alexclaber

Ye gods, don't pay anyone else to do it, clear waste of beer money! Furthermore I remain sceptical about the trade's understanding of non-Fender basses with unfinished open-grained woods.

I prefer to cut a fret shape out of a business card, then lay the card over the fret so the fret sticks through the hole but the fingerboard is covered by the card, and then gently scrub the oxide layer off with a green scouring pad. Brasso works well too if you have that to hand. A lot quicker than masking the whole board!

I occasionally lightly wax the board itself.

But remember, the dirt keeps the funk! (An excellent excuse for my irregular care regime). My Warwick turns twenty this Autumn and is still going strong - do these frets ever wear out?!

Alex

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29723' date='Jul 10 2007, 01:10 PM']Thanks again. No, we wont have PA support in the Marquee gigs. We will have our vocal PA but its not worth me going through that. We have played quite a few in the past and we only need to fill the dance floor, not the whole place so i think ill be fine.[/quote]

Yes, that sounds about right.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29723' date='Jul 10 2007, 01:10 PM']How do you know the sensitivity of the UL212? is it published or are you working it out?[/quote]

If you put the DeltaLite II-2512 T/S specs into WinISD Pro it calculates the sensitivity for you. You can also look at the plots on Eminence's site. Epifani use a proprietary speaker which is a tweaked II-2512 - when specifying OEM speakers you can't actually improve on the standard speaker, any gains on the one hand cause losses on the other. I realise that your UL212 has the old B&C drivers but they're similar enough to make little difference.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29723' date='Jul 10 2007, 01:10 PM']If the lows are that quiet maybe i need to look for a different cab.[/quote]

97dB is not low sensitivity - it's just real. To put it in perspective the difference between manufacturers' cab specs and reality is like car manufacturers' claiming their cars do 500mph when they actually do 125mph.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29723' date='Jul 10 2007, 01:10 PM']I do realise i don't hear the same on stage as the audience and my on stage sound is normally a lot more middy than i would like but if i go out front it is normally sitting well in the mix and the lows seem to bloom a bit more.[/quote]

'Bloom' is one of those myths that won't go away. What actually happens is people often stand in a null (due to boundary cancellation) near their cab and/or further away the midrange is blocked by the band members or audience.

Alex

Come to think of it, do Avalon, QSC and Acme endorse anyone? Bootsy got there first to my preferred strings and I only change them annually at most.

Are you gigging around Brighton much, Nate?

Alex

I am far too punk to endorse anything.

Alex

[quote name='Timface' post='29622' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:32 AM']Im really gasing on a ampeg 610!!
I used the ABM500 through 2 410s... very old cabs may I add.

Im still looking at getting ABM900 and Ampeg 610[/quote]

An ABM500 through two 4x10"s will be about as loud an ABM900 through a 6x10". As the former seems to be struggling, the latter seems a poor choice. To make a useful step up in output you need to double your power and double your number of speakers - that'll get you 6dB more. However that would be a quite ridiculous rig.

Therefore my gut feeling is that it's not the rig that is the problem but how you are using it. How is your EQ set?

Alex

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29690' date='Jul 10 2007, 12:23 PM']Great info. thanks very much.[/quote]

No problem - acoustics can be quite counter-intuitive but they're worth understanding. It's easy to forget that bass is omnidirectional but if you remember that and then use the surroundings to send the sound in the direction you need then it makes a huge difference.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29690' date='Jul 10 2007, 12:23 PM']I believe my UL212 is 103dB[/quote]

As I said, there are manufacturer's specs and reality - two different things! The actual sensitivity of a UL212 is ~97dB in the lows with a rising response in the midrange.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29690' date='Jul 10 2007, 12:23 PM']My next few gigs are marquees i believe but we are back at the camps in Aug so all this will be put in to practice if possible.[/quote]

At least with marquees you avoid the notching cancellation problem - though you need a lot more power due to the lack of any boundary reinforcement. Will you have PA support then?

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29690' date='Jul 10 2007, 12:23 PM']But like you say, its not always practical to place your rig near a wall. I will try though next time there is one. And i would rather not have to elevate or tip my cab.[/quote]

If you can juggle the stage set-up to get your cab in the right place when you don't have PA support, do so. Bear in mind that if your cab is neither elevated nor tilted you are unlikely to be within 30 degrees off-axis and therefore will not hear the true sound from your speakers. That of course needs to be balanced with where the rest of the band are relative to your cab, and if without PA support where the audience are.

Alex

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='29432' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:14 PM']I still reckon that proper low end all the way out into the room will need some PA support. Unless you have massive cabs, and then they will be too loud on stage.[/quote]

It really depends on the size and SPL requirement of the gig. If the PA does not have proper subs then I would always just use the bass rig for the house. If you do go through the PA you should keep the bass rig quiet because multiple bass sources in one room equals nightmares in sound due to the two being out of phase and causing uneven reinforcement and cancellation.

[quote name='endorka' post='29471' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:49 PM']There may be something else at work here - I have sometimes found that raised stages will increase the low end, but this increase may only be apparent to those on stage. So if you adjust the settings of your amp so that you get a good onstage sound in these circumstances, it is likely that your amp will sound thin and/or quiet to the audience.[/quote]

I agree. I don't believe in EQing to the room, you're always fighting a losing battle.

[quote name='endorka' post='29471' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:49 PM']In my experience, the best way to get a consistent sound is to not rely on variable methods of bass reinforcement, such as stages, walls, corners etc, but to have an amp and speaker setup that will produce enough low end by itself for most, if not all, of your gigs.[/quote]

Yes and no. You are better served by having a rig with plenty of headroom (not in terms of watts, in terms of max SPL vs required SPL) than pushing a small rig to its limits but however powerful your rig you cannot fight physics - if the backwave off all the boundaries cancels out the front wave from your speakers power will not help you - you have to fight clever and relocate your rig.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29606' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:01 AM']Im really rubbish at judging room dimension so i wouldn't like to say. plus each of the three rooms were very different but what i can say is that my cab was about 3-4 feet from the back wall and not in the corner on all the gigs.[/quote]

I know I keep banging on about this but it really matters. If you place your bass cab the wrong distance from the walls or floor you will make getting a good tone impossible. Here's a great excerpt about this:

"Boundary Cancellation throws another wrench into the cogs. If the bass cab is not in a corner, there will be a notch in the frequency response that is related to the distance from the cab to the wall:

2 feet will notch at ~140Hz
2.5' at ~112Hz
3' at ~95 Hz
3.5' at ~ 80Hz
4' at ~ 70Hz
5' at ~ 57Hz
6' at ~ 47Hz
7' at ~ 40Hz
8' at ~ 35Hz

So, no matter where you put the bass cab, try to place it within 2 feet of a room boundary (wall, floor, ceiling), or at least 8 feet from a boundary."

You can see from this that you were notching out somewhere around 70-95Hz due to your cab's distance from the back wall, which is a critical region for bass. That may have been disguised on stage by the hollow floor adding a load of boom in the ~150Hz region but would have been obvious out front.

If you're trying to fill a venue with bass you need to take advantage of boundary reinforcement - each boundary gives you another 3dB - brute force will not get you there (which is why outdoors gigs need much more PA support).

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29606' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:01 AM']I found on the smaller gigs i was pushing my SA450 to over half on the master and i seemed to just be getting more compression rather than volume.[/quote]

That's probably due to a combination of thermal power compression (voice coils getting hot and impedance thus increasing and therefore amp power output decreasing) and mechanical power compression (cones exceeding Xmax). No substitute for cubic inches!

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29606' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:01 AM']On the last gig i was actually running slightly quieter and still have more volume. At all the gigs i had enough volume but felt i needed a cleaner low end out front.[/quote]

So if you'd moved your rig into the room corner you'd have solved the lack of clean bottom problem. I know it's not always practical but I don't think people give these considerations the importance they should. I'm sure your rig could easily handle an audience of that capacity if approached correctly.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='29606' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:01 AM']The Auralex stuff looks good, can you recommended which one might do the trick?[/quote]

The GRAMMA is the standard. A cheaper and more portable solution is a length of Auralex PlatFoam, cut into two lengths the width of your cab. Use one for tilt, two for full isolation. Available from Studiospares. The GRAMMA is a piece of carpeted plywood supported by two lengths of PlatFoam.

Just to recap the room acoustics thing, bear this in mind:

A typical 2x10" will have sensitivity of 96dB and power handling of 200W (this are real world specs, not manufacturer's bs). This will give a max SPL of 119dB. A matching 4x10" will have 3dB more sensitivity and twice the power handling, giving another 6dB of max SPL - i.e. 125dB.

Take the 2x10" from just sitting on the floor and move it into the corner and you gain 3dB from the back wall and 3dB from the side wall. Max SPL is now 125dB - equal to the 4x10" when away from the walls. Now take the 4x10" and position it 4' from the back wall and 5' from the side wall - it now loses over 3dB from ~70Hz to ~57Hz, so it now has less max SPL than the correctly positioned 2x10".

This isn't just techy geeky theory - it matters in the real world!

Alex

There are two separate issues regarding 'coupling'. One is mechanical coupling where the speaker cab vibrates and thus causes the stage to vibrate like a giant speaker, with a resulting increase in output at the resonant frequencies of the cab/stage system. Basically big uncontrollable boom which is unlikely to sound good to anyone. GRAMMA pads, spikes, chairs, rubber car mats (!) and all sorts of vibration isolating things can help with this.

The other coupling is acoustic coupling - where multiple sound sources combine constructively to give more output. This can be multiple speakers operating in phase or multiple soundwaves (i.e. the output directly from the speaker plus the output bouncing off the back wall, or the side wall, or the floor, and so on) meeting in phase and thus combining beneficially.

Bear in mind that mechanical coupling can cause destructive interference if the stage vibrates out of phase with your speakers, thus cancelling out the sound at a certain frequency. Acoustic coupling (boundary reinforcement/cancellation) can also cause frequencies to be cancelled out really badly - when sounds 180 degrees out of phase meet you typically get a 24dB notch in the sound.

What were the room dimensions? Where was your cab positioned?

Alex

Righteous!

I wouldn't say his tone is lacking brightness, just a smidgeon too much bottom and too little midrange. But we're talking very small amounts!

Very reminiscent of Jaco/Joni...

Alex

Quality. Peavey make some great speakers at prices that make most boutique gear look silly and their latest stuff doesn't even suffer from the weight problem.

I strongly recommend stacking the cabs vertically whether using one or both.

Alex

Come on fretboard, damn you!

Alex

[quote name='chrisgil' post='29259' date='Jul 9 2007, 07:15 PM']I,m currently using the singers old SWR workingmans 15 combo which sounds great, so Im pretty sure the BB will do the job.[/quote]

Makes sense to me! The Eden and SWR default tone are pretty far removed, much more low midrange in the former. The BB should sound like a louder clearer Workingmans 15. At least it has wheels...

Alex

The most reliable amp is one that is running well within its limits, both in terms of power used vs max power and impedance driven vs minimum impedance. I'd also say that of all the gear out there Peavey seems the most indestructible.

Alex

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='28232' date='Jul 7 2007, 10:41 AM']I did a gig last night with my GK 2x10 but instead of putting it flat on the floor as per normal, I placed it in the vertical position mentioned here and it was really good! I am thinking about getting another one now so I can stack them as everyone has suggested.[/quote]

Excellent!

Alex

[quote name='chris_b' post='27865' date='Jul 6 2007, 12:18 PM']As I discovered, if you do find a really transparent head and cab, you'd better have a very good sounding bass.[/quote]

Yes and no. You better have a bass that you can get the sound you want from - that doesn't necessarily equate to a bass that sounds good to all people and with standard views.

[quote name='chris_b' post='27869' date='Jul 6 2007, 12:25 PM']....also, I think this transparent amp business is a bit of an "emperors new clothes"! What's so good about transparent? I'm sure my amp and cabs add all sorts of "gunk" to my sound, but I think it sounds great like that.[/quote]

That's great for you. I saw Ash on Thursday night (they rocked!) and their bassist is one I imagine would sound terrible through a transparent rig - through the Ampeg SVT 810 rig he produced a thunderous growl that filled exactly the right space. Conversely if I were to use his rig for my gigs I'd lose a huge chunk of my sounds and therefore my music - I need to be able to go from quasi classical guitar fingerpicking to full on reggae bottom just through plucking differently.

[quote name='chris_b' post='27871' date='Jul 6 2007, 12:27 PM']...... also, if you want transparent, make sure you get really good (expensive) transparent cables.[/quote]

All cables are very transparent. Really expensive cables come with a side order of bs and psychological trickery - the brain can easily convince itself that the sound is better when it is actually no different.

[quote name='lukeward2004' post='27903' date='Jul 6 2007, 01:40 PM']From experience, the EBS HD350 and its older brothers are supposed to be very clean and flat - my bass tutor has the HD 350 and it seems very transparent with no noticable tone colouring going on....[/quote]

I think the EBS heads have a similarly scooped out lower midrange and boosted treble to the SWR heads, that's certainly what I've heard. Clean but not flat.

[quote name='chris_b' post='27992' date='Jul 6 2007, 05:04 PM']The question I was asking is why is transparent such an important objective these days and why do so many people think transparent sounds "better"?[/quote]

It is only an important objective to those that want it. It may seem an unusually important objective to the online populace because it's not that easy to achieve, especially with speaker cabs, thus resulting in much discussion.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='28068' date='Jul 6 2007, 08:19 PM']My Focus just keeps going and going and going.... despite all I've thrown at it (which is a hell of a lot, believe me), it has never once gasped for breath...[/quote]

Sure but that doesn't mean it has equal power output under heavy load to an equally rated traditional head or power amp - the sensitivity of the Schroeder certainly gives it an easier time than if it were driving my rig. That's not to say I wouldn't like one though!

[quote name='kjb' post='28385' date='Jul 7 2007, 07:53 PM']I ended up buying an Epifani UL502...

...more than I paid from the Gallery[/quote]

Good choice! Great to hear that The Gallery did you a very good price. Maybe they should think about advertising slightly lower prices on their website?

FWIW my entire bass rig has come from the USA, at various times and through various routes, initially because Acmes are only sold direct from the US based manufacturer.

Alex

Don't do it! As Bill says the monitors will have nowhere near the output to cope.

Alex

Also there's plenty of freeware out there that can give you frequency response, distortion and other plots through pink noise testing and analysis.

Alex

[quote name='Paul_C' post='27747' date='Jul 6 2007, 08:22 AM']I'm regularly puzzled by this sort of remark, so don't think this is aimed at you in particular, but how do you know it's not colouring the sound of the bass ?[/quote]

I find the best test for this is to play CDs through it into some studio monitors or hi-fi speakers you know well.

Alex

I think your best bet is the AI Focus. MarkBass heads definitely have some preshape built-in and Epifani heads are SO expensive! I know a bassist in London who plays a Wal fretless through one with a UL112, and before the UL112 arrived he borrowed one of my Acmes - I got to try out both and was very impressed.

Personally I remain sceptical about the Focus having the power it claims but I'm sure it has more than enough power to push a UL310 to its limits.

Alex

[quote name='Kurt' post='27724' date='Jul 6 2007, 06:16 AM']I might put one of the new Celestions in it, have to see.[/quote]

The minimal specs I've seen for the new Celestion speakers suggest they're pretty rubbish for bass, the low Xmax in particular. I've heard of people changing the stock GS112 speaker to a DeltaLite II 2512 and being very impressed so that's the route I'd suggest taking.

Alex

[quote name='Bernmeister' post='27160' date='Jul 4 2007, 08:39 PM']i think he's sold the cabs now !!![/quote]

Well it would help for us to know that! I'd much rather have a WT800 in a rackbag and a lightweight 2x10" than any 70lbs+ combo.

Alex

You'll never catch me wholeheartedly recommending spending money unless there's a good reason to! Your 'my gear' link says you have a WT800 and Eden cabs - what's wrong with them?

Alex

My first bass, bought in 1996 for £200: 1990 Hohner Jack (since defretted, epoxied, stripped to bare wood, electronics change to single Bartolini J and MEC2 preamp)

My nice bass, bought in 1999 for £650 including flightcase, gigbag, Boss multi-FX, and a couple of Whirlwind leads - bargain!): 1987 Warwick Streamer (upgraded to 18V and preamp changed to OBP-3 plus extra toggle switches, just-a-nut II and ebony ramp added)

Until the RIM Custom arrives then that's the lot.

Alex

Whichever comes with someone else to carry it! I just do not see the point of combos that big and heavy - better off with a separate head and cab.

Alex

[quote name='The Funk' post='26958' date='Jul 4 2007, 01:09 PM']Excellent. I think I understand. Now I need to convince my guitarist to get a vertical 2x12 cab. If I can find a decent one for not much money it might not be that difficult.[/quote]

The turning a normal combo on its side thing works well too! My guitarist tends to use my drummer's old Sound City 2x12" at gigs, which I gather you can switch one of the speakers off, so he usually just uses the top driver:



It is a fantastic sounding beast even if half the features are broken (reverb, second channel, VU meter, etc)!

Alex