Baloney Balderdash

Been working on my amp-less setup for a while (for my 4 string 28,6" scale Ibanez Mikro Bass, tuned to G1 standard tuning, as in 3 half steps above regular E standard 4 string bass tuning, equipped with a DiMarzio Model P P pickup wired directly to the output jack socket, and run through an always on 1 octave up effect mixed with clean signal, giving an effect similar to an 8 string "octave" bass with pairs of respectively bass and octave strings), and I think it finally has reached it's final form with the arrival of the Art Tube MP Project Series tube preamp that I ordered from Thomann last Friday night.

I did however replace the "hand picked premium selected" ( ...yeah, right...  ) cheap Chinese stock tube, which had a prominent exquisite thin fizzy and harsh top tire Chinese premium crapiest of all crap tonal quality to it (which I suppose must have been the parameters Art instructed their official "tube hand-picker" in chief to aim for), with a proper quality Russian made EHX 12AX7EH preamp tube, which made a huge difference.

So the tube in this preamp is definitely no cheap gimmick (don't quite understand the reasoning behind Art choosing to save a fairly minimal amount of production bucks by equipping this preamp with a horrible sounding tube from factory though, as it definitely doesn't give the customers the right impression of the overall actual quality of the unit).

Though I am perfectly aware that this is in the cheaper end of tube preamps on the market, and that it utilizes a starved tube plate circuit, however I've read in a blog somewhere, written by someone who actually measured the tube plate voltage of this preamp, that it still runs at about 70V, which, while quite a bit more than most other starved tube circuits on the market, still is a long way up to the about 200 to 300V that, as far as I know, usually is considered the optimal plate voltage to run preamp tubes at.

Non the less it does a great job at adding a really nice touch of rich warm tube flavor and slight compression, just taking the upmost sharp edge of my bass signal (not to be confused with tone sucking), sort of rounding off the harshness of my signal in a really beautiful way, while still retaining the bite and zing of it.

This is how the Art Tube MP Project Series tube preamp looks :

This is the specs sheet :

And here's how my always on amp-less setup looks in it's entirety on written form :

TC Electronic SpectraComp (always on, fully customizable, 3 band, compressor) ->> Boss LS-2 [A+B Mix <-> Bypass] (parallel effect loops mixer/switch) ->> ={  [Loop A Send] ->> [Loop A Return] ->||<- [Loop B Send] ->> Joyo Orange Juice (always on, relatively low gain, Orange amp style, overdrive, that is always mixed with the clean signal from parallel effects [Loop A] at an about 60% Orange Juice/40% clean signal ratio) ->>  [Loop B Return] }=>> Zoom G1 Four (exclusively used as an always on EQ, utilizing five 1 band fully parametric equalizers to fine tune the tone by boosting the 63Hz, 200Hz, 250Hz, 400Hz, and 1khz frequency bands +1 to +2 dB) ->> Behringer BEQ700 Bass Graphic Equalizer (always on, with the 50Hz, 120Hz, 400Hz, and 800Hz band boosted ever so slightly (~ +1 to +2 dB), and the 4.5kHz and 10kHz band cut repsectively about -5dB and -15dB) ->> Art Tube MP Project Series (tube preamp) 

->> [ Either : ->> headphones preamp ->> headphones (for home practice) /Or/ ->> mixer/poweramp ->> PA speaker/full range cabinet (for band rehearsals/jamming/gigging) ] 

17 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

 

I actually once owned the 60W 1969 version of the B-15S.

Got it cheap, for what equals just about 300£ from a second hand music gear shop in the mid 90's (including the original flip top cabinet).

Was one hell of a great amp, and I regret much being stupid enough to let go of it again, after it having served me well for over 10 years, even if I these days actually really prefers the tone I get from solid state amps.

Still I wouldn't mind getting one again, or the newer still in production Ampeg PF-50T, or even just the PF-20T, for that matter, if I ever get that kind of money to spare again.

Just to have that kind of tone in my arsenal. 

3 minutes ago, Maude said:

There is no issue of a transition. 

In order from the headstock end would be the nut, cut nice and low for fretless, then the fretless area, then the fretted area of board that has been carved a frets height lower than the the previous part. The first fret would be butted up against the higher area of board, then as per a fretted bass for the rest of the neck. 

When playing the fretless area, the frets are exactly the same height as the fretless board would be if it were there. When playing the fretted area the 'first' fret would have a fret behind it, butted against the fretless area, acting like the fret behind any other played fret. No transition to worry about. 

Another way of visualising this is to forget about frets altogether. Get a normal fretless bass and at whichever end you want the fretted area, carve the area between the 'frets' away to the depth that you like your fretted string action, the raised areas left are your 'frets'

Its completely doable, but ultimately not worth it. 🙂

That could actually work, yes.

But, yeah, definitely not worth it. 

2 hours ago, Maude said:

You appear to be getting rather worked up over someone not understanding what you see as basic physics. Yet I don't understand why you, or anyone else, hasn't thought of the, to me, blindingly obvious answer to the problem of the high action on the fretless part. Ask yourself this, why does the board have to be the same height along its length? If the fretless part was the same height as the top of the frets then you could achieve a nice low action on both the fretted and fretless areas, whichever way around they were. Even better action could be achieved for fretless if the fretless part were at the lower end as the nut could be filed right down, nearly to the board as a fretless should be. 

Some people don't/can't visualise things the way that others can, but there's no reason to belittle them. 

🙂

Seems to me like you might be missing the context.

That solution would still have the issue by the transition from the fretless part right after the headstock to the first fret on the upper part of the neck towards the bridge, don't see how this solves the issue of that transition. 

Beside I am not getting worked up by the person suggesting it, we all suggests some stupid things from time to time without thinking things properly through, but I am just honestly puzzled why that person would still insist on being right after being explained how his suggestion wouldn't work and why.

4 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

What part of it don't you get?

I don't get how you refuse to accept some quite simple and basic principles of physics and common sense.

I really honestly don't.

Doctor J already explained perfectly well why what you suggests wouldn't work and how you can test it yourself if you for some reason are unable to visualize the issues it would result in.

But whatever, as long as you don't try to talk anyone into actually doing it and succeeds I guess no harm is done, so let's just leave it at that.

5 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

With frets, the action is going to be high no matter what.

At this point I have hard time believing you are not joking.... 

Seriously?.... 

It's all most on the same level as in don't understanding why a time machine would be so complicated to build when you can just turn the time on your watch backwards.

Answer me this, how does frets work, how come a tone is produced when you press a finger behind one of them, and what happens if your string action is too low?

It's really really basic physics to the point where it's really more of just being common sense.  

That fretboard is indeed quite an oddity.

Not sure how I feel about the pickguard either, but I absolutely love the burned natural finish of it.

18 minutes ago, Pea Turgh said:

I know it’s a cheapo, but even so, the sound is just brittle.  Hifi speakers manage more bass.  Pretty sure I’ve seen someone else do something similar.

Did you read my reply, about looking into the possibility of enlarging the speaker mounting hole in your little guitar combo a couple of inches to make it possible to fit an 8" bass driver speaker unit into it, as that would likely, with the right 8" unit, give a much improved, actually even quite decent, result over what any 6.5" speaker unit, even if specifically designed as a bass driver, likely would for use with a bass guitar?

1 hour ago, itu said:

If you keep the volume down, there is no need to change the speaker. If the volume is in need, well...

Though the stock speaker would by far most likely be voiced for guitar, which, especially at only 6.5", would most likely make it extremely poor at reproducing the low end of the bass, but which a speaker designed specifically as a bass driver, even at the just about 6.5" of the stock one, would no doubt do a much better job at.

Though in any case you should properly still expect from a just 6.5" speaker unit, no matter the design, to not exactly work optimally for use with a bass, so if it is possible to enlarge the speaker mounting hole in that little combo like a couple of more inches it might be worth looking into your options for fitting an 8" speaker unit in it instead, since there are actually a few options for 8" speaker units on the market specifically designed to work as bass drivers that got a quite decent low end response for use with a 4 string bass (that is of course given that the space/volume of the speaker enclosure of the combo otherwise happens to actually accommodate that).  

1 hour ago, Geek99 said:

... and you like the instrument...if you don’t gel with it it’s a non starter 

Yes, but I think it is important to make sure that OP actually realizes that he is most likely exchanging perfect fretwork for better looks if he swaps that bass, in this case and in this kind of price class (even higher end big factory production basses will often have less perfect fretwork than the bass he got now, as he mentions allowing for a 1,7mm action at 12th fret for the low E string without any fret buzz, and as this is a budget bass the risk is even higher that the new better looking one won't have as perfect fretwork, in fact I would say that it is even to be expected to be the by far most likely scenario).

If he knows that then he got a fair chance for making a qualified decision.

Not informing him about this risk, and how high it actually is, is not really helping him making a fully informed and qualified decision. 

The actual choice however is of course still entirely his and his alone, but I assume he made this thread and mentioned the state of the fretwork and action he was able to get on the bass in question for a reason. 

.

On 09/08/2020 at 20:19, Baloney Balderdash said:

I rest my case...

Doesn't own one.

 

Got these though:

 

This one being the original stock old official Ibanez Mikro Bass gigbag that I got with my old 4 string Ibanez GSRM20 Mikro Bass, which is actually my main bass, back when that was still a standard accessory included as part of the deal when you bought a new Ibanez Mikro Bass. 

It doesn't have the thickest padding (not being of quite as high quality as the separately sold later version of the official Ibanez Mikro Bass gigbag), but it's the perfect size and shape for the Mikro Bass to fit quite snugly inside, which prevents it from skipping around inside the standard guitar gigbag that I later bought, which got thicker padding, and which is actually big enough, despite it being meant for guitars and not basses, for the stock Mikro Bass gigbag packed with my Mikro Bass, to easily fit inside of it, the two gigbags combined this way offering super effective protection, quite sure more effective than any single gigbag on the market would be able to offer, even if it does makes packing and unpacking the bass slightly more circumstantial, though really being a quite minor inconvenience to pay for the extremely solid protection this solution actually offers :

 

And this one being the mentioned gigbag that the gigbag on the above picture is packed inside of when transporting my Mikro Bass :

 

Note that the pictures not quite reflects the actual real size ratio between the 2 bags, the gigbag on the second picture actually ought to had been slightly bigger compared to the size of the gigbag on the first image. 

I am about to scrap this double bag system for this cheap, but, at least on paper, remarkable Thomann E-Guitar Gigbag Premium BR, with 30mm high density industrial-grade foam padding and a build in "split foam block + strap with velcro locking system" neck retainer inside, to prevent the bass from skipping around (note that it's a guitar gigbag though, which fits my Mikro Bass perfectly, and I don't know it Thomann sells a similar bass version) :

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_premium_gigbag_eguitar_br.htm

Should receive it with the mail service Wednesday.

Edit!!! : Does indeed come in a bass guitar version as well : https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_e_bass_gigbag_premium.htm

On 14/11/2020 at 17:19, itu said:

Take a look at the Alembic Stanley Clarke signature model. If your hands are on a length-challenged side and you are shorter than 6 foot 10, the lowest notes are slightly hard to reach.

You are aware that that's a short scale bass, right?

Cause even though Mister Stanley indeed is a tall fellow with quite large hands, and that he is a skilled double bass player as well, he actually prefers playing short scale electric basses, which his main signature Alembic indeed is too. 

Chances are high that you won't get one with as perfect fretwork if you return it, especially considering that it's a budget instrument to begin with (1.7mm action on low E string 12th fret without any fret buzz would be good even for a higher end large factory production instrument from stock).

Frankly I'd much much rather have that on a bass than it being perfect cosmetically.

I wouldn't return it if I was you.

Jex Throth (killer female vocalist doom/stoner)  :

Nothing Left to Die (by Jex Thoth)

I would say one of the old Trace Elliot amps, though both the older and the newest Zoom bass multi effects does include that.

Though personally I would want higher quality modeling than what those Zoom effects provide if I were to use it, and then I might as well just buy the Trace Elliot Transit B preamp.

However I don't really have any need for amp and cab modeling, since after a lot of experimenting and dialing I found a tone that match my preferences perfectly, even when going direct and using headphones, utilizing a TC Electronic SpectraComp, as the first thing in my signal chain, right after my bass, going into my Boss LS-2 with a Joyo Orange Juice put in one of the effect loops and mixed at an about 60% Orange Juice/40% dry bass signal ratio via the LS-2, and then as the very last thing in my signal chain a patch on my Zoom MS70 CDR consisting of six fully parametric 2 band equalizers going into my Behringer BEQ700 Bass Graphic Equalizer.

On the Edge of (by Low)

@BassmanPaul

Funny cause the old Trace Elliot amps are known to push a great deal above their rated power.

But whatever, I am grateful that I at least use my ears and not my eyes to play music, makes it all come a lot more naturally.

Did you even actually try it out, or did you just take it apart to look at it's innards?  

All preamps are active.

No such thing as a passive preamp.

1 hour ago, Geek99 said:

27 minutes ago, paul_5 said:

 

Uhm... 

Is this a joke on that adult film actress with the same "artist" name as these clone amps or something?

Like if you just click that link in the OP there are loads of pictures of the amp in question.

It does of course require of you to actually click it.  

2 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

Remember that song - There ain't nothin' like the real thing Baby, There ain't nothing like the real thing.

That might very well be how that song goes, however that doesn't automatically also make it true, and certainly not applied to every possible situation and all possible things. 

Also I believe these Ampeg B-15 clones quite possibly could actually be totally real, that is unless "pbassspecial" is just making stuff up.

But why would he do that? 

2 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

From what I have observed a Trace GP7 300 is actually 150W.. I was disappointed in the construction of my unit. The cooling path was just a fan blowing on a heatsink. 

This was a 300W GP7SM head though (and even if it hadn't been and had just been 150W it would still had been plenty for my needs, as I had no issues with hearing myself and being heard at band rehearsals in a loud hard hitting rock band (without ear plugs my ears seriously hurt) with my 130W 1x15" GP7SM Trace Elliot combo amp, and that with the master volume never having to pass the about 10/11 o'clock mark at any time (people complaining about not being able to hear them self using a 300W amp must either be deaf or use a feather for picking (no wonder if they are deaf though at the kind of volume they must play at))).

It has been sold to someone else though, and as it turned out I eventually decided to nether buy that head or an ELF or similar minature Class D head, since I actually got a tone that I really like from my pedal setup, just utilizing a TC Electronic SpectraComp, a Joyo Orange Juice analog Orange amp emulation preamp/overdrive mixed paralelly with the dry signal of my bass via my Boss LS-2, a chain of six 2 band fully parametric Equalizers in a patch on my Zoom MS-70 CDR digital multi stomp pedal, and finally my Behringer BEQ700 Bass Graphic Equalizers, sounding great just  like that just going direct when using headphones for home practice, and for band rehearsals going into the Effects Return (poweramp input) of my 160W Peavey Solo Special 112 guitar combo, with it's build in 12" guitar speaker disconnected, and instead being hooked up to my 400W SWR Triad I full range bass cab (equipped with a 1x15 (full range bass driver) + 1x10" (mid range driver) + tweeter horn (high frequency driver)), though I plan on buying a cheap poweramp for easier transportation, and then adding an ART Tube MP Project Series tube preamp between the Behringer EQ and the poweramp to get a line level signal. 

It took quite a lot of experimenting and fiddling to get my amp-less rig just right only by utilizing equalization and no real bass preamp or cab simulation, but as far as I am concerned it is just about absolutely perfect as it is now.

The urge to get that used Trace Elliot head was really more of an irrational nostalgia driven whim, than it was because I really needed it, anyway. 

They do sound absolutely amazing though, those old Trace Elliot amps. but they also weight about half a ton (so does my current old SWR cab and Peavey amp too though (even if also sounding amazing), but knowing that I am not really dependent on either, and that I could just go direct into a PA and still get a really great tone that sounds exactly like I prefer my tone to be it is a great comfort and feels good, well worth the work it required to get there, and in the end it saved me some money as well). 

As far as the construction goes I don't get you, they are build like tanks, if they weren't how would you explain most of them still being fully and absolutely flawlessly functional and perfectly great sounding after something like 30 years straight of harsh "Rock'n'Roll and stuff possibly even worse" abuse?

What more proof do you need?

If that's not a testament to absolutely solid quality construction, despite your personal opinion on the matter, I don't know what it is, I somehow doubt most of the current class D lightweight amp making it that long without giving up halfway, and even less if put through that same kind of abuse as some of these old amps have been through, yet continuing to play on absolutely perfectly as if like that never happened to them.  

49 minutes ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

I've made four basses that fit roughly into this category with scale lengths of 27" and of 23". All are four string - the 23" basses are headless and the 27" are headed. I'm currently tinkering with the 23" basses and trying out a 27" headless neck which is looking promising. All details are in the build diaries section if anyone is interested in seeing what they all look like.

I'm really please with the last 27" bass I made. Passive with a single Bartolini pickup (that can be switch between single coil and humbucker) and white LED side markers. It is really comfortable to play and sounds great - I really need to get some sound clips sorted and posted on here! Here's a few piccies. 

There is something about basses of around this scale and I can only suggest people trying them. I'll be taking all these short things to bass bashes, hopefully in the first half of next year.  With a bit of luck I'll have finished the five string version I'm currently building. 

Amazing! 

Great work! 

Unfortunately I am not much of a woodworker myself, and I am sure it would go horribly wrong if I attempted making my own bass, and I can't really afford to have one custom made either, or else I would have had a custom 28,6" scale bass to my dream specs.

Though I have kind of pondered on buying a cheap 27" scale Harley Benton 7 string guitar and then having a new nut and 6 mono rail bass bridges fir on it, that way converting it to a 6 string short scale bass, but tuning it in E standard tuning, and pondered on doing the same to an Eastwood Side Jack Bartitone Guitar, turning it into an 27.5" 4 string bass. 

Both would end up with a bit tighter string spacing than standard, but I would actually see that as an advantage, and it wouldn't even be by that much (the 7 string Harley Benton guitar having a nut width of 48mm and the Eastwood baritone guitar a nut width of 41mm, but the latter then with a neck that doesn't expand much in width as it goes up).

Actually, if I go through with this idea, kind of counting on using the stock guitar tuners, or that is respectively 6 out of 7 and 4 out of 6, and making them able to accept bass string gauges by drilling the string holes in them bigger (hey if it works for Danelectro I ought to be able to make it work for me too). 

The Eastwood Baritone guitar/4 string bass conversion I assume likely to turn out the best, especially since it got a slightly longer scale length and the tuners being 3+3 and not in a line like on the Harley Benton 7 string guitar.

The Eastwood would cost me double as much as the Harley Benton though, but then having a nut cut and installed together with 4 mono rail bass bridges ought not to cost me that much, and the stock 2 x P90 pickup's 6 pole pieces ought to be able to cover the 4 strings just fine (the 7 string Harley Benton being equaipped with 2 x blade humbuckers).

14 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

I've been looking at short scale basses recently. I'm not interested in the short scale Jags/ Bronco/ etc. or a violin bass. Alternatives are limited - There seems to be a lot of old tat out there like the Swift and the Hofner Travel bass (is it a short scale?) and anything else which looks more than half decent is in the £1,000+ region.

I do like the look of the Squier Mini at around £130. I tried a Chowny SWB a while back and was underwhelmed with the hardware. 

The only thing I've seen in the £500-600 range which looks even slightly VFM is the short scale Musicman - £699 seems to be par for the course - you do need to hunt around to find them for less than £619 (Thomann I believe).

Ideally,  like many others here I'd like one of @Jabba_the_gut's creations but Jez isn't turning them out and I believe is harassed, understandably, to sell those which are nearing completion.

Here's what Bass Direct have:

https://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/Short_Scale_Bass_Guitars.html

Appreciate your input, and I am short scale bass enthusiast too, though this thread was meant to be dedicated sub-short scale basses, as in basses shorter than the just about 30" scale length usually categorized as short scale basses, like in the about 25" to 28,6" scale length range, since there is always a thread going on about mini basses at around a 16" scale length.