matty589

[quote name='budget bassist' post='174189' date='Apr 10 2008, 10:14 PM']To me they were over trebled, it's not a fact, it's opinion. And it's funny how every ibanez i tried in that price range had string rattle isn't it?[/quote] SR is rather trebly. BTB isn't. The notes do have a definition that perhaps is a little more subtle on a £2000 bass, but there is always some compromise if you're paying £300. The BTB also a lot more versatile. Ibanez basses now come with horrible Elixir strings, which accounts for the extra presence. Mine had no string rattle, and if any bass does it needs a setup. Hardly a reason to purchase or not purchase any bass - any shop worth it's salt will set up a bass if you are interested in buying it. The Toby I bought needed a fretstone just to play nicely. Having actually played and owned both basses there was no contest. It's a shame as I owned an old Classic with Barts once, and a Killer B and they were both fine instruments. The Toby is a Tobias in name only.

[quote name='budget bassist' post='172597' date='Apr 8 2008, 09:07 PM']I prefer the sounds of my toby to the sound of any ibanez i've ever tried. Way over-trebled and too much string rattle. Admittedly i've only tried up to about the £450 mark, but that's the same range as my toby and i know what i'd rather have.[/quote] The BTB isn't over-trebled and string rattle on any instrument is a setup issue. I owned a bubinga Toby Pro 6 and it was a very poor sounding bass. B was flappy and undefined (even with £40 DR's), pickups were weak as and oiled finish was very cheap-looking. I tried a couple of other Tobys too and the general fit and finish was nowhere near what Ibanez offer. You could of course swap the pickups but a couple of EMG or Bart soapbars will be 50% of the original price of the bass, taking it into a different price bracket. I saw some other Tobys in what looked like quilted maple with a gloss finish, maybe they were better? The irony is that both brands could well be made in the same factory in Korea!

>>It's a different bass sound. As valid as fretless, as valid as pick playing, as valid as fingerstyle, as valid as harmonics, as valid as overdrive, as valid as chords, as valid as anything else. True, I didn't say it wasn't valid. >>First off, one guy playing slap only sounds the same as everyone else playing slap if they're one of the 1000s of clones you claim to have heard. Precisely because most bass players that love slap above everything else ARE clones. I live above a bass shop and hear them all the time - look on YouTube, there's even a guy that sounds more like Marcus Miller than Marcus does! Most of the top players can surely slap as well as anyone because they may need it one day, but I bet they get to use it 1% of the time. Producers, singers, people that make music just don't want to hear it all over their music unless it really works. Remember the Seinfeld theme tune? A sampled slap bass sound played on a keyboard with a pitch bend wheel. Made it sound like a circus theme. >>Second of all, your harmonic choices aren't limited in any way. You can play exactly the same notes in exactly the same order when you're slapping and popping as when you're playing fingerstyle (or using a pick). Which is why the vast majority of slap lines are 1.) in E, 2) using root, b7th octave, 3) using one- or two-fret hammer ons - 4th to 5th and b7th to root Due to the fact that you are hitting a metal string into metal frets with one digit (your thumb) instead of plucking them the sound is naturally more aggressive (even with a pat technique). The only player I heard that plays fingerstyle lines slapped is Alain Caron. He has amazing chops but it sounds like a gimmick - "I do it because I can". >>Also how can you say that someone can slap for days but not hold a groove or lock with a drummer? If they can't do those two basic things then they can't slap for sh*t either. I didn't say they can slap well or in time, just slap non-stop. >>I just think there's a big grey area between the "used very sparingly" end of the spectrum and the "overused" end that you talked about. Every technique and sound is a legitimate music-making tool. I think it's extremely limiting so say "slap sounds good in a very specific area of music and is a niche technique". If we all thought that way then music and our instrument would never progress or develop. I am all for pushing boundaries, learning different techniques and developing the instrument. It is a niche technique because it is too upfront and aggressive for a lot of situations - go listen to radio, film, TV, currently released music. Where do you hear it? Remember the joke about the best way to shut up a bass player - put a chart in front of them? Because from the mid-80's onwards bass players couldn't read a line or actually make music because they were too busy imitating Mark King. It was faddish and very popular in the 80's and is much less required or desired now, except for bass players that love doing it. I have had students who came to me and all they wanted to learn was slap. I got them to learn about music first, then learn to play fingerstyle in time and finally transfer that information to other techniques. I don't set out to dissuade them from slapping, just to show them there is so much more to music than one particular and very distinctive technique. I in no way believe it is limiting - one of the best songs I heard slap on was "Hearts Filthy Lesson" by David Bowie - one note, but worked perfectly for the track (it was the end title music for the film se7en). Also a couple of tracks on Black Tie White Noise were great too. Mark Egan on "Little Wing" on Nothing Like The Sun by Sting - great chorused slap line. Forget Me Nots, Never Too Much etc. All great lines. The problem with slap is it feels great so it is easy to overplay. Strong simple lines work whichever technique you choose. All the bass players I have ever met that LOVED slap could only do slap, or only wanted to play slap - that is what is limiting. People get hung up on the technique and not on the music.

[quote name='Hamster' post='172974' date='Apr 9 2008, 11:39 AM']I use mine a lot until it clicks down (and stays down until I shake my hand out or click it back with my right hand.) I'm guessing some kind of carpal tunnel syndrome? Hamster[/quote] I doubt it, this is a natural thing to do, especially on 5 and 6-strings when fretting the lower strings. You just have to train your left hand to maintain an arch to all the fingers and wherever possible avoid locking the second joint. I had (and still sometimes do have) problems with that, and I have no hand or wrist ailments. You may find that for a while the distance you can stretch is reduced but your hand will adapt. It also helps to learn to squeeze less with the left hand - less pressure = less likelihood of locking finger joints.

[quote name='bassjamm' post='172846' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:53 AM']Just to second what Geoff said, Janek's is a 33" 5 string strung E-C as is Matthew Garrison's and Tony Greys, Tony Grey also uses 6 string Fodera's, not sure of the scale length! One thing that can be done to counteract the scale length on the B string is to re-arrange the tuning pegs so that the B string has the peg furthest away from the neck, that obviously depends on headstock deisgn a lot, but i've seen this done before in order to increase B string tension on shorter scale basses!!![/quote] This is a common misconception. At a given scale length, pitch and string mass the tension is fixed. The extra string length past the nut might change the feel, but it doesn't change the tension at all. I believe Gary Willis started this idea on his Ibanez sig as he thought it improved the sound and definition of the bottom B (which I think it does - the cheap Korean GWB35 has an excellent B-string). As you said, a lot of players that have shorter scale 5's actually tune them E-C, I've never heard a short scale bass that sounded good with a B unless it was a huge string (which reduces playability). The players mentioned above also have a somewhat guitaristic style. As for scale length, well unless the OP has absolutely tiny hands a shorter scale is not a great idea as it makes all the frets at the top closer together which makes fingering awkward (should you ever get to play up the dusty end!). Get a bass that is not too heavy with good balance and a comfortable neck. You could then have even a 35" or 36" scale with few fingering problems, and you won't have to use obnoxiously thick strings to maintain tension. I also find that string spacing is more important than scale length for comfort. I used to like tight spacing at the nut and found playing bass lines in the lower register a little uncomfortable. I now prefer a wider nut with a thinner neck depth.

Most people think they sound good but they don't. Mark King was and is a fabulous bass player, but he's a better fingerstyle player. Marcus sounds great as a fingerstyle player but these days he can't play a bass line without slapping, which is why all his recent solo albums sound the same. If you listen to the earlier more fusion-influenced Level 42 tracks there are some wicked fingerstyle lines. Marcus is a monster sideman as his career in the 70's and 80's shows. Slap sounds good in a very specific area of music and is a niche technique that should be used only when it is appropriate. A lot of bass players can slap for days but can't hold a groove, lock in with a drummer, follow a chart or be sensitive to a type of song. The "pat" style of slapping is less obtrusive but still sticks out more in a track than either fingerstyle or pick playing. The other problem is that your harmonic choices are much more limited by the style of technique - the right hand is stuck over the fingerboard. Finally if you want to develop a style and sound of your own good luck as when you slap you sound like everyone else that slaps. I have heard 1000's of Mark King, marcus and more recently Victor Wooten clones. If you're going to do it a least try to do something different with it, like Alain Caron for example (although I still prefer his fingerstyle playing). It's a bit like fretless, it immediately sounds the same as everyone else unless you try to do something different with it (Mick Karn for example). Playing any instrument is about making music, and if you concentrate on a particular technique you miss the point. It's like sweep-picking on the guitar - a nice effect when used very sparingly but annoying and unmusical when overused.

The Toby Pro is not a nice bass, feels like it has been made to a price. I had a bubinga one for a while and it really felt like a cheap instrument. The wood was very oily, hadn't been dried properly. Pickups very weak output and poor finishing - Korea can do much, better than this (Lakland Skylines for example). The Ibanez SR506 is OK, but look at the BTB556 as well. For less than £400 you get a 35" scale, mono rail bridge, Bartolini mk1 pickups with 3-band vari-mid eq, and good quality fit and finish. I have played probably 3-400 different six strings over the last 20-odd years and, short of going up to the next price level, there isn't much to top the BTB. The looks are little more acquired than the SR506 but it's a much better feeling and sounding bass (and the spacing is only 0.5mm wider than the SR506). I bought a Warwick Corvette Ash 6-string s/h for £650 recently. One of the best 6's I have ever owned, believe it or not. Ovangkol neck, wenge fingboard, MEC soapbars and 2 band eq. I run it passive with pan halfway between neck PU and centre. Instant Anthony Jackson! So maybe check out ebay for some bargains - there is a Dingwall afterburner on there at £500 at the moment! It is best to try out a bunch of different 6-strings - but hardly any bass shops stock more than 1 or 2. However the Bass Gallery in Camden had (last time I looked), 2 Ibanez BTBs, a Warwick Streamer NT, Overwater Progress, Fodera Emperor, Jaydee Celeste, F-bass BN6, Status Stealth, Yamaha TRB, Sandberg fretless, and a Scott. Whilst most of these are probably out of your range, it would at least let you decide what kind of 6-string you'd be most comfortable with. Best of luck Mat

[quote name='Stag' post='153862' date='Mar 9 2008, 12:56 PM']I have never, ever, had to use the technique at a gig and doubt I ever will but it is so cool.[/quote] Says it all. Get a bunch of Sly/Graham Central Station/Brothers Johnson records and work the bass parts out. It's all you'll ever need. Slap is cool for about 3 minutes until the audience and other musicians get bored of it. It's funny Bernard Edwards was mentioned as he was one of the funkiest bass players ever and most of his iconic lines were fingerstyle. Check out Rocco Prestia from Tower of Power or Teen Town by WR and then check out Marcus's impressive, but far less funky, slapped versions of What is Hip - doing something just because you can isn't always the best idea

The B-string is also about tension - with a given scale length, string mass and pitch a string has fixed tension. The main problem with a lot of 5 and 6-string basses is that the B feels floppy. There are only two ways to make it feel more tense - 1) increase the scale length or 2) use a thicker string. A shorter scale length works OK down to a low E, but below that you'll need a .135+ B-string to maintain tension. Otherwise the B will sound and feel like it is on a different bass compared to the E/A/D/G (or C). A taperwound B gives you more definition at the expense of a less fat tone (plus palm-muting doesn't work so well). If you go to .140 or above the string starts to lose it's character and again sounds like it belongs on another bass. I have tried 33" 6-strings and 36" 6-strings, with the same strings, and the difference in feel and tension was huge. Dingwall took the tension approach and made a bass that has pretty much equal tension across all the strings. In order to do that they had to increase the scale length (like the bass notes on a grand piano) - hence the fanned frets. I have played hundreds of basses and the best B's I heard were on a Modulus Quantum 6 (35"), Sadowsky MV5 (34"), Warwick Thumb (34") and Ken Smith BSR (34") - I have played a few Foderas and found them to be nice, but the only one that had a tight B was the Anthony Jackson contrabass (36").