ports, square corner ports, round tube ports - they all work exactly the same way. So two cabs with identical internal volume and speakers, one with front slot ports of area X and length Y, and one with rear tube ports of area X and length Y, will have exactly the same frequency response. It doesn't even matter whether the ports are front, rear or side firing, as long as they are unobstructed (one port width of external clearance).

Eden have done a great job of persuading everyone that their dual slot-ported XLT cabs produce a magic amount of bass - actually their real advantage is the extra cab stiffness that all that bracing brings, they make essentially no difference to the sound.

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='25942' date='Jul 2 2007, 12:21 PM']Another quick question, if you don't mind - does it matter which way up you stack the B2s?[/quote]

It is always preferable to stack any speakers vertically, for smoother and wider horizontal dispersion and more controlled vertical dispersion. It matters less with Acmes than with typical 10" cabs as the woofers cross over to the midrange speaker at 1kHz, whilst a standard 10" cab relies on the woofer output to about 2.5kHz.

When using multiple Acmes it is preferable to have the mids and tweeters in vertical alignment due to the comb filtering you will otherwise suffer - same with any rig with multiple tweeters. If you were to place a pair of B2s so the mid speakers were almost touching (so one upside down, both on their sides on top of each other) then the mids will couple and give you another 3dB of output - I've never tried that but that's what acoustic theory says!

You could certainly place an B2 sideways underneath a typical 15" or 4x10" cab if you're mainly using it to add bottom.

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='25905' date='Jul 2 2007, 11:00 AM']How can I phrase this... huh? [/quote]

Acmes have always had a protection bulb inline with the midrange, tweeter and L-pads. If too much power goes through them the bulb absorbs the power (by lighting up) to protect them from blowing - basically like soft limiting. If you put far too much treble power through the circuit the bulb blows like a fuse to protect the speakers and L-pads. You then have to remove the speaker grill and top woofer to change it - it's a standard car indicator bulb. I used to blow the bulbs quite frequently in my old band because we were playing really loud, my amp was short of headroom and I was running pretty vicious distortion etc. Since I upgraded to a more powerful amp I never blew the bulbs again, despite continuing to use effects at high volume.

Anyway, Andy's now found a way that instead of the bulb you can use a polyswitch, which is basically a self-resetting fuse. If too much power flows through the polyswitch it heats up and its resistance goes through the roof, thus cutting the current flow and power. When the polyswitch cools down, business as usual is resumed. He charges an extra $10 for the polyswitch, which is definitely worth paying!

Alex

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25684' date='Jul 1 2007, 06:18 PM']What speakers are in your rig (very nice by the way!) and am I right that, in the one cabinet set-up, you've got something underneath the cab so that it's pointing upwards?[/quote]

The cabs are Acme Low-B2's - www.acmebass.com - they're a really nice 3-way design that's correctly tuned to give near-flat response from 41Hz-22kHz, -6dB @ 31Hz. Despite other cabs on the market claiming similar specs none of them actually come close. The downside is that the Acmes need more power to get loud but at least they can handle twice their rated power in the lows whilst most bass cabs can only handle a fraction of their rated power below 100Hz.

It sounds like your band is sensible about loudness, in which case an Acme Low-B2 should be plenty loud enough with a 500W head pushing it, and unlike the usual 2x10" it will sound big and fat. Obviously it won't go as loud as a 4x10" but it will bring as much bottom. Imported direct from the US with taxes and shipping costs figured in they're about £450 each.

Alex

[quote name='machinehead' post='25651' date='Jul 1 2007, 05:19 PM']After saying that I think the band have a f***ing cheek telling you what gear to use. Tell THEM to get something smaller. See how well that goes down? ha ![/quote]

I agree! Out of all the musicians in the band the bassist has by far the greatest need for a large rig due to the physics of reproducing low frequencies. What backline does everyone else use?

Alex

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']Bill - how does that work exactly or is that like asking for an explanation of relativity theory?[/quote]

Side by side speakers interact with each other in a bad way to cause comb filtering (peaks and troughs in response) as you move sideways. A vertical line of speakers disperses much more evenly. Also the dispersion in a given plane of a group of speakers producing the same signal is inversely proportional to their size in that plane. So a vertical line of 10" speakers will have narrow dispersion vertically (less sound bouncing off floor and ceiling) and wide dispersion horizontally (good for getting heard all round the stage and venue).

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']It really is a space issue and especially so because I always share the same side of the stage with the keyboard player...[/quote]

That seems crazy! Can you put the keyboard player's amp on top of yours?

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']I use 5 string basses and I find the 2x10 doesn't deliver on the low B, hence the question of what cab to use.[/quote]

This has a very small footprint and unbeatable response down to low B:



If your band is LOUD then you may need two, in which case you stack them vertically:



Alex

Most 2x12" cabs are the same size as 4x10" cabs. The ones that are smaller have less bottom, as bass sensitivity is tied in with cab size. A typical 2x10" will be significantly quieter than your 4x10" and therefore run out of bottom much sooner. I'm not quite sure why your bandmates want you to downsize your rig, it's not as if you'll save much space!

Alex

The BFM cabs certainly give you another nice and low budget option. Where they stand apart from the Acmes is they have less flat and less extended bass response and are significantly bigger - on the other hand this means they play louder with less power. That doesn't mean the Acmes are quiet - you'd have to be in a seriously loud rock band for two Low-B2s or a Low-B4 to not handle it. But the BFM cabs are very efficient compared to mainstream cabs and thus will reach similar SPL with about 1/4 the power and ultimately play a bit louder. For my needs having been through numerous theoretical DIY designs I've concluded that the single Low-B2 for rehearsals and two Low-B2s for gigs is an unbeatable combination - the pair give such a huge sound without PA support whilst a single cab is more than loud enough to hang with most drummers and just sounds so fat and clear compared to everything else.

One thing I have learnt is that any rig with true deep bass extension and output will conflict with any PA with proper subwoofers and you should thus keep the stage volume down and/or reduce your onstage bottom to avoid phase cancellation and reinforcement.

Regarding the B2W and B4W, they'll certainly add a whole load of output through the mids and lows, especially in the true lows below 100Hz where most bass cabs are pretty hopeless. However, with the small extra cost of the standard models and the fantastic fullrange sound with that 5" mid and dome tweeter, I think you're better off stretching to them and turning the attenuators down for sub use - but I bet you'll like the sound so much from the mids and tweeter that you end up using them as fullrange cabs. My only bugbear with Acmes were the protection bulbs but now you can have polyswitches which solves that problem.

Alex

Updated rig photos:





Insert extra cab and remove tiltback foam block for gigs. Like this: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61yUim1d3FI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61yUim1d3FI[/url]

Alex