mike257

49 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Thanks Mike, excellent post as ever.

Could I ask whereabouts you're based and are you playing bass in a band or mainly focusing on the sound engineering side of things?

I'm based up in sunny Liverpool. Sadly no time to play in a band these days, as much as I miss it. I'm a tour manager/production manager and sound engineer, so spend a lot of time on the road. Doesn't fit in well with making it to rehearsals every week!

37 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Mike - lots of wisdom there, thanks!

 

My mate's band has a silent stage set up with an electronic drum kit and I'm pretty sure that they are all using IEMs, rather than floor monitors, so your stage volume point won't apply in their case.

Acquired through getting it wrong plenty of times on the long road to occasionally getting it right 🤣

Interesting to hear they're still having big problems with feedback when running a silent stage with IEM. 

What I'd be looking at is:

How loud are they trying to run their PA

How big a space are they trying to fill

Where is the PA positioned relative to the mics

Where are the mics positioned relative to the PA and to any acoustically reflective surfaces in the room

Although their stage volume isn't an issue in terms of backline levels, if they're trying to play a "loud" show, they could still be getting in their own way with the mix. The Alto speakers are definitely at the cheap and cheerful end of the PA world, and whilst I'd imagine they'd do ok as purely vocal amplification over a band playing through backline at a sensible gig level, they're being asked to do a lot of work in carrying the whole band on a silent stage and probably being pushed beyond what they're really capable of. That's a lot of dynamic information and transients, and a much more constant load on the amps and drivers than purely pushing vocal, so they'll likely be running at their limits. 

As you mention, mic choice could help too, and the trusty old 58 isn't the mainstay it once was. There's plenty of options out there with a tighter pickup pattern. 

There's also the usual things about vocal performance to consider - is the singer projecting and giving out a reasonable volume, or are they whisper quiet? Are they on top of the mic or backing off/singing at a distance from it?

EDIT: Just to add - I've just taken a look at the Zoom L12, as it's not a desk I'm familiar with. I see there's a one-knob compressor on each channel. Not sure how much of that they're using on the vocal, but if they are doing, that could also do more harm than good in this situation with regards to achievable level before feedback. If they're using it on the vocals, I'd suggest dialling it back or fully bypassing it and seeing if that helps them out. Usual vocal mixing tips apply too - making sure the high pass filter (labelled "Low Cut" on the Zoom) is engaged on the vocal mics, and making judicious and careful use of the channel EQ. 

2 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Can’t help with that, but i do have question as well to those that do. 
Ive been shocked at how much the vocal mics pick up. A lot more than i thought. Since i started recording our gigs as multitrack i get pretty much a full mix just from the live mics on stage. One mix is only used for a few songs but left on so the FOH balance is consistent. 
My thinking (probably wrong) is if i used a noise gate wouldn’t the FOH volume change each time someone sings. I realise mic placement comes in to play, but each time someone sings the on stage sound also goes through FOH. Could this cause a bit of pumping out front volume wise? 
Probably over thinking this. 
 

This is one reason I've always avoided using Optogates on vocal mics. You can't avoid spill on stage, it's going to be there (to some degree) no matter what. I remember having a real eye-opener with it years ago when doing a mix of a live multitrack from a band I'd been touring with that had five open vocal mics on stage. 

I had all of the instrumental elements sounding great, really clean and punchy. As soon as the vocal mics came in to play, there was so much stage spill that everything went to bits, but cutting them in and out sounded so unnatural because all the spill still came back in with the vocal and changed how everything sounded. 

I ended up going back to the drawing board with that mix, starting with all the vocals open, and building everything around that to sound natural. 

I generally start a live soundcheck with all vocal mics open now, because that stuff is going to be in there no matter what you do, so you have to work around it and factor it in. 

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Getting back to the more mundane topic of compact desks...

 

One of my mates has been struggling with the issue of getting feedback with his PA system: Alto TS310 tops and ELX200P subs, Zoom L12 desk and Shure SM58 mics, which is limiting the amount of FoH volume his set up is able to deliver.

 

He's pretty much done everything recommended and nicely summarised in this excellent note, which I'd recommend to anyone encountering feedback issues: Preventing Microphone Feedback in a Live Sound PA

 

The one thing he's not done on that list, that he and I have picked up is yet another capability on the A&H CQ series, is applying a noise gate to channels. I was thinking that it might make sense to apply a noise gate to all the mic channels (including the drum mics) plus the guitar, given pedal board hum, and maybe the bass too? Is this this something that other folk are doing as standard?

I only tend to gate channels that need it for a sonic reason. I'll usually gate kick drums and toms to get a tight, controlled sound but I'll rarely gate a snare because you lose a lot of the expressive detail in the playing - ghost notes etc. I'll leave toms open too if the musical style benefits from it and the tuning/sound of the drum allows for it. 

I'm always wary of gates on sources with a wide dynamic range because it's so easy to cut off things you want to keep. Pedalboard hum is something better fixed at source. 

They also wouldn't be part of my approach to prevent feedback. A gate only closes when there's no signal above the threshold. If you have open mics feeding back when they're not even being presented with a signal that would open any gate you set, you've got bigger problems to address in how that system has been set up. 

I've had a quick look at the article you linked. It mentions a couple of keys points - positioning of the speakers/wedges relative to the mic, mic choice, proximity of the mic to the source - but it doesn't mention what is often the biggest issue, which is the general stage volume the vocal is competing with. If you're trying to get a vocal clearly heard over a band, and you're getting in to feedback territory trying to do that, the band might be too loud for the space they're in. One of the key elements of putting a good mix together is understanding that if you can't hear something, it's not always about turning that thing up, it's about making a space for it to sit in. Turning something else down is often the answer!

11 hours ago, silverfoxnik said:

Hi Chris, 

 

I don't know about the legal ramifications of this and it's potential long-term impact on the music business, but the very fact that there's such a thing as 'diss tracks' in this world makes me despair at the state we're in. 

 

Compare and contrast The Beatles and Brian Wilson spurring each other on to make even greater music back in the 60s, to this pair of overrated, under-talented (if there is such a word) ego-fuelled twats! 

 

Instead of arguing about how big their reproductive organs are, they should be working together to take on monolithic record companies and Spotify to get fairer deals for all music creators. 

 

This sums up just about everything that's wrong with today's music industry and some of the artists that exist in it.... 

I'm pretty sure Lennon's "How Do You Sleep" is the original diss track, aimed squarely at his ex-bandmate!

5 hours ago, russ.c said:

How can this be? Neither are classed as actual music IMO, it's just noise.

 

Or maybe I'm getting old.

Yes, yes you are. 

You can get water based or oil based haze, both of which behave differently with different types of smoke detectors. 

In touring venues, it's normal practice to isolate the smoke alarms in the room during the show, so that haze/smoke can't trip them, and that's written in to risk assessments and safety plans. 

If you're going in to function rooms, pubs, whatever else, they may not be set up to do that and you'll likely meet some resistance. 

Well, after a lovely tour in October with a full crew of top-notch people, we're currently back to the two-man setup on a European support run for a few weeks.

After migrating the band on to IEMs for the UK headline tour, where we had FOH and monitor engineers with a dLive at both ends, I've had to figure out how we make that work in our stripped down setup to keep the production value up for the lads on stage. 

We're back on my SQ5 for this tour and we're squeezing every last drop of it's capabilities out of it now. Freed up a few buses in our FOH engineer's existing showfile and I'm now running four stereo IEM mixes and four wedge mixes from an iPad (whilst tour managing and guitar teching 🤣).

Not too many compromises had to be made, all things considered. We've managed to keep the on stage shout mics integrated for comms between band and crew, and I have a spare IEM system fed from a matrix that I can send any mix to if we have an RF issues on someone's frequency. My IEMs are fed by the solo bus that the FOH and I are sharing between us for mid-show listening. It's taken some shuffling around but it's working really well and is pretty dialled in after the first week of shows 

I'm at 98 so far this year, 24 left to go in the diary! 

On 10/10/2024 at 07:13, vbance said:

I did think about popping over to the desk to try say hi....maybe another time👍

Here's a better sized image.

 

Cracking photo!

I wasn't at the sound desk for this one - I've been doubling up as tour manager and backline tech for most of the year but I've got a full crew out for the headline tour so just wearing my tour manager hat and not pushing faders or wrangling guitars at the moment. Mostly swearing at Excel sheets and crying at the amount of emails in my inbox 🤣

On 06/10/2024 at 20:43, vbance said:

Wunderhorse, Bristol 02 Academy....this band never fail to deliver.

 

 

I'll show them that photo, Jacob getting some serious height on that jump there 🤣 

Glad you enjoyed the show, sorry I didn't get to say hello! 

3 hours ago, VTypeV4 said:

 

Waves Y96K card for the DM2K just before installation earlier today..

Didn't even know they did a Waves card for it! How's that working out?

Sadly no mixing desk at all for me still - it's been a two man crew all year on my current gig (me as TM/tech, and our FOH engineer) but heading out on a proper touring run for three weeks with a full team, so I can just wear my TM hat. 

Just wrapped two days of production rehearsals, currently 2:20am on the tourbus  having a wild night with my laminator and a pack of chocolate hobnobs on our way to Nottingham Rock City. It's all glamour, this job 🤣

On 29/09/2024 at 12:44, vbance said:

Wunderhorse at Bristol 02 this coming Saturday. Seen them on number of occasions and still go back for more.

Sounding lovely in rehearsals today. You're in for a treat!

3 hours ago, Geek99 said:

@mike257 there are some @julietgreen @CiciBass to make a few 

 

despite being a girl-dad I welcome their presence 

I'm not sure what it says for how welcoming a space the forum is for them that Juliet hasn't logged in for two years, and Cici hasn't for almost a year!

3 hours ago, Bleat said:

It would be nice to see some input from some young female bass players. 5 pages in and all I see is grumpy men arguing. 😆

Thus proving my point that @Misdee seemed so affronted by. 

Many corners of the music industry are not welcoming places for young women. More visibility of artists (like Ms DeTiger) that they can see themselves in will give them the confidence to be more present in those spaces, and help build the belief that they belong and can build a career. 

This forum is full of grumpy old men. There are few, if any, young female bass players here and it's no surprise given some of the commentary here.

Thankfully, the majority of members, grumpy as we all are, appear to be on the sensible side of this conversation. 

11 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Like a lot of people nowadays, you automatically equate equality with virtue, and inequality with injustice. 

 

I've worked in live touring for over a decade and by and large, it's an absolute sausage-fest and not representative of the population as a whole. 

When I've spoken to young female techs and musicians, one of the big things I hear about is the lack of role models, or I hear that having a role model/mentor who they could relate to was a hugely important part of their journey. When I hear incredibly talented and capable women telling me they're leaving the industry because they're finding it hard to thrive in such a "boys club", it tells me something is seriously wrong. 

Having people (like Blu - although I hadn't come across her before this thread) who are visible and setting that example is, as I said, a positive thing. 

Your reply suggests you don't think encouraging people from more diverse backgrounds in to the creative industries is a good thing. Why is that?

42 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Anyhow, what struck me most when I watched the clip was not the music but more how she speaks and what she says. She wants to "inspire and empower" and for her bass to help people "live their best lives". This is the nonsense that young people thrive on nowadays, and a huge burden for them to take upon themselves. No wonder they are miserable.

There's a real, tangible gender inequality in the music industry (speaking as someone who works in it) and the more positive role models there from all demographics and backgrounds who can actively and visibly use their presence to show young people who might not otherwise see the creative industries as a viable career route that it's actually possible to follow your dreams and make a living out there, the better. 

If a bunch of young girls see Blu amongst the sea of typical blokes with guitars and think "maybe there's a space for me here after all?", then that's a positive thing. Doesn't sound like nonsense to me.

As a dad of two daughters, and having given work and experience opportunities to many of my wife's students when she spent 10 years teaching in another male-dominated creative industry, I'm acutely aware how important it is for people to have role models they can relate to, and the difference that can make in how they perceive their ambitions and their chances of success. 

Honestly, it's sad to see such a negative reaction to someone trying to put positivity out in what they do. 

I made use of some of that dead space on the rack ears with mine. Fitted it in a Gear4Music shallow 3u, drilled out the rack ears for a Powercon input and thru connector, put a 13a socket on the front so you could charge your tablet from it (pictured with a USB charger left in), and a 13a socket in the back for the router. All the electrical connections were made with Wago blocks inside a junction box velcroed to the back of the mixer. 

Router was a little TP Link Nano, also fixed to the back of the mixer with heavy duty velcro. 

The rack case had a zipped pouch in one of the lids, so kept the power cable, mini jack cable, and a cheap Android tablet all in there so you had everything to run it in one box. 

Worked a treat!

On 20/08/2024 at 21:27, VTypeV4 said:

 

HSL's good old M32 once again doing a sterling job at Bloodstock. Like most by now, I'm a little bored with the interface and graphics but I can't fault them at all really - they sound great, have more than enough toys to do 95% of jobs and are nearly as reliable as a Yamaha. I also had the pleasure of talking to the lovely PR ladies from Midas which was super - I even got some T-Shirts and a hoodie! 🥰

 

 

 

The ML recieved a bit of love recently, too - I removed the meterbridge and had Kev (K. Edwards Electronics) replace all the bulbs with LEDs. It looks like new! Honestly, I've even convinced myself it sounds better now. 😅

 

 

And the classic 02R here working on a live recording from home. The recording in question is a band I work with frequently - Captain Stingray who play afro / dub / world / reggae originals. There's now 9 in the band so quite a channel count and it also marked the first recording to be taken from the M32 at The Rigger. ❤️

 

I've got NHC coming up again plus some more Kirk Brandon dates in September. I'll lay good money on the statement that not one of the shows will be using an 02R (or even a DM) but hopefully I'll see and use plenty of fun stuff along the way. 👍

Love to see you're out and about keeping busy mate!

Not much mixing console action from me of late. My regular gig taking up most of the year is tour managing and not getting near a console. Did a weekend of Euro festivals - Lowlands and Pukkelpop - some long and challenging travel days but a cracking couple of gigs. 

I did drop in for my last show of the summer looking after monitors for Peter Hook at the weekend, which is always a pleasure. Another nice Digico package from Solotech on this one. 

I was production manager for last year's ATG. Sadly not there this year, but it's such a great festival (as is it's mildly less mathy counterpart, 2000trees). Run as a real labour of love by people who are driven by their love of the music there. 

13 hours ago, Owen said:

I love this thread

It's pretty much just 13 years of me and Matt nerding out over audio gear, I didn't think anyone else even ventured in 🤣

A really fun one today....

Radio 1 session at Maida Vale with one of my touring clients. Always love coming through here, can't help but think about the list of names that have walked through these doors before us. Even found a video today of Nirvana set up in the exact same spots as us in this room, back in 1990. 

A great afternoon tracking, followed by a fun mix session with myself, the band's FOH engineer, and the lovely team from the Beeb, on their 72-frame SSL 4000G.

The session goes out on the Jack Saunders show next Tuesday!

On 31/07/2024 at 12:22, Len_derby said:

Thank you! I need to find out, now, if the current filters are compatible with the plugs I had made in 2005.

Any audiologist or custom IEM/earplug manufacturer will advise that because your ears continue to grow throughout your life, after 4/5 years your fit won't be sealing properly and you'll need new ones. 

If they're 19 years old, I'd definitely look at getting a fresh pair!

7 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

The guys from indie rock band Embrace used to sell double glazing between albums and tours apparently.

 

My brother used to work with Roni Size’s bass player (he was a film editor as well - what a career!)

 

Nothing but respect for people who take this path.

I can well believe it - I know a couple of the Embrace guys, and I've toured with other bands who came up around that scene/that time who are all working other jobs and fit occasional bursts of recording and touring in around it. One frontman from a successful/recognisable UK indie band I've worked with runs an asbestos removal company!

Across the majority of the music industry, you make better money as touring crew than you do as a member of the band. Obviously a successful band stands to do much better in the long run when all the long term income streams like publishing etc are taken in to account, but a lot of artists never hit the point where it's that big an earner. You'd be surprised at the size of venues a band can be touring and still not be earning enough to do without having an additional source of income.