alexclaber

If I were you I'd turn the enhancer off and leave the EQ flat. I tend to use both pickups mixed equally when I deliberately want to sit further back in the mix due to reduced midrange, the rest of the time I solo one pickup or the other. Try to only tweak your EQ in the context of the band - and before tweaking your EQ see if changing how/where you're plucking or the pickup blend will get you the sound you need.

Also, if you're just using one cab remember to either raise it a couple of feet from the ground (not too far or you'll lose boundary reinforcement) and/or tilt it upwards towards your ears (but not so upwards that it's firing at the ceiling - you need the rest of the band to hear it too). This is because bass speakers get very directional once you get into the high mids and treble - the sound comes out as a narrow beam, so if it's not pointed at you you won't hear it!

Alex

P.S. And definitely take both cabs to gigs!

[quote name='Rumble' post='16094' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:55 AM']They're all flat to begin with. If anything I might knock a little of the treble off. The enhancer's around the 1 o'clock position.[/quote]

There's your problem, you're scooping a whole load of critical low mids and placing more demands on the lows and highs where the cabinet performs least well. So called 'enhance' knobs are best kept for playing solo - a dash of them (up to 9 or 10 o'clock) can work in a band if you have a bass with strong mids but more than that and you will get lost unless you have an amp with huge power in the lows.

Alex

[quote name='Rumble' post='16082' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:32 AM']However, there's no way I'm taking both to practices and, like last night, my head seems to struggle for juice when we start to pump it out a bit (and I'm not talking crazy volumes). I keep having to knock off the lower frequencies on the EQ so the output clipping light doesn't keep winking at me.[/quote]

What are your EQ (and particularly the enhancer) settings?

Alex

Groovy! Now this is where indecision strikes...

Alex

[quote name='JJTee' post='15248' date='Jun 10 2007, 08:20 PM']Incredible. Any guesses as to how much the whole lot is worth?[/quote]

I started counting the items and gave up halfway through. I'd say somewhere in excess of $200,000. Gosh!

Alex

[quote name='dood' post='15234' date='Jun 10 2007, 08:00 PM']However, something I found interesting too, is that I found (on two different occasions) markbass heads 'missing' top end clarity. a sort of roll off from just under1 Khz up toward what would be around 10K.[/quote]

dood, I know exactly what you mean. However, now that I've seen a load of plots of frequency response I've found that the majority of bass amps have a built-in treble boost, consequently the few that don't sound like they have the opposite.

Alex

[quote name='thumbo' post='15094' date='Jun 10 2007, 02:55 PM']Oh my! He's got more bass gear than the average bass shop.[/quote]

He's got more bass amplification than a very good bass shop!

I remember the days when he only had a few basses - an Thunderbird and a cheapish five, plus an upright - but a ton of EA cabs and a few Bergantino cabs. Then he got out of control! He did thin out the collection a while back but like any well timed pruning it grew again, and faster.

So which of his basses and rigs would you use if you could only have one?

I think I'd have his chambered MTD 5, the Millennia preamp and the Bergantino IP153 cabs. And that would be enough - any more than one bass and rig and I get indecisive!

Alex

I'm unconvinced by tuna on pizzas but I do like it raw and unsullied and will never refuse a rare tuna steak on the barbeque.

Alex

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='15075' date='Jun 10 2007, 02:22 PM']...bi-amping didn't produce an improvement in tone, it may have been more efficient etc...[/quote]

Biamping with cabs that are not specifically designed to be used with either an active or passive crossover is neither efficient nor a good idea. That's what I keeping trying but apparently failing to say.

Alex

[quote name='PaulMartin' post='14971' date='Jun 10 2007, 10:41 AM']Very interesting. So that's why they sound louder than other amps?[/quote]

Exactly!

Alex

A larger than lifesize photo:



Alex

Check out this website, there is a lot of good reading here:

[url="http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm[/url]

---------

My personal bugbear is the habit I repeatedly encounter of people trying something, hearing a qualitative result and thus deciding that X always equals Y without ever questioning why that might be. It is repeated all over the place in such quotes as:

"You can't slap on a P-bass"
"Fifteen inch speakers sound slow"
"The bigger the speaker the lower it goes"
"Rear ported cabs don't work properly without a wall behind them"
"You have to play behind the beat on reggae"
"Less is always more"
"You have to cut your mids when slapping"
"Picks are for guitarists only"
"Deep lows cause boom problems"
"Slap equals funk"

etc, etc...

WH, instead of saying you see no point to biamping because it didn't work for you in the past, consider what the frequency response plot of your rig would have been when run fullrange and run biamped. Also consider how the power handling changed when biamping. If the rig was the typical 10" for the top and 15" or 18" for the bottom, you biamping would cause the loss of a midrange hump where both cabs are working together (which gets you heard and sounds fat) and also reduce the power handling and max LF SPL as the 10"s are no longer contributing to the bottom. Bad idea.

MoJ, I'm not attacking you I'm just asking you to consider this less simplistically. Sound reproduction, like music, is not a tidy affair - you cannot just say fullrange is good, biamping is bad, just as you cannot say diatonic harmony is good, dissonance is bad.

There is a ton of information out there - when you want to know something google it, use wikipedia, ask questions on forums, but more importantly make an effort to understand WHY.

And FWIW, I do not biamp and never have. I am intending to biamp with my next rig but only because that is what will work best for those particular speakers. Each case is different.

Alex

[quote name='MoJ' post='14752' date='Jun 9 2007, 07:19 PM']Thats what Im thinking with regards to the O15/O10.5 + T39 debate.
At least there is flexibility with the two seperate cabs, and should I find after a while that I dont like the bi-amping sound...[/quote]

Just one thing, quickly. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE BIAMPING SOUND.

Alex

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']My view on bi-amping is as relevant as anyone else who has run an amp that has bi-amp capability and cabs that are readily available on the market today.[/quote]

In which case it remains irrelevant as we're not talking about readily available cabs!

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']I do fully accept your point that it [b]will[/b] be different with a custom pre/power dedicated cab(s) set-up.[/quote]

Well that's a start.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']I still however have reservations about the benefits of such a rig for the majority of gigging bassists![/quote]

This is a specific question for a specific requirement, not something that has to be all things to all people.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']If you are using decent PA support then you need to feed a full range signal to that and then it is dependent upon the PA as to how good the bi/tri-amp facility is.[/quote]

I'm sorry but what are you wittering on about?

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']So you are left with your rig acting as a monitor in which case best hope that the stage or area you set-up on is of sufficient area to get the benefit.[/quote]

And does this not hold true for any powerful rig? The rig I'm suggesting is of similar size and power to your Tech 610. Whether it is biamped or not is immaterial.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']If the bi-amp rig you run is to be the FOH sound that is to be heard by the public then I hope the rest of the bands equipment is up to the standard that yours is![/quote]

Since when did one member of the band having good equipment mean that everyone else's less nice equipment sounds bad?! What has this to do with biamping anyway?

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']I'm not trying to argue anyone out of trying bi-amping just because it didn't do it for me, far from it. I'm simply pointing out that a full range signal into one or 2 way cabs is absolutely fine for many of us;[/quote]

I'd have thought many of your previous rigs would have been fine for many of us - why did you change?

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']there may well be newbie bassists who read this thread and think that they have to start worrying about the benefits and pitfalls of bi-amping, when really they should be spending more time studying song craft or their instruments potential.[/quote]

Or there maybe newbie bassists thinking they need really expensive gear and wasting time researching that...

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']For a sector of the bass playing fraternity the issue of sound reinforcement is a valid and important issue and I 'know' that manufacturers are giving us short shrift with equipment, so long may we discuss how to achieve the holy grail of tone, maybe then good practise will creep into the equipment that we buy off the shop floor.[/quote]

I totally agree.

Alex

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='14803' date='Jun 9 2007, 09:20 PM']By "helpful EQ" do you mean the EQ section or the preamp's inherent colouration?[/quote]

Little Mark 250 with EQ set flat:



The preamp's inbuilt roll-off on the lows reduces both the demand on the power amp and on the speakers - which is a good idea as most cabs are hopeless in the true lows below 80Hz. On the other hand it may not be what you want when recording or feeding a PA system. Or if you use cabs that do go low.

Alex

QSC PLX2 -04 models weigh 13lbs and put out up to 1800W. -02 models weigh 21lbs and put out up to 3600W.

There isn't much market for super lightweight lower powered amps because once you've got them in a rack and you're carting PA speakers around you might as well take a bit more weight and power.

I wonder how the Markbass amps would perform under heavy loads without the helpful EQ built into the preamps? Very clever engineering though, to find the balance of cost, weight and tone - certainly a step ahead of the rest of the market.

Alex

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14556' date='Jun 9 2007, 11:16 AM']I alluded to this earlier on in the thread. I've tried it and didn't like but that is my opinion... fine.

However, more importantly you are effectively going down the route that Dood has studied which is a PA system for bass! Does your present or near future requirements necessitate this kind of set-up? If not, for the kind of money you will end up spending you could build some of BFM's cabs (for a modular rig) and get a top quality full range head.[/quote]

I don't think your opinion on biamping is actually very relevant because although you've tried it a number of times you've never tried it with cabs that are designed for it! Furthermore I don't think Dood has really studied the PA system for bass thing - he's thought about it and gone with standard bass cabs again...

I think the idea of an Omni 10.5 and Titan 39 is an excellent one. For quieter rehearsals or gigs with full PA support the Omni 10.5 should be loud enough as a fullrange cab, whilst you can add the Titan 39 and run the rig biamped with a ~150Hz crossover point for louder situations or where you're providing all the bottom. Do this with a rack preamp, crossover and power amp, and buy used and you should be able to assemble an awesome rig for very little money. I gather Thumper (who now resides on finnbass) has a similar rig in progress.

Although I can understand people thinking that a 'top quality full range bass head' will give a better sound, both live and recorded, they really are designed down to a price and weight and both rack preamps and power amps tend to perform significantly better on noise, distortion, clarity and real world power.

The really great thing about biamping, particularly when you have a low crossover point (as in an Omni 15 or even more so an Omni 10.5 plus Titan 39) is that you maintain a constant crossover point and slope regardless of power compression (which changes the voice coil impedance and thus the crossover characteristics with a passive crossover) AND when you run out of power in the lows (which always happens first) you just get compression and distortion on them (which to most ears sound likes punchier bass) and the midrange and treble remains clean and clear.

Alex

[quote name='Aussiephoenix' post='14190' date='Jun 8 2007, 01:49 PM']Thats my point though... POWER CONDITIONERS DON'T do that. VOLTAGE REGULATORS do.

Its a Quick Lok SR-1500 (its hard to find info on the web about it.)

I tell ya, I was amazed when I started using it, cause its not until then that you realize how much the voltage actually shifts and changes in places you thought "safe".

I constantly see the leds change between 220 - 240 and in some places its been as low as 180 and as high as 250v.

Even though the amps etc may be ready for that, having a CONSTANT 230v (in my case) feeding the amp has got to be a lot healthier than having too little to too much voltage circling through the components right?[/quote]

Ah, I see. However although it may be useful in Portugal, I really doubt that it would be that beneficial in the UK, where the mains supply is more stable and also centred around 240V, not 220V (although we're all alledgedly on 230V all that changed is the european standard, not the actual voltages).

I'm still curious though - how much does it weigh and how much current can it supply?

Alex

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='14158' date='Jun 8 2007, 01:04 PM']Agreed.
I supposed we no choice but to pay it if we want the gear.[/quote]

Thus you have to question why you want the gear and if you can get similar performance from either DIY or less heavily marked up gear (Carvin, Avatar and Acme for instance, as they all sell direct)?

Alex

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='10243' date='May 31 2007, 10:42 PM']By the way, i have been told the driver is worth about 100 euro's. make me wonder why the cab costs so much.[/quote]

Because people are willing to pay that much! There is a hell of a lot of mark-up on this kind of gear, somewhere in the order of 100% by the manufacturer and then another 100% by the retailer. Divide the selling price by four and that's what it would cost to self build (assuming their ability to bulk buy negates the lack of labour costs for DIY).

Alex

[quote name='Aussiephoenix' post='13517' date='Jun 7 2007, 11:47 AM']1 - It does both. a little light goes on saying what the incoming voltage is, but the output voltage is regulated to the machine's standards, in my case, living in Europe, 230V.[/quote]

Interesting - few power conditioners do that. Which model is it?

Alex

I've decided to build my own active crossover, following these plans:

[url="http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm[/url]

But there's tons of cheap and active rackmount ones - Rane make some fine examples - that you could use between preamp and power amp.

Alex

Get the job but see if you can do 5 rather than 6 days a week. Don't blow all the cash on designer label bass gear, stick some of it in a savings account and spend some of it on upgrading bits of your rig that you really need to but only once you truly know what you want. You could even invest in some bass lessons!

It's all too easy to see what the pros use and think "I need to have that to be a proper bassist". Remember that many of them only use that gear because they get given it free or heavily discounted. Keep learning about gear and you'll make better choices, spend less money and sound better - especially once you understand that wattage is one of the least important of all the specs on speaker cabs!

Alex

[quote name='pete.young' post='13183' date='Jun 6 2007, 06:05 PM']I have an old HH Bass Baby 15" cab, which is very well made, nice and compact
if I didn't want to carry bigger and heavier cabs, but only rated at 100W. It goes
against the grain to accidently damage the driver by shoving too much power
through it, and I was thinking about putting a more highly rated driver into it.[/quote]

I'd leave it as it is - no 15" I've modelled in that size is any good and although it may only be rated at 100W it'll handle much larger amps. Listen and you'll hear when it isn't happy.

If you simply have to do something, try a DeltaLite 2510-II - that's not a bad volume for a 10" and add a port to tune it to 45Hz.

I do wonder though how much this HH cab weighs - my experience of them is that if it's well made it's also heavy which makes neo drivers a bit pointless.

Alex

[quote name='parker_muse' post='13126' date='Jun 6 2007, 04:42 PM']Alex, that sounds great, how can i do that?

Can you get me a materials list for that somewhere?[/quote]

Would you like me to build it for you whilst I'm at it? Ah, the joys of delegating coursework.

I haven't found local sources for any of the parts yet but here's a brief summary:

3mm (1/8") plywood. Baltic birch would be nice but whatever you can get. Make sure it's flat and knot/void free on inspection - try a local timber yard or cabinet maker.
12mm expanded polystyrene. This is used in the building trade for insulation in houses. Places like Wickes or Travis Perkins should have it, hopefully.
Fibreglass roll and 2-pack epoxy resin. This is used by DIY boat builders so that's the kind of thing to google.
Aluminium edges and stacking corners. Places that supply flightcase parts or similar should have this.
Speaker grill. That's another challenge - I found a place that does s/s wire mesh. Grills add a lot of weight.
Handles, connectors, speaker etc - Maplins, Blue Aran, Speakerstore.eu, Adam Hall, etc. It takes quite a bit of searching to find the best prices.

Don't forget to download WinISDpro and model the response of the speakers you're considering in different cab volumes and tunings until you get the response you want. If you dig into the t/s specs more deeply and/or include a crossover maybe you can get some physics or electronics coursework points whilst you're at it!

On an aside, if you're looking to build two different cabs and want to know how they'll respond when played simultaneously, you have to treat the magnitude and phase as a complex number, add the two and then convert back to real numbers. Ask your maths teacher about that, it should keep them talking for hours...

Alex