agedhorse

On 14/06/2012 at 06:37, dincz said:

See above for explanation.

It says the same thing about high impedance pickups running into low impedance inputs. Guitar/bass amps generally don't have low impedance inputs anyway - unless they have a line input which is typically only 20kohm or so.

Both hi/lo level/sensitivity inputs on amps tend to be at least 500kohm (high impedance) or so, so there won't be a problem.

Actually, this is only sometimes the case.

Depending on  the design, it's not uncommon for an active input to have a lower input impedance of say 50k while a passive input may have an input impedance of 1Meg. This is often the reason why many players view the active input as a "tone suck", not because of the lower sensitivity but because of the lower input impedance (especially an issue when using both with passive pickups).

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

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And I suspect the new hybrids are even quieter - but that would be a question for @agedhorse to confirm. If they are, would you not be a little tempted by the new Mesa TT-800?

Yes, the fans all in the Subway amps are MUCH quieter, almost silent.

37 minutes ago, krispn said:

Mesa amps both guitar and bass were never as straightforward as their control layout would have had you believe. I geeked out reading the manuals way too much in my teens but it really made me appreciate that every amp builder/amp can have its own quirks and it really does pay to RTFM if you can get access to it. 
 

 

Agreed. To this point, much effort was put into making the controls of the Subway line more intuitive. 

The M-2000 is capable of a range of tones, but within the family of the BB and Titan (and the Buster/Bass 400 to a lesser extent). It's really an amp that you need to get to know personally, not an easy amp to get along with but if you do, it's hard to beat. Some of the tones, especially the overdriven tones, are fairly unique IMO.

The M-2000 was kind of its own animal, so many options that it's not really comparable IMO to any one amp. That's what made it desirable but is also what turned other players away from it.

1 minute ago, Steve Browning said:

Actually, and in all seriousness, can folk who make amps that are rack'able please put a parallel input on the back? It can be a right pain to get to an input on the front if there's other stuff in the rack.

I've done this on some past designs and it's become less and less asked for, especially on amps that have effects loops and where line level rack mounted effects are being used. Otherwise, a front input only covers 99% of these applications.

For those rack mount tuners that do not have a front parallel output and/or do not have a rear panel input to take advantage of the rear panel tuner output provided by many amps, that's something that would be more useful for that specific need IMO. 

22 minutes ago, Deepbass said:

Thanks agedhorse - that definitely helps...there is indeed a number of them in England...I have a MBass 2000 that isn't working ... I understand that there is a lot of stuff packed in there which can make it time consuming to repair...in light of the new TT which is also a hybrid amp would you say the 2000 is still worth it and/or cost effective to repair...? 

That's a good question. The M-2000 is quite a unique amp and not very intuitive to use because of so many options for signal routing within the basic signal path. There is a lot of stuff going on, it was an expensive (actually very expensive) amp to build, it's difficult to work on and it's generally fairly expensive to repair (depending on what's wrong of course). 

If the M-2000 does what you want and fills your needs, than I would certainly recommend that you get some kind of estimate to see where you might stand on the cost. If it isn't your "must have" amp, there is certainly a market for such an amp as it does have its fan base. Some of these folks might be willing to buy it not working because if they want one, there are a very limited number that were built and are otherwise difficult to obtain.

You will have to make this determination based on your own personal tastes, needs and circumstances.

5 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

I didn't mean to imply you had. Funnily enough, all my Boogie amps have been the very ones you don't list as exceptions. I am looking forward to getting the TT even more now.

Now if you could speed up my amp to Anderton's, that would be great. 🙂

Your amp is being built now!

6 minutes ago, Deepbass said:

Who will be the authorised UK Mesa repair centre then and the source of spares and circuit diagrams etc if the distributor (who has been that source) is no longer involved...?

If you go to our website, there is a tab for international service centers. If you search on "Europe", on the left side is a list that includes many pages of European service centers including quite a few in the U.K. This list is increasing every week.

We have had several complaints about "only 4 service centers in all of Europe???" when looking at that landing page, without realizing that there are MANY additional pages of European service centers.

Hope this helps.

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers @Steve Browning 

"agedhorse may think that as idiotic" ... you're making me feel a whole bunch better, already, to know I'm in good company 😁

To clarify, I never said anything about being idiotic.

There are certainly common tonal themes across most of the bass amp models, going back 50 years. That's bound to be the case of course, given that the designers of those models were consistent over most of those years.

The exceptions are (imo and ime) the Carbines, Big Block and Titan (which were very much a more modern take on bass amps, paralleling the rectifier series popularity), the Strategy/Prodigy (which focused on a tighter approach to bass amp overdrive while maintaining the aggressive voicings of the Carbines), and to a lesser extent the Walkabout (which was distinctly different in many ways).

I was brought on board to bring more focus into the bass amp/speaker products without the distraction and workload of designing guitar products at the same time. 

My goal is to take the best, most popular elements of a particular amp family and combine these with new features, new approaches, refinements and to update the products so that they meet the needs and expectations of today's players.

For players this doesn't work for, that's fine. There is no shortage of good used amps of all types (and at bargain prices too... a bonus to players that these amps appeal to).

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

[Thread derail warning!]

So have we finally cracked why Trace Elliot watts are louder?! 😂

Although I stumbled across this rather interesting piece by Stub Mandrel on the very subject. Just wondering if that is our very own @Stub Mandrel's website?!

There is a fair amount of truth to what is posted on his website. A couple of errors though:

1. The term music power, peak music power, peak to peak power were all used starting in the 1960's not the 1980's. This is the reason for the FTC (U.S. Federal Trade Commission) rules requiring standardized power rating testing for HOME audio (hi-fi) products. This does not apply to pro audio or audio products used in the musical instrument markets (which are a tiny fraction of the size of the domestic audio market) 

2. The term "route" mean squared is actually ROOT mean squared, and is a mathematical approach to a specific type of average power that is independent of waveform shape. 

The amps are exactly the same size. I don't know for sure, but it's possible that they used the basic chassis size with one and the size with knobs, switches, handles and feet on the other, but thanks for pointing this out as they should be identical.

Just now, BassManGraham said:

Well I got a Subway 800+ at what I thought was a great price from Andertons a couple of years back about 250 off RRP it was actually cheaper than the Subway 800, may even have been a pricing error? These new prices are brilliant and even blow that bargain away!. I love the features and tone of the Mesa Subways. Though they do not seem as loud as Markbass and Quilter 800s I own. Looking forward to hear BC reviews of the TT800. May even buy one if gigs ever resume!

Note that the control tapers are designed so that there is a smooth increase in volume throughout the entire rotation. many amps use a taper that makes most of the range of control happen in the first 50% of the control's rotation. To that casual observer, this makes an amp appear louder when comparing using knob position only. The downside to this is that the range of real world adjustment is not as wide or smooth acting.

Also, to clarify, a good part of the height of the chassis is due to the use of tubes in the design. How many tubes does the DG amp use, and might this affect the packaging options?

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks agedhorse. Yup there are indeed a lot of front & rear panel features. The way that DG dealt with that was by using sliders for a single 6 band EQ for their two channels (rather than having a separate EQ for each channel), which allowed them to pack in quite a few more features in the same overall size in their Mk2 model as the Mk1 - I think you'll find the DG Mk2s have a broadly comparable set of rear panel features to the two Mesa amps.

FWIW the comparable sizes, if we take my DG amp as "1 unit", are as follows:

DG AO900 2.9kg. Vol = "1 unit"; 

Mesa TT800 3.2kg. Vol = +45% compared to DG amp;

Mesa WD800 3.2kg. Vol = +90% (!) compared to DG amp - it was really this jump that caught my attention when I saw a reviewer holding one of the WD900s and thought: not heavy, but that's gonna be quite a bulky item to have in a shoulder gig bag.

I'm sure for many folk it's not going to be an issue, but just caught me a little by surprise when I spotted it.

I also note the TT800 features a 3 AT7 tube preamp vs the 1 AT7 on the WD-800. I'm guessing that gives it a significantly more "tubey" flavour and perhaps one of the reasons for the fact that the guys looking to buy on this thread seem to be making a bee line for that model over the WD800.

Al - I think you have some kind of misunderstanding regarding these products and comparison between the two.

First of all, on the TT-800 each channel has its own eq because the eq circuits are VERY different nad in the case of the Boogie channel, is fundamental to the voicing and texture of that channel. A single eq, no matter how many bands, is a non-starter for us in a 2 channel, channel switching amp. On the WD-800, which is a single channel amp, there is a 2 band Baxandall bass-treble eq, a passive mid that is also part of the amp's inherent voicing, and also 3 bands of semi-parametric mid that is foot switchable. This is our take on eq that's appropriate to these products.

Regarding rear panel features, I don't see things that both the TT-800 and WD-800 include, things like level, ground lift on the DI(s), nor a tuner out, full size aux input jack, USB(A) power port. The parts that we use are a little bit larger in order to capitalize on mechanical robustness. Making this layout smaller is a non-starter regarding player-friendliness.

I don't follow your comparison on size. The WD-800 and TT--800 are the same size, a little larger than the Darkglass amp you mentioned. IF you wish  to compare based on size, then either the D-800 or D-800+ would be about the same (or smaller). 

Your assumption about the differences between the TT and WD make it clear that you haven't played either. They are entirely different amps, different tone profiles, different texture profiles, different feature sets and are designed to appeal to different players. The number of tubes is relatively independent to this, the signal path for the Boogie channel uses 1 tube and the signal path for the Subway channel uses 1/2 of a tube, one tube is common to both channels. It's HOW the tubes are used that matter, no different than every other aspect of a design.

May I suggest that you try the amps before making performance comparisons?

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

You'd be the second behind Mr Browning, who has already ordered his!

😉

One thing I hadn't registered was just how BIG the WD-800 and TT-800 are. They're not your typical D class head size by any means.

They are a little bigger because of the feature set... there was no practical way to make them smaller given the controls and especially the rear panel features. 

To follow up to the many messages I have received from you guys (both here and on TB), I thought it might be helpful to provide the following information so that you are basing your comments and decisions on factual information.

The warranty is now 5 years for amplifiers, 3 years for speakers, 1 year for pedal and accessory products, and 6 months for tubes. See the attached warranty documents that detail the conditions and the countries/regions included.

As far as service centers, this is something that I receive questions about regularly and now I know why. When searching for service centers on the website locator, the service center flags that come up on the map only apply to that page of service centers. Be sure to look at all of the pages to left of the map as there are MANY more EU service centers than the first map might suggest.

https://mesaboogie.com/support/locations.html?q=europe&t=repair

I hope that this helps clear up any confusion, and you can always contact me directly if you encounter difficulties and I will put you in touch with the right folks.

2020-OneYearWarranty_FINAL_200715.pdf 2020-Warranty-FiveYear_FINAL_200715.pdf

On 27/07/2020 at 09:47, fretmeister said:

Those sorts of threads have been on many forums for years but as far as I know this is the first one where Mesa have engaged with it.

I think I have a fairly well established reputation (both here and on TalkBass) for being open and honest on topics where I can be. I am posting this in response to several PM's and e-mails I have received over the past week from some of you, so rather than responding individually I am making the assumption that these are common questions to many of you even if you didn't PM me.

International distribution is a VERY complicated thing. For example, I'm responsible for the technical and regulatory side of international safety and EMC compliance. I spend considerable time and effort (which translates to cost for the company) to sort through and follow the laws and rules governing each country (or in the case of the EU, the region). Even though there has been a lot of talk and efforts over the years about bringing all of these rules under a single unified umbrella, in practice that really hasn't happened. Coming up in December, there is an entirely new set of safety standards (UL/cUL/EN/IEC-62368) that all products imported into the EU must comply with. Initially it was promoted as being an easier, less time consuming and less expensive way to bring everybody together for safety compliance but in practice it has been the opposite. It has almost doubled the work for design/compliance engineers as well as the test labs themselves. Add to this the fact that many regions that initially signed onto the new standard and the agreed upon transition dates have begun to back away from their commitments and will require new products to be certified to the older (60065) standard. Since the two standards require different analysis and testing procedures, this means that now we need to maintain two costly certifications per product! All of the Subway amps, for example, are now fully dual certified to both the 60065 AND 62368 standards. Who pays for these costs? Ultimately the customer does. 

Maintaining customer support, service centers and service agents is another costly aspect to sales (where customer service is better than the bare minimum). This includes training technicians, providing service documentation, multi-language paperwork, and transporting/stocking of parts necessary for service and warehousing product for sale. I understand the frustration regarding distributors like Westside, but at the same time they have done a good job supporting the product. Every service tech that I have dealt with at Westside was in fact very good and well qualified. It's been part of the cost of providing customer support.

With the changing of the way global is being done, we have shifted as well, though admittedly it took quite some time. Hopefully this will make our products more attractive to the rest of the world. There are bound to be some learning curve experiences, please bear with us as we take this step forward. Covid-19 has made this more difficult due to many of us (still) working remotely, but once I receive the information and links to service centers in the EU and UK, I will post this information. Warranties will continue on uninterrupted, region by region, since each region shares a different set of governing rules it's necessary to respect the rules and different requirements of each region.

I hope this helps you understand the changes.

Yes, we have some very good service centers in the UK who have access to the necessary technical information and resources.

I don't have the specs on the transformer, this is probably better answered by the customer service folks as they have access to more info. than I do.  I know that domestic transformers are not safety certified at 50hz as the domestic version testing program only looks at 60Hz operation. The export version (and 120V tap when present) on a universal market transformer will have adequate core area for 50Hz operation even on 120V.

I know that response times for support are impacted by COVID-19, many of us are working remotely right now. I assume that this may be the case in the UK as well.

Indeed, he got factory support directly from me, I had already advised him to contact Westside Distribution to have the work done because there were quite a few additional parts that needed to be changed and that the voltage change is fairly complicated. I had also advised him that the transformer should be the same so he wouldn't need a new transformer as long as the part number matched 561852. If the part number is different, then he would need the correct transformer. Most export models (and some USA models) were built with #561852, so the change shouldn't be very expensive.

If by some reason the amp has a domestic only transformer (I do not have the build data on all versions throughout the 5 year build cycle), then it will be an expensive change because it's a very costly transformer with 3 primary windings and 3 center-tapped secondary windings).

As always, the devil is in the details, Westside Distribution will know or be able to get the details. 

13 hours ago, BigRedX said:

TBH any modern solid state or Class D amp is going to be producing a far higher output then the average power attenuator is capable of handling, irrespective of whether it is bridged or not. The highest power handling I have seen on a power attenuator is 150W and the accepted practice is for safety it should be rated at twice that of the amp.

With a power attenuator, this is true in most cases, but I was also addressing the use of a DI (with a speaker load) from a speaker output.

12 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Is that only for bridged amps?

Yes, generally. Just be aware that many of the newer amps are in fact bridged, especially class D amps because there are some specific benefits to class d amps that do not apply to linear amps like class AB/G/H amps.

On 08/06/2020 at 06:49, fretmeister said:

No use at all on solid state though, and I think I read somewhere that they can even damage some SS amps.

Yes, this is correct. Most class D power amps and all class AB/G/H amps that use bridged output stages are not ground referenced. When used with a load box or a DI (like the captor) at the speaker output, the minus terminal is connected to pin 1 audio ground which is connected to the power system's protective ground at the mixer. This effectively short circuits the minus half of the power amplifier and can cause major damage. It can also damage the mixer as the input ground network is not designed for such currents.

The WD-800 is quite different as it was modeled after the Walkabout. The Subway channel on the TT-800 has more or less the tone of the D-800/D-800+ but with some added texture (like the WD-800) due to the tube driven nature.  That's the best I can do with a description, I'm sure there will be more posted about this when players start receiving them and posting their experiences.