SumOne

^^

I do agree. My gig pedalboard now only includes about £300 of  boring utilitarian Boss Compact pedals (TU3, LS2,  LMB-3, BB-1X) , and I'm considering if I should just with the TU-3 as my Amp has compressor/limiter, drive and EQ.  Playing in a band that does pub gigs really doesn't need much more than a few solid and reliable utility pedals.  

But then again, mucking about with differnt pedals is sort of a hobby withing a hobby, and this part of a forum is for people that are into discussing them. We could just as well say there is no point in considering different string choices, or amps, or cabs, or basses, as no audience member will really tell much difference. And we certainly don't need to spend time discussing the nuances of those things on a forum. Better than doing work though!

13 hours ago, Gareth Hughes said:

I’m stumped at the thought this thread, or similar on Talkbass, could be considered trolling. It’s talking about effects. Given that a main motivator to getting effects is to obtain a certain sound we’re chasing, I keep thinking that, after basses, amps, effects, etc there should be a section on how to get a certain sound.  Chances are you might be able to get it with something you already have. That would certainly keep me on the site a lot longer than just checking out stuff for sale that I don’t need.

I'm not offended by it, but it's the equivalent of going onto a car modding forum and saying 'why do you want to mod your car and talk about it on a forum? Think about it - what you have probably already does what you need, be the antithesis of this forum'.

Talkbass Effects forum apparently had a lot of people posting on it to inform everyone that they don't need effects pedals. 'it's all in the fingers' and all that. 

I think most people know that searching through effects pedals, amps, cabs, Basses etc. and discussing them on a forum isn't essential to making a decent bass sound at a gig. Personally though, I quite enjoy trying out slightly different sounding overdrive or even useless things like envelope filters and seeing opinions of other users.... I've yet to find a use for them in the Reggae/Ska or rock bands I've been in though and I'm quite aware of that. 

Fair, it's kind of true enough. But Talkbass effects forum says posting on the effects forum along the lines of 'I don't need effects' is trolling. Basschat is an all together cooler place, but still, it's like going on a Darts forum to announce that you don't like Darts and that others shouldn't either. 

Perhaps I enjoy using and discussing useless pedals to try and meet that unnecessary 2%, and that's my call?! 

I give them a good amount of Slap/Pop and general rough treatment and tune sharp then flat to stretch/un-stretch, that all seems to speed up the dulling, and I never clean them.......although all of that is perhaps a bit pointless as just rolling off the tone control seems to do most of that, especially played at volume through Amp/Cab and with some EQ. As it's easier to remove brightness through EQ than to add it perhaps it's best to keep strings bright?

Or use Tapewounds. 

I've used most of the main DAWs and Ableton had been my least favourite. Reaper is my favourite right now (so much so that I actually paid for it, which isn't necessary), it's much more intuitive, low CPU use, compatible with every VST I've tried with it, easy yo drag and drop and bpm detect audio. But I haven't been doing quite what you want do with it so perhaps Ableton it's good for that, I'd give it a go on the free trial but also try Reaper and the others (most have some sort of free trial). 

1 hour ago, Reggaebass said:

Hi SumOne , there’s some  info on here about the releases you might find interesting, lots of other links to look through too at the top, I like the one on the early labels 

https://www.downbeat-special.co.uk/truthsandrights.html

Nice! 

(and just realised my auto type changed 'Truth and Rights' to 'Truth wave Rights' for some reason 🤨 babylon getting to it! 

^^^

Thanks, I'll look into figuring out how they've been MIDI mapped. The thing that struck me as odd is that none of them automatically assign over as expected, so either all of the files I've got (from quite a few different sources) have been customised, or something I've got set in EZ Drummer or my DAW (Reaper) is messing with them. None of the files have any text documents to say how they have been mapped, so I've assumed they've used some sort of standardised mapping.

MIDI Drums Question: I have a lot of MIDI Drum files , but when dragged directly into EZ Drummer 2 they do not map to the expected drum sounds. So it's a time consuming process to properly map them.

Unless all the files I have are incorrectly labelled  (which is unlikely as the are from different sources) then it seems there's something I'm doing wrong. Any ideas?

Perhaps something needs needs changing on EZ Drummer settings, to put them on MIDI Channel 10 for it to correctly Map? https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_gm.htm 

6 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

I have no horse in that race - it was pure Sunday morning wondering and trying to work out why!

Apparently it's more difficult to do with Android as there are many different phone manufacturers  - although on the same operating system there are still compatability differences, rather than just Apple. 

46 minutes ago, Cheeto726 said:

I want to master the instrument and eventually gig 

I gig with a couple of bands, one plays well known rock covers, including: Led Zeppelin 'whole lotta love', AC/DC 'highway to hell', Free 'All right now', The Cult ' She sells sanctuary'. Give them a go, honestly it doesn't take mastering the bass to play a lot of the most popular gigging songs. 

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

Ordered a rather fetching shirt from this lovely company. It arrived today and along with a sticker (I like stickers) there was something, small, flat and made of metal.

Well, we Blacks are well known for quick thinking, and for me it was the work of a moment to deduce that this must be a business card. The world's most expensive one at that.

I showed my mum and she immediately recognised my error. This, my child, she said in the patient tones of one who knows, is a vital component of an effect pedal. You should return it forthwith.

What do you think Basschat? Should I? Or, should I perhaps break out the solder (or sodder if you're from the US of A) and have a go?

JPTR include them when you buy a pedal too. So your only viable option is to have a go! 

If you asked me when I was 18 = yes. 

If you ask me now (44 with 2 kids) = no. 

A band rehearsal mid-week and a local gig at the weekend is what I do, and that's about as much time I want to put to it. No finance pressure means it's just for fun. I've got a 9-5 that's interesting enough and reliable to pay my bills without me stressing. 

There's some ambitious band talk about getting bigger, it's nice to have the ambition I guess, but I'd perhaps have to quit if there was much more travel and time being spent on it and more pressure. 

I don't know about the 8010, but I use KRK Rokit 8 which are probably equivalent and they seem plenty of sub for the Bass heavy stuff I DJ and produce at home (dub, Reggae, Drum n Bass, dubstep) and I know a few others in my situation that use the same. 

If the 8010s aren't producing the kick well then are people going to need to listen with a sub to hear it well? Listeners will often be using crappy speakers, so if anything, I'd try to mix stuff and get it sounding good through a variety of bad speakers. 

^^ 

The trouble with Thomann orders/returns to the UK is a recent order took 8 days to get to me (mostly due to customs delays). And I sent it back for a refund 17 days ago and have yet to get the money refunded (again, this seems due to customs). But yeah, it is free to return, which places like Andertons don't do, I think they quite cheekily try to charge you £20 for them to arrange courier collection for return,  seems a bit of an earner for them when you're trying to return something that hasn't lived up to expectations.

£300 on a pedal for me would go on a Boss RE 202, it'd probably be a bit useless with Bass, good for dubbing up everything else though. 

I'm in a 8 piece, which has the full PA, Lights, Banners, big drum kit, multiple mics, wireless stuff etc. We joke that packing/unpacking is the worst part of gigging, but it isn't really a joke. It's like the circus coming to town. Personally, I think it's the biggest downside of being in a bigger band. I'm depping in a smaller rock band and the relative ease of set-up/pack down is a real benefit. 

If the amount of unnecessary gear a band member brings becomes an issue I think it needs to be said 'you want those extra lights etc, you set it up and pack it down as the rest of the band thinks it's unnecessary'. 

I've been listening to a lot of Johnny Osbourne lately (ahead of seeing him and Horace Andy live soon). 

Truth wave Rights being one of my favourite reggae tunes, but 'Never Stop Fighting' is a great album, these first 3 tunes especially:

(the scientist dubs are also really good, on 'Scientist Wins the world cup') 

There is another Mooer thread in the effects forum where I wrote this: 

Sort of reluctantly, I'm going to return the P2 to Thomann while I can still get a full refund. (side note, I returned it about 2 weeks ago and haven't been refunded yet. This reminds me I need to chase up). 

It is a good bit of kit, but is quite expensive at £209 and isn't really better than the Nux Mighty Plug (that I already have) for home practise, and although I only have a simple pedal setup for live use it can't replace pedals like the LS-2 for switching between two basses, or a stompable tuner/mute (unless getting the bluetooth footswich - in which case cost and size starts to creep up and then it seems why not get a cheap multi fx with footswitches), so it would be an addition to my pedalboard rather than replacing it.

It would be good as a pocket sized all-in-one pedalboard to take to band practise, but something like the Zoom B1 Four can do similar and save about £130  (allbeit a bit bigger, needing batteries/power supply, and no bluetooth to stream music). 

If I had a lot of spare ££ I'd keep it, but for me it just isn't adding enough to what I already have to justify keeping it.

Hopefully updates give it some Bass Amp/Cabs (although I find Amp sims are basically EQ points and a tone/gain levels of drive - so can be done with EQ and Drive effects blocks, and Cabs can be added as IRs), better tuner reading of a open E, some access to the drum loops/metronome directly on the device, and a low battery warning.

Gigged with it last night (without the M Audio hub) and all was good, 1/8" headphone out of the Laptop to a 1/4" connector and into a DI box for the long XLR to mixer.

I'll probably return the M Audio hub, might get one of those other DAC DIs at some point though. 

23 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I don't so how sending the audio via USB is going to be any lower latency than using the headphone out sockets of your laptop. If you are getting noticeable latency in your current set then the problem lies elsewhere. I'd be looking at the USB bus architecture. Does Windows have a utility like the Mac that shows you how your devices are connected, and which bus each device is on? Remember that separate USB sockets do not necessarily mean separate USB buses. Also with a laptop there are plenty of built-in devices which will share the same buses as the USB sockets and be stealing valuable band width; such as keyboard, trackpad, the built-in WiFi and Bluetooth adaptors, Webcam, any card readers etc. I would start by disabling all of these except the keyboard and track pad and see if that improves the latency. Even on my Mac where the OS is designed to give audio and MIDI priority over non-timing critical events, I still have to have WiFi and Bluetooth turned off otherwise the computer is constantly polling its surroundings for devices to connect to. At a gig that is potentially every audience member's mobile phone!

 

IMO the form factor of the M Audio AIR | Hub looks horrible. I'm sure it would be fine in the studio where it's hardly ever moved, but at a gig it will be a lump that you'll need to find room for. What sort of stand are you planning to put all of these equipment on? Because you will need a stand. You'll also need to use the external PSU as I doubt the USB sockets on your laptop will be able to provide enough power for everything connected. That's another lead, mains and mains socket that you'll require. The problem I have found with small devices is that they tend to get pulled about by the cables attached to them, and can be a definite problem if not all the cables attach on the same panel as in this case.I'd look for something a bit heavier that has all the connections made on the same face.

All good advice, I'll make sure I turn things off and look into the USB bus architecture.

Saying that though, I don't know if I need to change much of that as latency isn't really an issue I've noticed, the main reason for getting the interface is I dont trust the flimsy 1/8" laptop headphone output for live use as it seems the part that can easily get disconnected/damaged. Also, the 8 piece band I'm in has a lot of wires and wireless signals causing interferance so it's best to avoid un-balanced cables where possible.  

Bypassing the laptop soundcard/headphone out by using a USB out of the laptop to an outboard interface that then sends out audio via 1/4" or XLR seems a sturdier solution as far as the connector go, that's my main reason for getting it. A bonus being that online stuff seems to say that interfaces tend to have better audio quality and lower latency than using the laptop (or tablet) soundcard and headphone output (as they are made with more expense/focus to achieve their specific task). 

I've now realised there are differences between what are generally referred to as 'interface' (usually for guitar/mic audio conversion to digital: Analog-Digital Convertor ADC),  'Digital-Analog Converter (DAC) DI Box' ', and 'external soundcard' (ADC and DAC - but the market for these seems to be for gamers using these for headphones/mics, rather than live audio). 

As far as I can tell, things like the Focusrite Scarlett are primarily designed for ADC (guitar to Laptop)  and not for DAC (USB from the laptop to audio out), so it's a DAC DI Box that I'm after for my chain to be: Midi keyboard> USB> Laptop (DAW and VST)> USB> DAC with DI> XLR > Mixer.

......I'm still a bit confused though, interfaces like the Steinberg UR22mkII  have inputs (mic/line), midi in/out, line out so clearly do ADC and midi control, but they also say "the rock-solid drivers of the UR22mkII let you run VSTis at very low latencies", and, "interfaces feature high speed USB 2.0, which provides fast, reliable and seamless connectivity to Mac and PC computer...... Together with the enhanced low latency of our SSP2 chip and the latest drivers". These sort of interfaces seem geared towardes being an ADC to get analog audio digitised and into a Laptop rather than DAC taking digital out and making it analog audio - but their text seems to imply that it perhaps also works as a DAC. If that's the case then that covers my DAC needs and potential for ADC if I need to record Bass etc. 

DAC DI Box's more obviously cover what I need for the midi keyboard/Laptop out. Since I bought the M Audio Hub I now think the Art USB DI is probably better, or the Mackie MDB-USB Stereo DI Box , or  Radial USB Pro  (each has a increased price though), benefits being that none of them require a seperate power supply and they all have XLR outputs instead of the M Audio Hub 1/4" outs, drawbacks being they cost upto £200 extra.

Apart from being more sturdy and avoiding un-balanced cables, here's some stuff I've read online generally about the benefits of using an interface (I think they are usually talking ADC, but sometimes interchangably talking about features that relate to DAC). 

"Audio interfaces are essential for anything related to music production. They offer higher audio quality than the built-in audio interface of Mac/iPhone devices. These are the greatest advantages they offer over built-in sound cards from a Mac/iPhone: Much lower latency, more inputs, and better connectivity, and better quality—audio interfaces have better AD/DA converters," (I assume this is more so for Windows Laptops) https://www.lifewire.com/how-a-usb-audio-interface-is-better-than-your-onboard-headphone-jack-7370406

I would definitely prefer an external audio interface for its quality and robustness, and the fact that you don’t have to fiddle around with 3.5mm jack adapters. Moreover, using an external audio interface generally allows you to use ASIO (Audio Stream Input/Output) that allows specific software applications (e.g., your DAW such as Cubase or Ableton) to communicate directly with the hardware interface, without the OS as intermediary. This can give excellent low latency performance https://www.skippyweb.eu/2023/08/using-a-laptop-during-live-performances/

When it comes to audio quality, a USB audio interface surpasses the onboard headphone jack found on most devices. The onboard jack may provide basic audio playback, but it falls short when it comes to delivering the highest quality sound. A USB audio interface is designed with specialized circuitry and converters, specifically engineered to handle audio signals. This dedicated hardware ensures that the audio signals are processed and converted with utmost accuracy and precision. These interfaces utilize high-quality digital-to-analog converters (DACs) and analog-to-digital converters (ADCs) to maintain the integrity of the audio signal throughout the recording and playback process. The result is cleaner, clearer, and more detailed sound reproduction. In contrast, the onboard headphone jack is typically integrated into the motherboard or sound card, and it shares resources with other components. This can lead to signal interference, poor dynamic range, and added noise and distortion. Moreover, USB audio interfaces often support higher sample rates and bit depths, providing a more accurate representation of the original audio. https://citizenside.com/technology/how-a-usb-audio-interface-is-better-than-your-onboard-headphone-jack/

23 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Here as promised are a couple of photos of my computer set up.

 

Firstly everything packed down into the 3U rack case and K&M mixer stand:

 

The label on the rack top is indicate the front as it only fits properly one way round, and this allows a quicker pack away on dark stage or back-stage areas.

 

And  then set up ready to use. 

 

I use the mixer stand "back-to-front" so that the front of the case is pointing slightly upwards which makes everything easier to see and get to. Only the top and front panels need to be removed as all the connections are made via the patch panel at the front. 

 

The interface is a Focusrite Scarlet 18i20 which in terms of audio ins and outs is complete overkill for what I need, but it scores on very important feature in that it is properly rack mountable and only occupies 1U of space. I previously had a "half rack" Saffire interface, but there was no way of fixing it securely in a 1U space, so it was sold and replaced with this. It also provides a single MIDI In and Out. Hidden inside the rack is mains distribution for the interface and MacBook, and an ART DTI box which provides transformer isolated outputs from the interface so there is no chance of earth loop hum or damage to the interface by being presented with phantom power or anything else unwanted from the PA.

 

The MacBook connects to the PSU and 2 USB leads which are the only connections that do not lock or have been permanently hot-glued into place, since I occasionally need the computer out for non-musical functions. The rest of the time it lives in this case. With the laptop closed there's a piece of foam that fits over the top and the flight case lid holds it all in place.

 

Connections on the patch panel from left to right are:

 

XLR inputs 3 & 4 for the audio interface. I puts these in just in case they might been needed. They haven't so far.

 

XLR outputs 1 & 2 from the audio interface via the ART DTI Box. These provide a balanced line to the PA without needing additional DI boxes.

 

Jack outputs 1 & 2 from the audio interface via the ART DTI Box. Occasionally we are presented with a PA engineer who insists on using their own DI boxes. The we use these outputs.

 

XLR output 3 from the audio interface. This is for the drummer's click track that I use with one of the bands. It goes to Behringer headphone amp.

 

The next two XLRs are for MIDI in and MIDI out and connect to the corresponding sockets on the interface. I'm not a fan of DIN connectors for live use, and where ever possible they are replaced by XLRs in my equipment. The MIDI out connects via a special lead (with 2 spares) to my Helix to send patch changes as the backing plays, so I don't have to worry about being in the right place at the right time to hit a pedal.

 

The USB socket (a necessary evil and with multiple spare leads) is for Elgato Stream Deck Pedal which I use for the remote control of the backing. This allows me to stop/start backing playback, and automatically load the next song in the set.

 

Finally there is a Powercon input socket that connects to the mains and provides power for the contents of the rack.

 

It might look like it's over-engineered, but I've only ever had one problem with this setup in the 6 or so years I've been using it which was on a very "bouncy" stage where the one connector that I didn't think would need hot gluing in place - the mains input to the Focusrite which is on a standard IEC mains lead - became disconnected mid song causing the backing to stop playing. Since this happened with the band that has a drummer we simply played through to the end of the song, after which I reached into the back of the rack, pushed the lead back into place and we carried on. I doubt anyone in the audience even noticed that the backing track had cut out half-way through. On returning home after the gig this last cable was also hot glued into place.

 

HTH.

 

 

Nice setup! Mine is going to be a much more amateur sort of thing. 

Mine right now is: Midi keyboard > USB > Laptop (Reaper DAW and VSTs) > 1/8" headphone out > 1/4" adapter > SubZero DI > XLR > Mixer > PA

The red text seems the weakest link so I assume I need something like the M Audio air hub  to take USB from the Laptop and convert it to audio: meaning Laptop USB output rather than the more delicate 1/8" headphone out, lower Latency than using the Laptop soundcard (and less processing pressure on the Laptop),  can power other USB devices (again - reducing the reliance on the Laptop and less plugging things in/out), and it has headphone and line outs each with their own volume control. As the next gig is tommow night I've ordered it for next day delivery without giving it too much thought, so hopefully it's what I need! 

10 hours ago, sammybee said:

ps you're selling that MPC Keys far too cheaply at £800

 

I was hoping at £800 would be a quick sale and hassle free with someone collecting, and avoids Reverb/ebay fees. It's on Facebook marketplace though and so far there have just been a lot of:

(even though the advert says 'if the advert is up, it is still available. Let me know if you have any different questions') 

1 hour ago, sammybee said:

What exactly are you trying to achieve? Does it not make more sense to buy a sound module if all you are doing is using the laptop to generate sounds?

I might, but the key word though is 'buy' As I already have a Laptop with DAW and VSTs and don't want to spend alot. 

I used the midi keyboard with usb to laptop, then laptop headphone out to mixer/pa at rehearsal tonight and it worked fine, no noticeable sound issues. Probably not the most roadworthy solution, but it'll do for now and cost me about £150. I think the main thing now it to make sure it's reliable, so decent connectors/protection and making sure the Laptop is reliable (gig on Friday so I don't have long!). 

I need, Piano, Rhodes, Hammond, Clav, with some fx. If there is a module can do that without cosing a lot and connects easily to a midi keyboard and out to a mixer then I'll go for it. The Reface CP looks the best bet in my sort of price range, annoying it has mini keys otherwise I would've got just that, but could potentially use it paired with the midi keyboard for its keys. Pianobox might be good too. (And, I don't need the sounds, but do have my eye on the Behringer Mini D). 

The M-Audio Oxygen Pro 49 arrived. Seems quite a solid and decent keyboard while being a fair bit smaller and lighter than my MPC Key 61. 

Knobs, sliders etc. are all good. Keys and pads are okay, not as good as the MPC Keys, but not bad. 

It worked straight away sending midi signals to my Laptop via USB, but I ran into the usual faff of drivers, settings, install/registrations etc (things that drove me to hardware) and for some reason it would not make a sound through Ableton or MPC Beats (but could see signals were being sent, so that's them/laptop rather than the keys), so I tried it out on Reaper and all is good. (Side note: Reaper is becoming my favorite DAW, it always just seems to make workflow better for me with reduced faff). And with the Laptop/headphones there isn't noticable latency.

So my next step is how to get what I'm hearing through my headphones into the band mixer/PA. The simplest is Laptop 1/8" headphone out to a 1/4" line input to the mixer (which I'll try tonight at rehersal), but that seems a bit shoddy and could pick up noise. If I can go from one of the Laptop USB as an out to an interface and then from that via XLR to the mixer that would seem a bit sturdier and more professional.

What interfaces are y'all using for a live setup with a MIDI keyboard? As said above - typical connectors are probably not reliable enough for gigs, using things  1/8" headphones jack and USB extensions seems unreliable and a good way to get some sudden loud noises (or no noise) through a PA.

Information online seems a bit thin on the ground. this video is pretty good, it recommends a Powered USB Hub (CalDigit),  and Audio interface (eg. MOTU M4, Focusrite Scarlett).

........Trouble being that costs start creeping up, I'm selling an MPC Key 61 (for £800) as it seems overkill (in size, cost, features) for what I need for live stuff and I'm worried I'll damage it if I keep taking it to wekly rehearsals and pub gigs. A £150 midi keyboard seems like £650 savings, but if I also need £400 worth of interface stuff (and potentially an upgraded Laptop/Tablet) then the midi keyboard route starts to look less cost effective.

59 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

I'm assuming that this is a computer running Windows?

 

Is it possible to set it up with a separate log-in/user for music use like you can on MacOS?

 

Although my MacBook spends the majority of it's time being used for music, I do need it for work occasionally and each usage is on a different login with the preferences tailored to suit - Wifi and Bluetooth are turned off and notifications along with a load of other stuff is disabled for the music user.

Thanks, that's a good idea. It is a Windows Laptop and can have separate user profiles.