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VTypeV4

Yamaha 02R Digital Mixing Desk..

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All good stuff there, Al - particularly love the tape machine.. B)

I assume you're pleased with your ML - I've done a few things on my 5K now - no recording though, just mixes, although I really can't fault mine at all. It just kind of ticks all the boxes that a premium console should without difficulty or drama. I can't say it offers a great deal of sonic character but it's exceptionally clean and 'transparent' which allows the detail in a mix to shine through - I don't feel there's any 'smearing' or that it imparts any unpleasant sonic artifacts whatsoever..

How do you think your 3000 compares to the Yamaha?

Personally vs my 5000, I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Without meaning to sit on the fence, I think they're different beasts and offer different features (plus my limited outboard is a consideration) so how I approach a mix on the ML is different than that I would on the 02Rs. I should take the same song and do a mix on both then A/B the results maybe..

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Hey Matt,

How do I rate the ML3000?

Quite simply, it's the best sounding analogue desk I've ever used. I've had a Mackie Project 8 buss, numerous Soundcraft Spirit Studio, Soundcraft Ghosts, Soundtracs MRX, Soundtracs PC Inline, Soundcraft 200B, Allen & Heath GS3000.

The GS3000 which was kind of the studio version of these 8-channel modular desks didn't sound as good as this (from what I remember). The desk is clean and transparent, but not thin or cold....just sounds great.

It's got a lot less features mix wise than the GS3000 had, but maybe that's why it sounds so pure....less signals to be causing hums and noise. The HPF sweep is a great addition and although I haven't used it to the full....with a full flightcase I paid less than £600.......it's the best bargain I've ever had. It seems there is no market for physical desks at the moment, hence the bargains out there. I can't see me wanting another analogue desk though, because more facilities = bigger footprint, and the footprint on this desk is just about right for me. I can utilise 25-32 for tracking 8 channels to tape (or computer), and monitor back from tape (or computer) on 1-24. I'm going to try rigging the Mackie Ultra-34 up to the inserts, which would give me automated mixing (well auto level and mutes) which could be synced with the tape and computer....a basic version of what the O2Rs do so nicely. I won't be investing in much outboard gear as I can always use Reason's EFX and comps which I find more than adequate. There is a Reason update coming out which will allow VSTs to be used for the very first time, so with that update there really is no need for much else. What I could do with is more space though....or sell some gear!

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Posted (edited)
Interesting - especially compared to some of those other consoles. The only analogue console I've used that comes close to the ML is a Soundcraft GB8 although to be fair, it's been a long time since I used one. I think the last time was when the GL went for service and new faders so it's certainly a number of years ago.. I also remember being a little disappointed when I first used the GL after a break from it whilst I was getting used to my 328XD - it sounded very odd by comparison. I love the GL and but the ML will almost certainly kick it's ass. I'm a little surprised the ML out ranks the GS3000 too - I'd always thought these were meant to be the pinnacle and they were on my list as a maybe before the ML was purchased..

I'd love to try (or maybe I wouldn't!) a Soundcraft MH4 or Series 5 as they have a very similar feature set just to see how well they compare to the ML. And a Yamaha M3000A (these seem to have a very poor reputatiion) plus the well respected PM3500 / 4000..

I agree about the cost of things currently - lots can be had for very little! You and I have had true bargains with these ML range desks especially consideriing it's not actually that long since they were current models. I remember a conversation I had with Dave at Bullet Sound probably ten / twelve years ago when they still had their ML5K (32 frame) and him telling me they were getting rid of it. Knowing it had cost upwards of £20K or thereabouts, I asked what he expected to get for it and him saying he'd be happy with 10 - 12 grand.. Madness! I paid £1125 for my 48 frame including the two RPS14 supplies and the flight case. Absolute madneess!

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0337_zpsopudkngy.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0337_zpsopudkngy.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0336_zpsoty8wbev.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0336_zpsoty8wbev.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0335_zpsaerhi4nx.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0335_zpsaerhi4nx.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

With regards to automation, we're largely doing it on the software although for a few things, it's had a few of us riding the faders as the pre-master track records in real time. The VCA control does help not chasing the channel faders round for 'manual' automation - I've used it quite a bit more than I thought I would. Edited by VTypeV4

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[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/DSC_0339_zpskl4oydyu.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/DSC_0339_zpskl4oydyu.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

02Rs in service this evening - just console B (main live desk) actually doing any work in the picture although I'd done some work a little earlier with console A on a recording from last night. I'll post the finished track when it's completed sometime next week.

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Sorry for the loss of images on the thread - I refuse to pay the $399 Photobucket ransome..

[url=https://postimg.org/image/7v5d1s9z7/][/url]

Just testing a new solution..

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[url=https://flic.kr/p/X8mjbn][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/X8mjbn]Fuzz 02R[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

Trying the Flickr soltion also..

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I probably should have started a new thread but thought it was applicable here too..

Just a quick one - Has anyone used an 03D in any capacity?

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No worries Al.. It does indeed have the 60mm faders of the AW (and of the early 01V too) and are cheap as chips - < £200.

I recently sold my 'spare' 02R as part of a deal for a bike. I'm considering I could do with a replacement and the 03D may be in the frame as it's much less cumbersome than an 02R with many of the same features. The obvious answer is to grab another 02R or possibly a 328XD but the temptation of something different for mobile / location work is attractive.. It's a real shame the 03D doesn't support the Unity card - that would be a killer mini setup.

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Hey Matt,
Have you ever used an AW4414? They're really great machines (the software is a bit clunky for editing recorded material) but for the size they have 40 inputs (16 from the recorder...24bit @ 44.1), 17 x 60 mm faders, but they can take 2 x analogue cards giving 24 line inputs. The mixing bit is ok but hasn't got dedicate HPF so you have to use low band of EQ to achieve this (not a breaker as you probably don't need the low band of eq if you're putting a HPF on a channel). From a tiny footprint you have a lot of the O2R functionallity.
Al

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I haven't looked at the AW in detail but I did have a look at the 01X although on closer inspection, iit looks to be a backwards step compared to the MOTU / Yamaha combo.. I'll keep my eye on ebay and see what crops up. B)

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[url=https://flic.kr/p/XS9PkL][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/XS9PkL]03d a[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/YfJk7T][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/YfJk7T]03d a[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/Yd7Gwm][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/Yd7Gwm]03d a[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

Right money and local so I had it.. Will give it a full shake down next week although initial findings seem good!

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[quote name='planer' timestamp='1504706961' post='3366769']
Built-in toaster is a killer feature :gas:
[/quote]

Not forgetting the coffee pod holder either - both essential items on a gig! :lol:

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[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1504902460' post='3368259']
Doesn't the 03D have a desperate shortage of mic preamps?
[/quote]

Kinda.. It's a bit like the 02R with only half being on XLR but there's also no pad (also less than ideal) on the second half either. On a positive however, they're still a balanced input and seem to work with a mic plugged in to them. Obviously no phantom available and a little more gain required as it's like the pad is in all the time so potential for a little extra noise too although I've not yet found out if that's an issue. The 02R handles every dynamic mic I've ever plug into 9-16 and with 'shouty' bands I usually use the pad anyways..

I'll know more after a shakedown show on Wed (acoustic night) so we'll see. :ph34r: The jury is still out... :lol:

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[url="https://flic.kr/p/Y6qXDE"][/url][url="https://flic.kr/p/Y6qXDE"]03d test[/url] by [url="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/"]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/YpLG13][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/YpLG13]03d test[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

03D in service this evening - the 02Rs can be been looming in the background on the lower pic.

Initial impressions are good as it's essentially a 'mini 02R' with some compromises / cuts but also some better ways of doing things. I'll discuss it in a little more detail tomorrow.. B) Edited by VTypeV4

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Well, I havent got a massive amount to say about it if i'm honest although I'll share a few observations..

1: Gain.. The pre-amps seem to have a different structure and a I guess a clue to that is the different figure (26dB vs 20dB) on the pad compared to those on the 02R. It's not a problem as appropriate settings are easily dialed in but simply required the pot in a different position than that of the larger console. I tested microphones in channels 13 and 14 to see if I could coax enough gain to make them useable (channels 9-16 are line only really but are still a balanced input) and whilst are a little borderline (requiring a 3'o'clock position on the pot) attained an acceptable result without noise. Whether the noise would be acceptable in a recording environment, I couldn't say but live it wasn't noticeable. Lastly, the 60mm faders reduce resolution a little with small movements making more difference than I'm used to. Secondly they only operate to a maximum of +6 as opposed to the usual +10 at the top. Neither are deal breakers but just a little different than the norm..

2: Effects.. They're a different set with different parameters than those on the 02R. Some of the reverb presets have the same patch names as in my REV 500 fx units and a number of the dual effect patches have more comprehensive parameters. There's also lesser spotted amp simulator and freeeze fx too. I haven't thoroughly gone through them but some of the stereo reverb / delay patches are very expansive creating a warm and large soundscape.

3: Navigation and control.. Something I didn't really notice at first but the lack of dedicated controls such as EQ and group assignments can slow things down a little. The jog wheel works in the same way but the navigation buttons and enter button are in a less 'comfortable' place positioned up on the the right rather than the lower right compared the 03Ds bigger brother. Again not really an issue in itself but the layout of the whole thing is a bit cramped. On the menu front, it's a little different again by the use of tabs along the top of the menu which is a nice touch and speeds navigation. To help further, a mouse can be plugged in so the tabs and parameters can be clicked directly rather than nav buttons, jog wheel and enter button.

As for the rest of the console in terms of operation and sound, it's very much the same as the 02R. Gates, compressors and EQ have the same facilities and seem to react in the same manner. I did however read somewhere about 44 bit internal processing as opposed to 32 bit in the 02R but I can't hear any improvement or difference - it might not even be a thing anyways.

Overall it's a very capable unit in a small footprint - theyre rackmountable with a kit - and some of the compromises are understandable. I'd rather take an 02R with the Unity card everytime (live, recording or otherwise) but as a little 'take anywhere, do anything' desk, it's a very useful tool. B)

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Good to hear! Along the lines of how I feel about my little stash of 01Vs. Handy, flexible and full of useful features considering the price point. Glad it's working for you!

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Haha, that was short lived!

There's an 03D in a Cash Generator near me for £180 if you're after another.

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I know!

Despite it's bulk, I'd be happy to take an 02R anywhere to do anything because of it's flexible internal struture and facilities. I know the 03D shares much of this but there's that thing in my head of me arriving somewhere to do something and having to compromise rather than doing the job properly on an 02R..

£180 sounds like a bargain but I'll stick with going back to the larger format machine. B)

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Familiar waters..

[url=https://flic.kr/p/YsqQKy][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/YsqQKy]Yamaha 02R returns[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/]VTypeV4[/url], on Flickr

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Hi Matt,

I used the ML3000 the other day to mix a few tracks that I recorded in Reason, then bounced out to the Fostex G24S tape machine, then mixed via the ML3000. After using the ML3000 and G24S I've decided to hang onto them....I'll get little for them and they're both now in top condition so I'm going to re-jig the studio to give me more room and start recording straight to tape.

One thing that foxed me on the ML3000. Is there no independent PFL volume control for the monitor volume? I suppose with it being a live desk, the PFL level is mainly for use with headphones (where of course you can then set the level of the cans) but I have the 'monitor outs' hooked up to my ROTEL hi-fi amp (jacks to RCA). I found that the level of the 'LR' when sent to the amp was quieter than when a single channel was PFL'd. Any workarounds or am I doing something wrong?
Cheers
Al

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