Need help with an Aria Sinsonido bass electronics

[Richard R]

On 06/03/2023 at 20:12, Woodinblack said:

They aren't that rare (unless there is something odd about yours). I played one at my local guitar shop, and seen another couple.

 

it would be hard to get a circuit as aria don put them out although there is the thread here

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61857

where it shows it should be a reasonable easy thing to diagnose if you do electronics

 

Gosh!   I started that thread on SOS, and I am struggling to believe it was 2018 when I first borrowed that bass and started to "play" ! I would have hoped in 5 years my playing would have improved more!

 

I am not an electronis engineer, but if it helps anyone I have posted the original and final  circuit diagrams below.

 

Original:

 

Final:

 

[sandy_r]

55 minutes ago, Richard R said:

 

Gosh!   I started that thread on SOS, and I am struggling to believe it was 2018 when I first borrowed that bass and started to "play" ! I would have hoped in 5 years my playing would have improved more!

 

I am not an electronis engineer, but if it helps anyone I have posted the original and final  circuit diagrams below.

 

 

hi Richard 

good to meet up on here!

I've read your article on SoS and admired the teamwork there - and your persistence, seeing the project thro' for what seems like an intensive couple of months

 

Sadly, it appears that these Aria PCB designs leave a LOT to be desired, as I found out when I bought my Sinsonido second-hand about 15 years ago.  I searched online and found a good many other people also had PCB issues, none of whom could find quality fixes.  I wasn't as patient as you, tho', I just ripped out the PCB and built my own circuit (which I posted to a TB 'Sinsonido Club' thread, shhh, back in 2014 !)

 

There are some very questionable design 'features' of the original circuit, and having read the details unearthed in your SoS thread, I'm glad I just replaced it, rather than repaired

 

The electrolytic caps connected from signal to ground on the guitar output are just bizarre!

(I have to question your repairer's comment about these being 0.22uF - the evidence strongly points to these original caps being 22uF - across the output!)

 

 

Anyway, your 'team' has achieved stirling work in informing the Sinsonido Bass community of info which Aria seems reluctant to provide (smart move there, Aria!), and you ended up with a Sinsonido PCB which has been restored to its full ideosyncratic glory!

 

Thanks for posting your schematics here - I wasn't sure about copying them to this thread, so I just referred to SoS earlier, instead, so people could find with Mr/Ms Google

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by sandy_r

[Richard R]

I can take less than zero credit for the bass repair! The wonderful Folderol on that forum did the work. It does seem a strange design all round! 

 

I was very active on SoS for a few years when I did a lot of FOH and live recording and mixing. Once I had borrowed that bass though, and had a first lesson with a bassist at church who said "yep, you're a bass player ", I was hooked.

My friend had offered to give me that bass a couple of years back, but his son had already nabbed it. I hope I still have at least first refusal if he ever sells it

 

[sandy_r]

16 minutes ago, Richard R said:

I can take less than zero credit for the bass repair! The wonderful Folderol on that forum did the work. It does seem a strange design all round! 

 

I was very active on SoS for a few years when I did a lot of FOH and live recording and mixing. Once I had borrowed that bass though, and had a first lesson with a bassist at church who said "yep, you're a bass player ", I was hooked.

My friend had offered to give me that bass a couple of years back, but his son had already nabbed it. I hope I still have at least first refusal if he ever sells it

 

 

ah but every team needs a progress-chaser (facilitator?)!  It was a group effort

 

Hah - I've been in a few communities - one day you're helpfully picking up a cable that's fallen on the floor, and next week you're running the sound desk!

 

Don't even look at a guitar!!!!

 

I'm afraid to be the bearer of bad news:  your friend's son chose that bass ...say your farewells to it now!

 

I hope you're enjoying your journey among the lower registers ...and someday, just like me, you'll be walking past a shop window, and there it'll be - the Sinsonido with your name on it 😎

 

[GetFletch]

On 05/10/2023 at 22:21, sandy_r said:

 

...headphones recommended...

 

Tone: flat (no cut)

 

 

Tone: max treble cut

 

 

Tone: max bass cut

 

 

my Sinsonido with DIY replacement onboard preamp (JFET buffer amplifier, 2 original sensor i/p, Vol to mid), recorded via Palmer Pocket Bass preamp, EQ flat, no effects, direct into Samsung Tab. Strings plucked with side of index finger

 

Excuse hurried recording and wayward playing!

 

Sandy - thanks for uploading the soundclips.  Your Sinsonido certainly sounds more powerful across the whole dynamic range than mine does.  The treble cut clip is a great sounding tone.  

[GetFletch]

On 05/10/2023 at 17:27, sandy_r said:

 

hi Fletch (?)

 

I'd be happy to help out if I can - I have a couple of questions:

 - are you looking for a repair of the existing Sinsonido PCB, or a copy of my own replacement circuit (FET vol/tone pre using both sensors, mono, no phones)?;

 - what's your approx timescale?

 

I could make a copy of my own circuit, test it on my Sinsonido and send it out (all just at cost - simple circuit, light weight); I can't undertake to repair a Sinsonido PCB - but I believe there is a thread either on TB or S*und*nS*und where someone has managed to replace the duff part(s) and get the PCB operational again (repairer also posted the schematic)

 

I am actively sourcing & building a rack-based preamp for myself at present - it's likely to keep me occupied into the long dark tea-time of the Solstice, but I may well welcome a break, if I make good progress

 

If it is my circuit you'd like built, and my availability is an issue, I'd be happy for you to get a tech-skilled friend to just use my circuit and build it instead

 

let me know what you decide

 

The video from Charlie Chandler's FB sounds good - string noise suggests roundwound strings, which seems unusual on fretless.  After I get my first Bass Bash out of the way, this weekend, I'll try to upload a short audio clip of my Sinsonido here, for comparison

 

Cheers

 

 

Hey Sandy - thanks for getting back to me.  Having listened to your sound clips, I would definitely like to have a copy of your replacement circuit.  I haven't played my Sinonido in anger in years tbh, so there is no pressure whatsoever on timeframes.  

 

How would you like to proceed?  You can contact me directly on gogetfletch-at-gee-mail-dot-com

[sandy_r]

40 minutes ago, GetFletch said:

Hey Sandy - thanks for getting back to me.  Having listened to your sound clips, I would definitely like to have a copy of your replacement circuit.  I haven't played my Sinonido in anger in years tbh, so there is no pressure whatsoever on timeframes.  

 

How would you like to proceed? 

 

thanks for kind words re. the replacemnt cct sound!

 

there's been some progress over the last week delving more into the odd design of the original PCB - talking with Alain and Richard, two other BC folks with Sinsonido PCB fault experience, has highlighed 2 major issues with the circuit: component aging and quirky design choices limiting the original performance

 

having looked at the original circuit over the weekend, i think it may just be possible to repurpose a starndard module and add a few components to customise the input/output connections.  I've ordered a few basic parts to try this out, hopefully next week, eB*y permitting, so i'll report back on the options then, if i may - this could be a quicker, more modular, route and hopefully give improved performance comparable with my own replacement circuit

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by sandy_r

[GetFletch]

3 hours ago, sandy_r said:

 

thanks for kind words re. the replacemnt cct sound!

 

there's been some progress over the last week delving more into the odd design of the original PCB - talking with Alain and Richard, two other BC folks with Sinsonido PCB fault experience, has highlighed 2 major issues with the circuit: component aging and quirky design choices limiting the original performance

 

having looked at the original circuit over the weekend, i think it may just be possible to repurpose a starndard module and add a few components to customise the input/output connections.  I've ordered a few basic parts to try this out, hopefully next week, eB*y permitting, so i'll report back on the options then, if i may - this could be a quicker, more modular, route and hopefully give improved performance comparable with my own replacement circuit

 

Sandy - that sounds encoraging.  I am happy for you to use the original PCB in my Sinsonido as the guinea pig and indemnifying you if it all goes Pete Tong  Just let me know.

[sandy_r]

45 minutes ago, GetFletch said:

Sandy - that sounds encoraging.  I am happy for you to use the original PCB in my Sinsonido as the guinea pig and indemnifying you if it all goes Pete Tong  Just let me know.

 

hah - what could possibly go Tong?!? 😭

 

...that's a very kind (and very brave!) offer re. your PCB, thank you!  I'm hoping that i can come up with a drop-in replacement which ideally could be reconnected without soldering - if it works satisfactorily (thats a big 'if'), it might be useful to swap it for your board, to learn more about why they keel over so readily ...and possibly then repair your board before return

 

but first, some experimentation! 🤓

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by sandy_r

[GetFletch]

22 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

hah - what could possibly go Tong?!? 😭

 

...that's a very kind (and very brave!) offer re. your PCB, thank you!  I'm hoping that i can come up with a drop-in replacement which ideally could be reconnected without soldering - if it works satisfactorily (thats a big 'if'), it might be useful to swap it for your board, to learn more about why they keel over so readily ...and possibly then repair your board before return

 

but first, some experimentation! 🤓

 

Makes sense.  Keep us posted ..... 

[Aalin]

HI Everybody
Coming back this week to continue being a part of that thread.
- Sandy, thank’s for the shema of the jack for the connection with the 47 ohms resistor.
If I’m not wrong, as they are parallel resistor, that will make around 23,5 ohms. Isn’t that too low as a total resistor ? may be higher better ?
I have a potentiometer somewhere at home, I will try to make a cable with it as a resistor, and test that idea, but I am a bit septic, because when I’m using some pedal with an input potentiometer witch seems to be the first thing after the jack, some of them make the sound cranking. Not all of them. The Francis Deck HPF 3 doesn’t.
However let’s give a try of that idea.
- Richard R, I’ve red the post of SOS before opening that thread, with great interest, but the discussion was for a tone control that was not working. Is my problem the same as describe ? I have a boomy sound and sometimes cranking the amp, too much output level.
Does my problem comes from the preamp, or is it the normal sound of the Sinso because of the use of one jack Headphone and amp ?
I’m not strong enough in electronic to understand the shema of the preamp.
- For the moment, I stay using the Francis Deck HPF 3, having the Lace Sensor pickup like a car spare tire, and either thinking if I’m ready or not to try the SOS thread with a multimeter,  that will be a hard job for me. Or waiting …  some news ideas comming in the futur …
 Have a nice day.

[sandy_r]

2 hours ago, Aalin said:

HI Everybody
Coming back this week to continue being a part of that thread.
- Sandy, thank’s for the shema of the jack for the connection with the 47 ohms resistor.
If I’m not wrong, as they are parallel resistor, that will make around 23,5 ohms. Isn’t that too low as a total resistor ? may be higher better ?
I have a potentiometer somewhere at home, I will try to make a cable with it as a resistor, and test that idea, but I am a bit septic, because when I’m using some pedal with an input potentiometer witch seems to be the first thing after the jack, some of them make the sound cranking. Not all of them. The Francis Deck HPF 3 doesn’t.
However let’s give a try of that idea.
- Richard R, I’ve red the post of SOS before opening that thread, with great interest, but the discussion was for a tone control that was not working. Is my problem the same as describe ? I have a boomy sound and sometimes cranking the amp, too much output level.
Does my problem comes from the preamp, or is it the normal sound of the Sinso because of the use of one jack Headphone and amp ?
I’m not strong enough in electronic to understand the shema of the preamp.
- For the moment, I stay using the Francis Deck HPF 3, having the Lace Sensor pickup like a car spare tire, and either thinking if I’m ready or not to try the SOS thread with a multimeter,  that will be a hard job for me. Or waiting …  some news ideas comming in the futur …
 Have a nice day.

 

hi Alain

 

apologies, the schema is a bit small - no, the 2 resistors only join at the signal wire going to the amp.  Their other ends are joined separately to the stereo jack connections for Tip and Ring

 

the purpose of the 2 resistors is to provide a 'passive mixer' for the 2 outputs from the ICs, so that your amp will receive the signal from both bridge mics instead of only 1 (a problem which we believe is happening in the original design).  47 ohms should be sufficient to stop the output of one IC making too much load on the other, without reducing the signals to the amp very much

 

now, the question of how different people's pcb faults sound - it seems from the tests done in Richard's SoS thread, that the electrolytic capacitors on the PCB are 'drying' because of age and/or heat.  They will all probably change over different lengths of time on the different basses: some people hear very 'boomy' bass, some find their Tone control has no effect - on mine, the tone control caused loud oscillation at any position other than 'flat' EQ

 

so - it seems there are 2 different issues with the Sinsonido:

 1) loss of 1 bridge mic output, because of strange mono/stereo switching, between headphones and amp;

 2) electrical breakdown in the activity of some capacitors (with unpredictable audio symptoms)

 

i think that a complete fix for the Sinsonido PCB must try to correct both issues, 1) and 2)

 

i have been looking at possible ways to replace the original circuit with a combination of a simple 'off the shelf' preamp and a few components to interface the special requirements of the bridge electrets, a mono output to guitar, and, if possible, keep the headphone output available also

 

it would be good if you are able to try this 2x47 ohm schema and see if it improves the balance of signals from each end of the bridge - but it may be that some 'dry' capacitors will still be causing audio problems, and if so that would need either some new caps ...or just a different circuit

 

i have ordered some components to test a different circuit and will report the results here

 

in the meantime, please feel free to ask for more info on your own PCB problem

 

salut

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by sandy_r

[Aalin]

Many thank’s Sandy to pass so much time to this problem.
I will try the 47 resistor and will report here after.

Do you know a link where I could order those resistor ?

Could be a link in UK or France. Never mind.
I’m a bit lost in the different resistor there is.
Here is a shop I found in France.

https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/recherche?search_query=résistance+47+ohms
Thank’s again for all. Merci beaucoup.
To be continued.
Alain

[sandy_r]

On 10/10/2023 at 15:09, Aalin said:

...

when I’m using some pedal with an input potentiometer witch seems to be the first thing after the jack, some of them make the sound cranking. Not all of them.

...

 

...a quick question Alain - are you using the EDB-1, or the EDB-2? Thanks

 

[Aalin]

Sorry

I should have been more precise:

I have 2, they are the old one:

EDM1 mono, accept easily the Sinso without cranking, using his hpf (called anti feedback range) at 130 hz.

EDB1, 2 channel, where I made two tests:

mono and stereo separeting the two channel of the sinso with a special jack.

In both test, cranking the sound even if  puting the gain nob quite low or the level of the sinso also quite low

And curiously, the EDM1 who has no gain nob doesn't crank.

Tell me if that help or need some more explications

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, Aalin said:

Sorry

I should have been more precise:

I have 2, they are the old one:

EDM1 mono, accept easily the Sinso without cranking, using his hpf (called anti feedback range) at 130 hz.

EDB1, 2 channel, where I made two tests:

mono and stereo separeting the two channel of the sinso with a special jack.

In both test, cranking the sound even if  puting the gain nob quite low or the level of the sinso also quite low

And curiously, the EDM1 who has no gain nob doesn't crank.

Tell me if that help or need some more explications

 

no apologies necessary!

 

Thanks for this info, I can look through those manuals and then hopefully ask some more questions 

 

...very nice looking preamps, btw!

 

à plus vite

 

[sandy_r]

Status update:

Components & perf 'baseboard' have arrived - just waiting on delivery of pcb for off-the-shelf design to hold the op-amp gain section

 

The plan is to replicate the Aria custom interface to the 2 electret mics in the bridge, the tone control, and the split output vol controls (which can feed the 2-mic-mixed-to-mono output either to headphones, using Tip/Ring/Shield jack, or to amp, using standard Tip/Shield jack guitar cable)

 

The aim is to achieve similar op-amp operation and functionality to that originally intended by Aria, but now with correct dual-mic output to amp, approximately halved current draw from the battery, and avoidance of the more-limited-lifespan components

 

I'll build and test a trial version in my own Sinsonido and then report back on results

 

[GetFletch]

On 16/10/2023 at 23:52, sandy_r said:

Status update:

Components & perf 'baseboard' have arrived - just waiting on delivery of pcb for off-the-shelf design to hold the op-amp gain section

 

The plan is to replicate the Aria custom interface to the 2 electret mics in the bridge, the tone control, and the split output vol controls (which can feed the 2-mic-mixed-to-mono output either to headphones, using Tip/Ring/Shield jack, or to amp, using standard Tip/Shield jack guitar cable)

 

The aim is to achieve similar op-amp operation and functionality to that originally intended by Aria, but now with correct dual-mic output to amp, approximately halved current draw from the battery, and avoidance of the more-limited-lifespan components

 

I'll build and test a trial version in my own Sinsonido and then report back on results

 

Bon chance .... 

[sandy_r]

48 minutes ago, GetFletch said:

Bon chance .... 

 

thanks ...could do with some better eyes, too

 

btw - which Sinsonido version do you have?: V+T pointing down, V+T pointing up, V+T/B stacked, pointing up

 

cheers

 

 

[sandy_r]

...quick update to say that a prototype replacement board for the original Aria version now has all the parts soldered in, and wiring is almost finished

 

Once complete, the board will be 'beta tested' and if satisfactory I'll post the schematic, and then make a copy (for @GetFletch, if their Sinsonido version matches)

 

[GetFletch]

Hi Sandy - apologies for the delay in getting back to you.  I've been away.  I enclose a photo of my Sinsonido fretless bass.  My volume and tone pots are on the top.

 

Good to hear that you have wired the board.  Let us know how the testing is going.  I am happy to be a guinea pig for you beta testing.

On 18/10/2023 at 22:21, sandy_r said:

 

thanks ...could do with some better eyes, too

 

btw - which Sinsonido version do you have?: V+T pointing down, V+T pointing up, V+T/B stacked, pointing up

 

cheers

 

 

 

 

[sandy_r]

4 hours ago, GetFletch said:

Hi Sandy - apologies for the delay in getting back to you.  I've been away.  I enclose a photo of my Sinsonido fretless bass.  My volume and tone pots are on the top.

 

Good to hear that you have wired the board.  Let us know how the testing is going.  I am happy to be a guinea pig for you beta testing.

 

 

 

No worries - thanks for the info & testing offer

 

The board is complete and functions as hoped, so i'm pleased with initial impressions. There are some practical issues with connectors to which i need to give additional thought now - i want to make the board 'drop-in' as far as possible to ease installation and the very fine wires in the Sinsonido are going to be a challenge in that respect

 

Beta testing for this prototype is all lined up thanks, and hopefully will take place as soon as i've sorted the connector issues

 

Would you be able to post a photo of the back of your Sinsonido with the 2 (i believe) cover plates removed giving a reasonably sharp/lit image of the existing board & controls in place?  I'll need to see what will have to be done to adapt the new circuit layout into your version of the Sinsonido

 

Thanks

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by sandy_r

[sandy_r]

This new circuit is awaiting beta testing in another similar version Sinsonido, to confirm that it will operate as required, after independent installation

 

The circuit provides what must surely have been the expected operation of the original design, but with more reliable capacitors (no suspect caps to cause oscillation/distorted output, as they age), and without losing the output from one electret mic when connecting output to amp, compared to headphones.  It also reduces current consumption to <5mA, doubling battery life

 

Some of the physical dimensions of the Aria wires and the control mounting are challenging and need some further attention, to ease the installation process - tbc

 

In the meantime, here are a couple of preliminary audio clips of the prototype board in my Sinsonido, recorded direct from the bass into my Android tablet.  Note that the Aria Tone control design, retained from the original PCB design, is a simple 'Treble cut' arrangement as used in passive basses, so one clip is the unaltered output, and the other is with tone control at max treble-cut. 

The bass is fretless, with medium-guage groundwound strings

It should also be noted that the circuit on the new board retains the same core audio characteristics, using the same IC chip, as the original, without some of the questionable design 'features' (eg. extraneous electrolytic capacitors added in parallel to the ac signal output).  The clips will sound to have either slightly more bass, or more treble, than your Sinsonido because this new circuit mixes both mic outputs within the electronics, rather than losing 1 channel when connecting to an amp via a standard jack to jack cable

 

New board, Vol ~75%, Tone flat:

 

 

New board, Vol ~ 75%, Tone max treble-cut:

 

(decent headphones advised, for best audio listening)

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by sandy_r

[GetFletch]

Sandy - here are the photos requested.  I hope these are satifactory for you.  Please feel free to email me directly ([email protected]) and I will be able to email a higher resolution photo.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by GetFletch

[sandy_r]

37 minutes ago, GetFletch said:

Sandy - here are the photos requested.  I hope these are satifactory for you

 

Thanks, these photos are fine - interesting to see that this later revision of their PCB has already had some of the problematical capacitors replaced with a more reliable type

 

My current replacement board was designed to match the earlier versions of the Sinsonido Bass PCB, where the V & T controls are fixed to the preamp board - i see that this later version has moved V & T to a sub-board, and has added headphone and (9V ?) DC jacks to the circuit on the main board

 

I suspect that the basic audio circuit remains the same and, practically, my replacement board could be adapted if there will be space for the 2 new jacks plus connectors for the 2 moved controls

 

Let me get the current prototype for the earlier versions confirmed in a separate installation first and then i'll ask for a couple more photo views of your boards to work out the adaptation needed

 

In the meantime, could you describe the fault symptom(s) you've got with the electronics here, please?  

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by sandy_r