Kev

12 hours ago, Kev said:

 

 

That body wing in a completely different wood grain looks awful, unless its a trick of the camera.

Looking at these other photos in different finishes, it appears it is a trick of the camera!  Just a straight edged body contour making it look darker.

2 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Yep agreed - that’s really nice and especially the neck. I think I know who owns (or used to own that). There’s quite a following for Big Als so I would imagine it would sell quite quickly. As for the one at Bass Direct, I’m surprised it was so cheap - was it an SSS though (seem to be the most sought after version). 
 

One thing which never ceases to amaze me is the number of people who are willing to take the trouble to log in on forums and post negative views on a thread (fugly etc etc). To the extent we get more fugly comments than anything else - I’m not sure how helpful those comments are - seems a bit like pi**ing in the wind to me as the people who like the instrument will just think they’re rather silly!! 
 

I often feel people’s love for certain 50s/60s designed and rather average instruments is odd (I’m thinking, from memory any electrical device from 1960 came with built in hum and other negatives but no-one would dream of using them instead of properly engineered modern stuff using a range of elements invented in the last 50+ years nowadays, certainly in a day to day basis) but mediocre instruments containing the same - well some musicians seem to absolutely love em  - such instruments are also fugly in some cases (IMHO) - however I’m really not inclined to log in and tell everyone - like most people, I just walk past what I’m not interested in!! 

I mean to be fair, this isn't the Ernie Ball forum.  If someone posts a thread saying how amazing something is, naturally it almost invites people to say otherwise, nature of the interwebs and discussion forums I'm afraid!  We can all dream of a world with positive vibes only, sadly never going to happen.

Nope, never ever going to get excited by tobacco sunburst.  Neck is lovely though, and its not original!

That body wing in a completely different wood grain looks awful, unless its a trick of the camera.

6 hours ago, mrn1989 said:

I ordered one of the AT 210's, didn't even get a chance to try it before it went back. Didn't survive the courier trip 

 

Ended up going for a Barefaced BB2 G2 and absolutely love it.

 

Oh dear.  How on earth will that hold up on the road?!!  Looks a poor design for sure, however pretty it is.

9 minutes ago, Belka said:

I doubt there's any such thread, they gave a general outline of their pricing policy and I feel this is enough. One thing to also bear in mind for things like the Presentation II is research and development costs. I know they made prototypes of this bass. You could argue that any manufacturer builds prototypes and why should that influence the price of a new one, but I doubt they sell more than 2 Presentation II basses per year, so the price might somewhat reflect the hours put into the design/ prototype builds. This is probably also be the case for the bass in question here. 

 

I think I and others have said that materials do influence cost

They influence cost, but no more than any other luthier, unless fancy woods need to pay extra rent in NY as well?

I'm not necessarily saying there is such a thread, I'm just interested as I just don't understand how they cost $30k to build, yet it was mentioned how many hours it took to build one or something, which is quite a thing to calculate, so I guessed it must have been discussed somewhere, my mistake.  But in their 10% profit on each one you think they are including unspecified "research and developments" costs of prototypes built years before, they can apply any value they want to that, so its making more sense now...

I'll bow out as its just going round in circles.  I guess I just won't buy one and stick with Alpher 😅

10 hours ago, funkypenguin said:

 

Some of the materials they use are very expensive (such as CITES certified Brazilian rosewood), others are very time consuming to work with (such as Buckeye), but it's a combination of factors that make Fodera so expensive, as Jason explained in that talkbass thread. Some people seem to think that Fodera are raking in money but met them and talked to them at some length, they're really not. 

Is there a conversation on Talkbass somewhere where he specifically references how the Presentation II costs Fodera over $30k to build??  Or even this mini bass at almost $17k, still taking their 10% profit pledge as true?  I haven't seen Fodera use a wood that a much cheaper luthier does not use at least as good a grade as, so wouldn't have thought this would have any bearing on price.  It seems to be all about the shops location, and how many hours it takes them to build each bass.  Still, I can't fathom the figures at 10% profit.

Aside from the Duplo knobs, I really like it to be honest!

Interesting bitsa! 

Do you know what the story behind the Fender Custom Shop neck is or where it came from?

1 minute ago, thodrik said:

To me it looks like a concept piece that requires a lot of hours to make and that results in a high price. Perhaps the asking price is a means of Fodera essentially saying 'yes, we can make this bass, but it is very difficult and complicated and we are only going to do it if it is really worth our while'. The price point is probably set on the understanding that Fodera don't expect (or particularly want) to receive thousands of orders.

 

I am pretty sure you spec a Warwick, Wal or a Ritter and come to the same price eventually if you add enough options. I put Fodera in the same category as those type of custom orders in that these are not instruments designed for sale to the general public but are instruments to be acquired by a very small clientele who frankly have money to burn, for whom a ridiculously expensive bass is no different to a ridiculously expensive concept car, luxury watch etc. As a result, this type of pricing does not really irritate me whatsoever. 

Frankly, it irritates me more when I see Warwick made Sadowsky Masterbuilt basses being sold at a higher pricepoint than Sadowsky basses made by Roger Sadowsky and even that doesn't really irk me, particularly given Warwick are entirely within their rights to set whatever price point they like under the licensing agreement and Warwick masterbuilt basses don't come cheap. 

Oh I agree that Warwick have huge prices too, but most of their basses don't get insane until you start spec'ing up a custom model.  I shudder to think what a Fodera Presentation II with customisations would cost!!

But some interesting points raised here for sure, but I'd still question if they only make a 10% profit on bulding a $35k bass, there's something not quite right.  But i'll certainly have a read into why the Presentation models need to be so expensive.

3 minutes ago, funkypenguin said:

 

Fodera make a 10% profit margin on any instrument they make, which is hardly printing money Kev. They pay a decent living wage to their entire team, whereas I'm pretty sure that some of the smaller luthiers such as Shuker and Alpher (once they factor in how long each instrument takes in man hours) aren't even working for minimum wage.

 

If you want a better breakdown of their business model, the link below is a breakdown that one of the partners (Jason) did of what goes where in terms of finances. It's not all to do with them being in NYC (although it's certainly part of it).

 

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/so-many-people-are-selling-their-foderas.881417/page-3#post-12628306

 

And since someone mentioned Alembic, a 4 string series II STARTS at $35250....

http://www.alembic.com/prod/prices.html

I mean I'm not trying to argue or just attack Fodera, as they're not alone as you say!  But 10% profit margin, am I right in saying that it therefore as a starting price costs them ~$32k to make one of those Presentation II models?  If so, how??

24 minutes ago, Belka said:

Apologies, I wasn't clear when talking about Sadowsky or Fender custom shop. I meant that you don't seem to see the same level of outrage at the pricing of Sadowsky and Fender Custom shop  compared to regular J and P clones that you get when comparing Fodera and other boutique basses. 

As for Alembic, knock yourself out:

 

https://reverb.com/marketplace?product_type=bass-guitars&make=alembic&item_region=XX&sort=price|desc

 

Why do you say their business model is based on 5 figure basses? The majority of their sales are the standard line, which are made in New York and cost about the same as an American/German Sadowsky, with extremely similar spec. I have no problem if you think they're too expensive, too ugly, or underwhelming, but I don't feel it's fair to slate them for charging too much when you don't actually know anything about their business model.  

 

 

Sorry I couldn't find the mini bass there, they all seem full scale.  Can you link me??

And in fairness I am more referring to their signature/artist range like this one than their base level standard range, so it probably is unfair of me to base all on that, but a business model where they break even (this is what I know of their model, from your post) is still completely bonkers, and they should really move the shop if there is any shred of truth in that. I think their standard range prices still came in a few thousand dollars higher a piece than top end masterbuild basses from the other builders you mention.  Isnt it more like $20k for the full scale presentation model? Are they made during high rent months in NY or something?? 🙂

Edit: Just flashed up the 2022 price list, $35,200 for the Presentation II?!!

19 minutes ago, Belka said:

They're not exactly printing money. For most of their existence they barely broke even. They're making a profit now, but no-one at Fodera is getting rich. Yes, they're very expensive, but they're a lot cheaper than Alembic, who for some reason never seem to get called out on their prices on this site. The same goes for the likes of Sadowsky and the Fender Custom Shop, which are considerably easier to build than Foderas. Maybe it's the unconventional designs/topwood or the fact that Foderas tend to be played by people who elicit a reaction of 'that kind of technique leaves me cold/too many notes/why can't they just groove?' around these parts that rubs people up the wrong way. That, and the fact that they're in the 'tonewoods do matter camp'.

By all means link me to an $18k Fender/Alembic/Sadowsky mini bass? Or even a $9k one??

If it truly costs so much in NY that they only break even on 5 figure basses, their business model is completely insane.  But I just don't believe that.

Just madness.  And people will buy it, gleefully.

I don't get the travel bass trend, but I get there is a market and loads of builders are doing them now.  Saw one for $3,000 odd the other day and thought who on earth would pay that kind of price.  Little did I know.

It's hard to watch some luthiers struggle to make a name for themselves, build for little profit if any to get their names out there, and there's companies like this basically printing their own money, because they have a NY workshop.

Sounds good, honestly can't really remember watching live footage and hearing Myung before, anyone know of any good vids taken?

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I think now it has been superseded by just modelling the amp you want and going into the PA.

Certainly the case for me.  3 years amp free!

21 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

 

I dunno - 13 years later there still doesn't seem to be a gap in the market for it 😄

 

 

Nope... still struggling to see it (just like the target audience 13 years ago, I guess).

You certainly weren't their target audience!  

I think I remember them being expensive, i.e. a fully spec'd amp was a good amount more than many other Class D Amps out at the time.  And, at the end of the day, there was probably always a stock amp close enough to ticking all the boxes available.  Although, I'm seeing a lot less Markbass amps around in general these days?  They were all over the place when the Momark came out, can't remember the last time I saw anyone with one now.

16 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

 

For that to be a strong selling hook, the combination of modules would have to offer something pretty much unique. 

 

Was that the case? 

Unique to the Markbass range, certainly.  It was just the idea of choosing a power module rating, a preamp type and other things that you couldn't just buy ready made at the time.  Like I say really, a custom spec amp of sorts, within the constraints of the modules they made.

Imagine a Class A/B version of it, you may find it easier to see the benefits of  

Really quirky, they sounds fantastic too.  Think this is the model nate navarro has, or had and used for lots of videos, and it always sounded better than anything else he was using.

On 01/05/2022 at 08:55, wateroftyne said:

It sounds like a right clart on to me.

 

Just buy the amp that gives you the sound you like….

That's kinda the point??

I don't think it was ever intended that users bought multiple modules and swapped them etc.  Its a way of Markbass releasing an amp without a spec, and the buyer can spec it exactly as they want at the point of purchase, almost like a custom amp.

Great idea, but doubt it was remotely economically viable for them.

Nice catch!

Love to know the concept behind it being a headless but not being a headless at the same time!  Just aesthetics or something else?

Is that a bit cheeky??

When I saw this, I thought it was a limited edition bass and there were only 100 being made, not that the first 100 were just numbered.

3 hours ago, horrorshowbass said:

Ah yeah Amos was cool but technically Myung is the best. In my humble opinion of course Tesseract were cool, never really listened before.

Fighting talk, I don't understand half of the percussive stuff Amos pulls off.

Myung could be doing amazing things for DT I guess, it's not like you can hear him in the mix 😂

Aren't Tesseract on support?  That would be the reason why I would have bought a ticket, DT do nothing for me to be honest!

Amos is in a different league to Myung, his techniques and feel are stunning.

Re-opened sales thread as requested 👍🏻

I had 3 relay switches on different 3 Leaf pedal builds fail all within 12 months of one another, although on all occasions there was a loud pop whenever bypassing.  Get it to a tech, hopefully won't be too difficult to swap them out.