BottomEndian Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I'm in the middle of writing out a chord progression that our guitarist's come up with, and I just don't know what chord symbol to use for a couple of the chords. They're constructed simply of ascending fifths: e.g. with C as the root, you'd have C-G-D-A. (I believe it's called something like a quintal chord, but I could just be making that up.) The closest thing I can think of is something like Cmaj13 (I've gone for "maj" because the minor third and seventh really wouldn't fit in the context), but that might lead you to expect the E, B and F to be in the chord as well. And they're not. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Well, would it be Csus2 add13? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='543921' date='Jul 18 2009, 12:25 PM']Well, would it be Csus2 add13?[/quote] Gah! Of course it would! I've been looking at it for too long. Cheers, Funk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Is it also the third inversion of D7sus4? Or just Dsus4/C? Naming chords is such a weird thing sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='543927' date='Jul 18 2009, 12:41 PM']Is it also the third inversion of D7sus4? Or just Dsus4/C?[/quote] I suppose it is. Or Gsus2/C. :wacko: [quote name='The Funk' post='543927' date='Jul 18 2009, 12:41 PM']Naming chords is such a weird thing sometimes.[/quote] Yeah, a lot of the time I just go with what I "feel" fits in the context. That's the only way I can decide whether to call something Ab6 or Fm7/Ab -- look at the chords around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Another option would be "C6/9 (no 3rd)" When we write chord symbols, the inversion (ie the placing of the notes) is not directed. Although the A in this chord is effectively the 13 note of the C scale, the very term 13th would give most players the idea that it was a dominant chord which it is not as there is no Bb. So to use 6 and 9 would be clearer. The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='544054' date='Jul 18 2009, 03:24 PM']Another option would be "C6/9 (no 3rd)" When we write chord symbols, the inversion (ie the placing of the notes) is not directed. Although the A in this chord is effectively the 13 note of the C scale, the very term 13th would give most players the idea that it was a dominant chord which it is not as there is no Bb. So to use 6 and 9 would be clearer.[/quote] Thanks, Major. Trouble is with C6/9, I have the same problem as you mention with seeing a 13th -- I see the 9 and assume there's a Bb as well. Also, the A is definitely a 13th (certainly in the upper structure of the chord, voiced into the second octave); playing it as a 6th (within the first octave) muddies it up quite a bit and changes the "feel" of the chord. Minefield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 [quote name='BottomEndian' post='544083' date='Jul 18 2009, 03:59 PM']Thanks, Major. Trouble is with C6/9, I have the same problem as you mention with seeing a 13th -- I see the 9 and assume there's a Bb as well. Also, the A is definitely a 13th (certainly in the upper structure of the chord, voiced into the second octave); playing it as a 6th (within the first octave) muddies it up quite a bit and changes the "feel" of the chord. Minefield.[/quote] Actually I used the wrong term here - I should have said "voicing" rather that "inversion". The chord symbol method does not indicate the "voicing" of a chord. It simply states what the constituent notes of the harmony are at that particular moment. And writing the chord C 6 /9 would automatically remove the dominant nature of the chord so that the 9 is not allied to a b7 (dominant 7th). This is one of those anomalies of the chord symbol method (see my previous thread on anomolies etc). Yes you are right that the chord symbol I suggested ( C 6/9 no 3rd) if taken literally would give C G A D when actually you want the A an octave higher. But that would be in the "voicing" of the chord for the particular set of instruments playing. In this case its better to actually write the notes for each instrument as you intend it to be played leaving no room for interpretation. Putting the chord symbol underneath would just be a helpful crosscheck on your intentions. The chord symbol method has always been open to abuse - and a good arranger will always use it with care. The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='544110' date='Jul 18 2009, 04:35 PM']Actually I used the wrong term here - I should have said "voicing" rather that "inversion". The chord symbol method does not indicate the "voicing" of a chord. It simply states what the constituent notes of the harmony are at that particular moment. And writing the chord C 6 /9 would automatically remove the dominant nature of the chord so that the 9 is not allied to a b7 (dominant 7th). This is one of those anomalies of the chord symbol method (see my previous thread on anomolies etc). Yes you are right that the chord symbol I suggested ( C 6/9 no 3rd) if taken literally would give C G A D when actually you want the A an octave higher. But that would be in the "voicing" of the chord for the particular set of instruments playing. In this case its better to actually write the notes for each instrument as you intend it to be played leaving no room for interpretation. Putting the chord symbol underneath would just be a helpful crosscheck on your intentions. The chord symbol method has always been open to abuse - and a good arranger will always use it with care. The Major[/quote] I'm with you now. Thanks for that. I don't know why I'm particularly worrying about it -- I'm only transcribing it for my own purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) The starting point for learning to read and spell chords is to relate the notes of a voicing to the root no matter what octave they are in. This approach just gives you the actual notes of the chord, once that is established (as was pointed out by the Major) you can choose to put the notes in whatever order or octave desired to produce an effect. It's worth noting (and understanding) that intervals outside the first inversion octave are referred to as compound intervals: eg 1 3 5 7 is a first inversion maj7 chord, 2 4 6 are the notes inbetween but once outside the first octave are referred to as 9 11 13 ie compound, whereas 1 3 5 7 are always 1 3 5 7 no matter what the octave (with the exception of 10ths in bass parts or piano left hand voicings, although that's more to do with the interval) It's also worth noting that when the chord symbol reads eg F9 or F11 it assumes a dominant 7th, so if a Major 7th is required it must be denoted with the insertion of maj (or a triangle symbol, confusing I know) between the letter and the number: eg Fmaj9 or Fmaj13. The voicing of [i]your[/i] chord is quite an open one, and sounds a bit different to a simple stacked up 6/9 no third chord. It's all about flavour... To the OP I realise you probably understand most of what I've described but I thought a sort of baseline assessment might be useful for anyone else reading this... so as usual folks, if you find my explanation as clear as mud PM for more details or ask a question here Jake Edited July 21, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 Cheers, Jake. I'm in the bizarre (or maybe quite common... who knows?) situation of being absolutely comfortable reading and understanding chord symbols, but quite often struggling to decide what chord symbols to use when I'm transcribing stuff. It never helps that the stuff I'm trying to transcribe is quite harmonically dense with all sorts of fruity numbers thrown in. Actually, now I come to think of it, it's quite a lot like my relationship with German. I can read a fair bit of German, and understand a lot of spoken German, but my own spoken and written German skills are really basic. There we go. Evidence that music is indeed a language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 A lot of it is context - the chord preceding it and the chord to which it resolves. Unless you know that, you can call it what you like because it won't really matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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