Stage Pianos

[SumOne]

I've been doing some nerding on Nord Electro 73 prices new vs second hand:

 

• V1, 2001, ? Now £600
• V2, 2006 £1,400. Now £900
• V3, 2008 £1,500. Now £1,000
• V4,2012 £1,600. Now £1,300
• V5 2015 £1,700. Now £1,400
• V6 2018 £1,900. Now £1,600

 

It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of financial difference to buy new or second hand if you plan on owning for 10 years then selling as they start to de-value more once they are a few versions old. If fact, buying new is perhaps financially better in some ways. e.g.

• a 13 year old V4 today = £1,300, in 10 years it'll be worth roughly £700 (if it is ballpark equivilant to a 23 year old V1 price today), so that'll cost £600 for 10 years use.
• V7 is quite overdue, if history is any guide then it'll be about £2,200 and would be worth roughly £1,700 10 years later, so that'll cost £500 for 10 years of use.

 

A selling point of the Nord is how well known they are and how well they hold their value. I think the Viscount Legend One 73 is still my favorite though (and is a bit cheaper at £1,555), but I imagine that if I went to sell it after 10 years there would be a much smaller market and probably more devaluation than a Nord. But in an ideal world I'll still be happy with whatever I get and it'll last me longer than that. 

Edited yesterday at 12:32 by SumOne

[Hellzero]

Buying a Nord Electro 73 new is a very good idea indeed.

[LawrenceH]

I tried a lot of stage pianos before PMT closed their doors.

 

My 2p:

The Nords sound good and have great interfaces, the samples are all somehow more musical and characterful than a lot of the competition. But, the nicest Rhodes samples tonally are lacking depth/richness because the samples just aren't big enough. Keyscape absolutely runs rings round them. Likewise, the Steinway D sample shows its age which is a shame because it's nicer tonally than the bigger 'White Grand' (Steinway A). The Yamaha grand sample is better than any of Yamaha's own. One general criticism of the piano samples is lack of 'ppp' samples, they could have a softer tone at the bottom. Hammond sounds great. The key to pricing stability is their sound library, but get a model with resonance modelling. Crap actions on the electro, weighted or otherwise, passable on the stage but far from the best.

 

Yamaha YC/CP: VERY disappointing pianos, just bland digital-sounding. Shame as the organs on YC were good and the interfaces are great. Didn't like the action on the 73 or the 88.

 

 

Looking at 88 key models which I appreciate you're not sold on:

 

Yamaha p525: much better samples and action vs CP. Good if you don't want all the organ stuff

 

Roland, all the pianos sounded awfully dull except the RD2000 'German Stage' Expansion which was actually good (also nice action). The rest haven't surpassed the old 700NX IMO.

 

Kawaii: pretty good sounds, certainly musical, decent action too (88 note weighted tho). I ended up with an MP7SE. Organ/FX not as good as the Nord but the piano key/sound connection is the best of the bunch. Not light though!

 

Something I'd like to take a punt on, but haven't tried, is one of the Studiologic Numa X - either the 73 or the GT. Demos/reviews of the EPs and the downloadable Steinway D sound superb to my ears. Not sure if they have organ sounds though

Edited 18 hours ago by LawrenceH

[SumOne]

13 hours ago, LawrenceH said:

I tried a lot of stage pianos before PMT closed their doors.

 

My 2p:

The Nords sound good and have great interfaces, the samples are all somehow more musical and characterful than a lot of the competition. But, the nicest Rhodes samples tonally are lacking depth/richness because the samples just aren't big enough. Keyscape absolutely runs rings round them. Likewise, the Steinway D sample shows its age which is a shame because it's nicer tonally than the bigger 'White Grand' (Steinway A). The Yamaha grand sample is better than any of Yamaha's own. One general criticism of the piano samples is lack of 'ppp' samples, they could have a softer tone at the bottom. Hammond sounds great. The key to pricing stability is their sound library, but get a model with resonance modelling. Crap actions on the electro, weighted or otherwise, passable on the stage but far from the best.

 

Yamaha YC/CP: VERY disappointing pianos, just bland digital-sounding. Shame as the organs on YC were good and the interfaces are great. Didn't like the action on the 73 or the 88.

 

 

Looking at 88 key models which I appreciate you're not sold on:

 

Yamaha p525: much better samples and action vs CP. Good if you don't want all the organ stuff

 

Roland, all the pianos sounded awfully dull except the RD2000 'German Stage' Expansion which was actually good (also nice action). The rest haven't surpassed the old 700NX IMO.

 

Kawaii: pretty good sounds, certainly musical, decent action too (88 note weighted tho). I ended up with an MP7SE. Organ/FX not as good as the Nord but the piano key/sound connection is the best of the bunch. Not light though!

 

Something I'd like to take a punt on, but haven't tried, is one of the Studiologic Numa X - either the 73 or the GT. Demos/reviews of the EPs and the downloadable Steinway D sound superb to my ears. Not sure if they have organ sounds though

Nice one, that's very useful. 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by SumOne

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, LawrenceH said:

Something I'd like to take a punt on, but haven't tried, is one of the Studiologic Numa X - either the 73 or the GT. Demos/reviews of the EPs and the downloadable Steinway D sound superb to my ears. Not sure if they have organ sounds though

As I own the controller version of it (SL88 GT Mk2) with their Numa Player, I can confirm that the Steinway D is quite decent (very similar to the XLN Addictive Keys Studio Grand), but certainly not up to the level of the VI Labs Modern D or the VSL Synchron (or Studio) Concert D-274 or VSL Studio Concert D 1887 (love this one) or Modarrt Pianoteq 9 Steinway Model D New York and Hamburg, for instance (yes, I do have the full bundles from each company... 🤦🏻🤪😉 ).

 

I can also confirm that there are some very good organs with the Numa Player.

 

Check this, I think the guy has tried everything on the Numa X 73:

 

 

That said, a Numa X Piano 73 or 88 or GT or the MIDI controller version (SL Mk2 73 or 88 or GT), Modarrt Pianoteq 9 and an iPad will give you all the sounds needed and way more, plus an excellent integrated soundcard with ultra low latency (Numa Piano X or SL Mk2), so no need for an external soundcard.

[Hellzero]

And remember that Studiologic and Nord share the same keybed: Fatar (same company as Studiologic).

[LawrenceH]

My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Steinway in the Numa player is not the same as the downloadable update one for the Numa X. The original Numa D samples were rather lukewarmly received but the update is considered, and to my ears from comparing demos is, a substantial upgrade.

 

The keybeds for the Electro (TP100) and Stage(TP40) are also not the same as the 73 (TP110) and the 88 GT (TP400w). Supposedly they represent noticeable improvements, but I'm just going by user reports. Also the Nords aren't graded, and the Nord Stage action is for whatever reason not the same as the slightly nicer version of the TP40 on the Nord Piano (those I can confirm from my own experience).

 

How do you find the GT action? I'm not a great pianist though I did study for over 10 years, but I do have for reference a very nice and still quite well-regulated Model O that I inherited from my grandma (who was good). I've never found a digital that felt anything like the real thing, but the top Roland/Kawai portable actions do at least feel responsive and musical.

[Hellzero]

To answer your question, there are some other Steinway pianos in the Numa Player, the Steinway D is a paid option and is far better than the free ones delivered with the app.

 

I didn't say that the keybed was the same for all Nord and Studiologic, but all coming from Fatar with different models according to the series, just like you mentioned.

 

I love the Steinway Model O, it's a superb grand piano.

 

Concerning the action, here are my thoughts.

 

I had a Studiologic Numa Nero (TP/40 Wood) before the SL88 GT Mk2 and there's are some improvements (triple sensors and double escapement) with the TP/400 Wood, it's really close to a grand piano action wise, at least the ones I had the opportunity to play when I was learning it in a school.

 

I also had a Casio GP-510BP with a Bechstein grand piano keybed and I find that the TP/400 Wood is better, especially the escapement, that was too light on the Bechstein/Casio.

 

That said, I now own a Casio AP-750 and, even if the keybed is still from Bechstein, I find it lighter, more like an upright piano, but the pedals response is far better, just like the new sampling or is it because of the new amplification, but for a real grand piano, the SL88 GT Mk2 is the best to me and superior to the Kawai Responsive Hammer II that I really hated (I sent it back, on the next day, the ES 920 that I just bought for that reason) or the Roland PHA-50.

 

The keybed of the Kawai VPC1 (RM3 Grand II) didn't convince me.

 

I would like to try the Kawai Millennium III Hybrid keybed of the Novus series though...

[SumOne]

My Yamaha CK-61 sold last night so I now have £ burning a hole in my pocket! ....well, not much £ as it has funded a Kawai ES-60 that's on the way from Thomann, I think that'll do well for home use (which includes taking abuse from young kids so I didn't want anything I'd be too precious about). It leaves me the start of a stage piano fund and I've had some offers for my Akai Key 37 so that'll increase the fund once it sells.

 

So now I'm seriously hyped about what stage piano to get!

 

It'll need to be 73....and even that size is pushing it as I need to take it to weekly rehearsals and fortnightly gigs along with all my Bass gear (there's a bit of swopping around of band members duties depending on songs) in a small car (VW Polo, which often also has a guitarist and all their stuff) and stage space is usually tight. 

 

Depending on how much I can convince myself is worth spending, the main contenders are now:

 

• £2k: Nord Electro 73 semi-weighted would be the Nord for me due to size, toughness, sounds, drawbars, price (vs the Stage), resale value (£2k is stretching my budget, but the resale after 10 years is roughly £1,500 so I'm counting it almost like a loan plan - my maths is it'll be £50 per year for 10 years, the painful initial £2k is actually a £1.5k refundable deposit!). The v7 seems overdue so I'd wait for that though - either to get new or for the older second-hand versions to get cheaper. 
• £1.5k:  Viscount Legend One 73 is a decent size and weight, sounds good, good keybed (a knowledgeable online reviewer guesses it has Fatar TP-8), Organ drawbars (and lots of them!). All reviews seem to rate it highly - some a bit less so for the non-organ sounds but what I've heard all sound good to me. Perhaps it's just smoke and mirrors to make a modern thing look/feel/sound vintage gives me the impression of being something that'll still be good 30 years from now,  keeping things simple and nailing the hardware for live use and the 'bread and butter' Piano/EP/Organ sounds will stand the test of time if expectations remain that It'll just do that particular use. Main negatives are it's a bit niche and new so unlikely to be many second hand for a while and no shops to test it, it's not proven to last for years like the Nords and resale value might not be great. I think I'm pretty much sold on this though, something about it has really grabbed me, it's just a shame that testing it out isn't an option - but I guess return policies are good nowadays. 
• £850. Numa X 73, good keybed for the price, good interface, the sounds haven't blown me away (just from online reviews) the main thing that puts me off are the Organ sounds don't seem great and lack of drawbars. I kind of think this will feel 'okay - it'll do' but will feel a compromise and won't be something I'm really pleased to keep for many years, it probably isn't much of an upgrade to the Yamaha CK-61 I've just sold other than the extra octave and better keybed.

 

I've tried the Roland and Yamaha options in their showrooms and none in my price range really did it for me. The Yamaha YC 73 has slightly narrower octave width which I thought was noticeable on the CK I owned and not ideal, the sounds didn't wow me. The Roland VR-730 didn't feel a bit improvement over the CK-61, and the V Stage 76 is out of my price range, and both seemed massive -  almost deliberately made to take up as much space as possible! 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by SumOne

[Hellzero]

You should try to find a way to play the 3 of them, at the same place would be a great plus, but I think this will be very hard...

 

Online videos offer a good way to have a rough idea, but the best is to try them on your own.

 

If you take a Mac with you each time you rehearse and gig, there's a fourth option:

 

A Studiologic SL 73 Mk2 or a Numa X Piano 73 (quite redundant as you'll have everything almost twice,see below) coupled to Pianoteq 9 (choose the version for your needs) and Organteq 9 if you need pipe organ sounds (sadly not yet available for iPad), all that will be under your £2k limit, even with the full bundle, excellently sounding and way more versatile.

 

Check these links:

 

https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq_overview

 

https://www.modartt.com/organteq_overview

 

[SumOne]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

You should try to find a way to play the 3 of them, at the same place would be a great plus, but I think this will be very hard...

 

Online videos offer a good way to have a rough idea, but the best is to try them on your own.

 

If you take a Mac with you each time you rehearse and gig, there's a fourth option:

 

A Studiologic SL 73 Mk2 or a Numa X Piano 73 (quite redundant as you'll have everything almost twice,see below) coupled to Pianoteq 9 (choose the version for your needs) and Organteq 9 if you need pipe organ sounds (sadly not yet available for iPad), all that will be under your £2k limit, even with the full bundle, excellently sounding and way more versatile.

 

Check these links:

 

https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq_overview

 

https://www.modartt.com/organteq_overview

 

 

Yeah, it would be great to try them out side by side. Andertons are the nearest shop to me (about 1hr away) that sell the Nord and Numa so I might go on a road trip. As far as I can tell there is only a single Viscont Legend One for sale in the UK (Gear4Music have one in stock, but their shop in York with is a >12hr round trip from Chichester) so I think it'll need to be an online purchase (in which case Thomann are cheaper) if that's what I go for and prepare to use the return policy.

 

I tried the MIDI thing via an M-Audio keyboard (which I've since sold) but it turned into a bit of a liability live. There was latency but odly it was only occasional, I'd optimise everything on the Laptop, ASIO , Airplane mode, close all other programmes etc. and use it exclusively for music but it still seemed to have a mind of it's own at the most crucial moments (perhaps due to the keyboard, interface, software plugins, DAW, Laptop processing power or RAM....I dunno what the cause was - a lot of variables and potential points of failure felt part of the issue. I then got a good gaming Laptop (still Windows not Mac) and UA Volt interface and that seemed to work well at home, but almost every time I turn it on some sort of software needs updating and that makes me nervous, and things like Organ drawbars and effect knobs being mapped differently to different presets with nothing on the Keyboard clearly indicating what's happening seems potentially confusing without looking at the Laptop screen which I'd rather not do live, and just the live practicalities of where to put the Laptop and interface and relying on USB cables etc just seems a bit of a faff and liability. But yeah, in theory I can see that a decent MIDI keyboard and Laptop gives almost unlimited sound options and upgrades and I am sure it works well for lots of people and probably is the future, perhaps I should give it another chance, I think having a good dedicated Macbook would probably be needed to be more certain of reliability and low latency.

Edited 1 hour ago by SumOne

[Hellzero]

My "studio" computer is a Minisforum AI X1 Pro Windows 11 Pro based with 96 Gb of DDR5 5600 RAM (yes 96, it's not a mistake) and two 2 Tb SSDs (M.2 2280 PCIe4.0) with an AMD Ryzen™ AI 9 HX 370 CPU, so a super powerful PC, competing with the most powerful Macs, running any big sampling library super easily.

 

I'm using a Windows based PC, because I bought so many softwares under Windows that it would have cost a small fortune to migrate to an Apple environment and I've never been a fan of their planned obsolescence.

 

I also have an iPad Air 13 M3 (because Android tablets really suck) which is working flawlessly with Pianoteq 9 as the app was designed for it and as it is a modelling technology, not sampling, it is very light on RAM, ROM and CPU usage.

 

And I'm using Newzik for the scores tweaking and reading, as, as opposed to forScore, it works in any environment without any issue thanks to a clever approach.

 

PS: My soundcard is an old Steinberg UR-RT2 with really low latency.