Where to study Jazz in the UK?

[SevenSeas]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Hey everyone, I'm interested in peoples different opinions about these music colleges, if you have been to one of them than that would be fantastic because you would be able to give me a honest opinion.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]* Please note, I don't want a thread of lots of people suggesting to avoid university/music college because the paper is useless, waste of money etc because I'm not here to have that discussion... no offence. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]* If you could put the entry standard in a non-discriminatory way that would be great, even though all the colleges are fantasic (I just want to be realistic)[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]* I got into Goldsmiths this year but decided to decline the offer as I wanted to re-apply and go for jazz.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I have been playing electric bass for seven years and double bass for about 15 months, so nearly 2 years by the time I audition but I have no idea if I'll get into any college as the standard is so high. (Would prefer to study double bass as first instrument)[/font][/color]


[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]RAM. (Not really an option for me personally, as they don't take electric bass, really high standard) RNCM (don't do jazz) an RSA (possible too far away) [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]_________________________[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Guildhall.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Trinity.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Leeds College of Music.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Royal Welsh College of Music.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Birmingham Conservatoire. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]__________________________[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Many thanks all! All opinions welcome and helpful![/font][/color]

[blueburstbass93]

I currently study at Trinity, though I applied for Birmingham as well. I really enjoy my course, I am also an electric player who has picked up double in the past few years and though my principal study is double I play both about 50/50. I was planning to audition at leeds if I didn't get in at either trinity or birmingham, you don't have to apply till later because its through UCAS not CUKAS but I am told that it is a good course, if not nearly as good as it was a few years back. I didn't apply at guildhall because if you study Jazz you have to do classical as well but I know some very good players who study there. I don't officially know but I think Leeds is the easiest to get into, royal welsh the second and birmingham the third, not sure about trinity and guildhall.

[Mr Lizard]

Do you know if any of them do part time or evening courses?

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='blueburstbass93' timestamp='1368732003' post='2080918']
I currently study at Trinity, though I applied for Birmingham as well. I really enjoy my course, I am also an electric player who has picked up double in the past few years and though my principal study is double I play both about 50/50. I was planning to audition at leeds if I didn't get in at either trinity or birmingham, you don't have to apply till later because its through UCAS not CUKAS but I am told that it is a good course, if not nearly as good as it was a few years back. I didn't apply at guildhall because if you study Jazz you have to do classical as well but I know some very good players who study there. I don't officially know but I think Leeds is the easiest to get into, royal welsh the second and birmingham the third, not sure about trinity and guildhall.
[/quote]

Thank you very much! Really helpful, good to know about the applying times as well!

Thats made it a lot clearer, I think my preference would be;

1. Trinity.
2. Royal Welsh.
3. Leeds.

All are great courses so I would be happy to get on to any. What were your audition pieces? Did you audition on both electric and double? (Also you can DM if thats easier.

Cheers,

[chaypup]

I don't have direct experience but 5 members of my band were/are at RWCMD and they only have good things to say about it.
Loads of work for jazz bassists going in Cardiff too - there's only about 3 on the scene sharing it all between them!

[uncle psychosis]

A friend of mine from school / youth jazz orchestras studied jazz on double bass at Birmingham Conservatoire and now makes a living as a gigging/recording bassist. Last time I heard from him he was in New York and was doing well for himself. Obviously thats a very unscientific sample of one (very talented) individual!

[SevenSeas]

Thanks for all your comments, they all sound awesome!

[mtroun]

Ok here we go... lengthy post (and bear in mind my views may be a little blunt but I'm just trying to communicate as realistically as possible my perceptions) I am also from the South West, Cornwall specifically.

I went to Goldsmiths for my undergrad (2005-2008) and studied privately with Simon Woolf who lives nearby. It's also very close by Trinity where there's a good community of jazz students and home to the Amersham Arms which has recently been programming some high quality jazz gigs. I loved living in London at the time and going to see big names at the gigs etc.

I regret now that I didn't get more involved in the jazz scene in London and go to jams etc. but then I was only just starting out with jazz at the time. In my naive way I have gradually made up for it, though I would say the key thing is get stuck in, talk to people at gigs, avoid being in awe of great players as they are people too and normally pretty down to earth. Don't just go to big name gigs but go to jams and little gigs etc.

I did my masters at Royal Welsh College (2010-2012). The standard at Welsh College has got considerably better in recent years and there is a reasonable local scene. The local gigs I don't really believe what's posted above about loads of work for bass players, you're basically either 'in' or 'out' and the same people tend to be in the same bands. Ironically it's much easier to get onto a masters course (and the standard is lower) than the undergrad because of the selective nature of the undergrad course - they take on 6-8 musicians a year, i.e. one whole band, though there have been years with more than one drummer or bass player if people have dropped out. I feel the RWCMD course is very personalised - not much in the way of classes (but if you look at the history of jazz education, that's rarely anyone's main motivation for studying jazz) but with a good core of 1 to 1 tuition (with some very good tutors, especially Nick Weldon, Iain Ballamy, Huw Warren, Martin France, Dave Cliff, Geoff Simkins) and a culture of improvement among the students themselves (important!). I attended as a postgraduate but mostly hung with the undergrads as they were more serious about practicing (many of the post grads were doing it to get the qualification) hanging out and jamming etc. Where the course falls down is maybe the over emphasis on 'creativity' as opposed to simply getting your s*** down and learning to play changes etc. I feel that's why some of the RWCMD graduates I've heard who studied a while ago lacked the basic skills I would expect from a jazz player. The situation has changed a lot in recent years, mainly because the quality of students entering is higher and some students encouraged a fashion for studying with (and occasionally doing gigs with) top players from London.

I'm still in Cardiff but doing teacher training and a bit out of the loop in terms of going to gigs, hanging with musicians etc. This is a key thing that maybe isn't mentioned when thinking about where you're going to study but it's important to actually be part of a community (that's what gets you gigs!) and I can testify to the fact that now I'm not seen at the gigs and in the pub I'm not getting booked for gigs! So in that sense Cardiff and Birmingham may be better places than London if you're less well off, due to the considerably smaller cost of living.

Now onto my perceptions of other colleges. This is 2nd or third hand knowledge mainly.

I have a few friends at Birmingham Conservatoire and I've visited once. They take on a much larger cohort than RWCMD (something like 30 in a year) and have a very good group of tutors. In terms of bass there are the excellent Mark Hodgson and Arnie Somogyi teaching bass plus trumpeter and sometimes bassist Percy Pursglove. Dave Holland also visits twice a year (and gives all the bass students a half hour lesson). The larger cohort means it may be harder to stand out, but I hear there's something of a shortage of bassists from my mates. Another key feature of having more musicians are more jamming opportunities, a more varied scene (not so much of the same faces, though ultimately every college has its 'go to guys') and the opportunity to put together larger ensembles. Birmingham isn't the prettiest place but perhaps because of that, gigs locally seem to have a large number of students there (less 'bailing' than is typical of Welsh College) and a stronger sense of community than Welsh Coll. The overall thrust of the course in general is more 'straight-ahead' than Welsh College and students who come out of Birmingham tend to be pretty hot changes players as its considered an essential element of the course (and in my opinion, that is no bad thing)

I have friends at RAM, Trinity and Guildhall as well. The main thing with London colleges are their high entry standards. RAM takes on 5-8 students a year and is fed mostly by students from its junior course. Trinity attracts many of the RAM hopefuls and has a fearsome reputation on entry standards (my very good pianist friend was a bit gutted he didn't get in but he's really happy he went to Birmingham now). Most entries to these colleges are not 18 years old, as the standard is simply too high and people re-apply!
Guildhall is something of a special case as you would be required to study classical double bass alongside jazz. Could be useful but personally I don't necessarily feel studying both is necessary and it's bound to put off some fine players. You can audition on electric bass (at least Tom Farmer did and look at him now) but the standard is again fearsome.

Leeds has developed something of a reputation as the poor man's choice of music college (though so has Welsh Coll and trust me, the standard is impressive) though I know some impressive players who are at or went to Leeds. Many go on to study post grad at London colleges. They take on a lot of students and the standard varies I believe. Leeds is very cheap to live in and has a lot of good music on.

I think the key thing to bear in mind with all these places is that while many young musicians obsess about which college they can get into, once you're in the professional world it matters very little where you went or even if you went to a college at all. There's no reason that you can't access the tutors at the various colleges and get private lessons (and I would recommend you do really if you want a good chance of getting into a college) and indeed the main reason for getting onto a course is that the government will fund you to get lessons and practice for 3-4 years, with other musicians to inspire you and create music with you! Going on an undergraduate music course, like I did, is not a bad option especially if you're streetwise about who you can get lessons with in the local area and go out and seek fellow musicians. Plenty of professional musicians (saxophonist George Crowley is an example) do an undergrad at university in another subject while studying their instrument hard and then go onto postgraduate study at a London college.

If, like a lot of us, you're mad keen on jazz and can't imagine yourself doing anything else than I would do the following things:

1. Get a lesson with a tutor at a London college (go and see a gig while you're up there): Steve Watts would be a good choice. Or if you have a local jazz club, try and get lessons with visiting bass players

2. Audition for every single college you can and see how you do.

3. If you're not accepted by any, keep practicing and try again.

4. If you get accepted by a college, but not the one you really want, then you need to weigh up that decision. My friend didn't get into Trinity, RAM, Guildhall or Birmingham when he was in Year 13 auditioning. The next year after a year of practice he got accepted by all of them and chose RAM. Alternatively, take the example of my other friend who was dead set on a London college. He doesn't regret that he accepted his offer from Birmingham. I still believe he's on course to have a great career because he's worked hard while studying at Birmingham.

Sorry for the length of the post but I thought my perspective might be helpful and hopefully fairly realistic. Good luck!

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[SevenSeas]

mtroun

Thanks for the post, it wasn't too long at all! Told me everything I needed to know and a lot more! (which is great) I think if anything it proves that I have a lots of work to do!

I currently have a jazz double bass tutor in Bath called Greg Cordez and he is a great player and tutor, going all the way to London for a lesson isn't necessarily an option but it might be something I have to do, to get a realistic view of where I need to go as a player.

Also it's difficult about places as i've taken one gap year already, (next year would be two gap years) if I didn't get into a jazz college and then i'd have to apply on my third year, it's a tough decision.

Also thanks a lot, so helpful!