Phil Starr

26 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

 I've tried the BDI21 as a splitter, but it seems to generate quite a bit of noise (as does a passive DI in the same role)

I've had a couple noise problems off my BD121, it has picked up some electrical noise from some cheap lights somebody was using at a private party and also made some odd high pitched noises just once at a pub gig. Again it might have been some radio pickup from something faulty in the room. I swapped from 8.4v to 9.6v rechargeables and the problem never recurred but the BD121 is clearly more susceptible to radio pickup than the Sansamp. Both can be quite noisy at the extreme setings but shouldn't be when set straight through. If the noise is mainly high frequency you don't need anything above 8kHz from the bass so you might be able to reduce the noise by filtering or just easing off the treble. I tend to use the SAnsamp nowadays as it is more resistant to old batteries and has been totally reliable but dare I say the Behringer sounds just a tiny bit better to my ears.

Most sound engineers much prefer to take a feed before the fx units or modellers as they are often a source of noise particularly when chained.

On 09/03/2024 at 09:03, MikeTheMisfit said:

Hi guys, I record my bass covers in the old fashioned way with my bass into an amp and the song through an external speaker.

 

I've heard of the terms Direct Interface and 'DAW' I think it is. But for the life of me I cannot work out how all that works (I'm so incompetent when it comes to technology).

 

Other people get perfect recording sound by plugging their bass into a DI so you can hear the bass and song perfectly.

 

Could somebody explain to me in the most simple layman terms possible how it works? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

I can do simple

DI is actually Direct Injection. It is just a way of getting the cleanest possible signal to your mixer whether that is on stage or in the recording studio. Your microphone, amp and speaker all colour your tone (hopefully in a good way) and your guitar lead probably adds in a few crackles a bit of background noise and even maybe some radio pickup. Your amp also probably adds in a little bit of hum and some noise of its own. Any sound engineer wants to start with the cleanest sound possible and they can add in any colouring they want later. Microphone leads are noise cancelling so plugging the shortest possible guitar lead into a DI box means a clean sound from then on. Some amps have a DI box built in.

An interface is just a way of converting the sound in your lead into something a computer can understand: analogue to digital. You'll see terms like A/D converter and so on, it's all the same thing. Fortunately almost all interfaces have a DI built in so you can plug your guitar lead straight into them without needing an amp or a DI box. Some mixing desks have an interface built in, I've got a really old Alesis four channel mixer and it has a USB port so if you have a USB port on your mixer try plugging it in and see what it does. If not you have to buy an interface like the ones suggested

DAW is Digital Audio Workstation. It's basically an App or computer program that turns your computer into a recorder and a mixing desk. There are loads of them out there ranging from simple to really complex. Plenty of them are free and really good but for a few hundred pounds you cn have more power at home than the best recording studios could dream of even just a few years back. There are even apps that will process everything for you online so if your computer is old and slow you can still mix tracks down Soundtrap is one I used during the lockdown to work with friends when we couldn't meet. They've never shut down my months free trial 

If you do go down this route then it's worth knowing that one trick is to record from your amp and through a DI at the same time and then you can mix the two signals and have a mix of clean and dirty sounds.

Hope that helps

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

He might start playing chess though.

I knew someone would sell them

Remove his stool and make him sit on the monitor

Failing that buy a vibrating butt plug that will accept audio.

1 hour ago, Mykesbass said:

Pffft, go for the 6'41 12" version 😎

Please don't even whisper that near any of my band 😨

Hot Stuff; Donna Summer

What was I thinking? five minutes of almost unbroken octaves, my pinky hurts!

The B&C ME10 mk2 is good. and the Celestion H1-7050 or the H1SC-8050 would work well though the latter would need an adaptor for the specified compression driver as it is a screw fit horn

First of all I'm going to say there are a lot of details to do with phase issues and a whole lot of other thngs involved in designing a really good crossover. Something that 'works' is simple enough and you can design a crossover using theory and software but speakers are far from straight resistive loads and neither are they flat response so combining two without a lot of distortion at the crossover is tough without a lot of experience and good measuring gear. That's not to discourage you or anyone from using a generic crossover but just be realistic about the possibilities. Having said that you can have a great sounding instrument speaker that falls short of perfection. However the BC 112T Mk3 has a really well developed crossover so don't dismiss it as a fully worked out design. You can change teh shape of the box to fit your alcove so long as you keep the volume of the box the same

On the other hand it's quite right that the top frequencies above 8kHz aren't really important for bass and won't actually be there art audible levels in the output of a bass pickup. Though even a 4" driver will be beaming at 2kHz so a well designed horn will give you better off axis response. I've been experimenting at home with a 6" driver and a 12" bass driver using DSP for the crossover and found that a 200Hz crossover worked well and gave a remarkably smooth sound. Using a small cone driver to cover all of the mid-range means that these frequencies won't be beaming and a smaller lighter cone is more able to track the mids accurately. Our ears are most sensitive in the 1-3kHz range so moving the crossover out of that region is really helpful. Having nothing above the pass band of a bass pickup is just not having something you will ever use.

The tests I've been doing have just been proof of concept, there aren't many reasonably priced midrange drivers available off the shelf. 6" is too big really and I've bought 4x3" drivers for the next stage of development. These little drivers don't have the power handling or sensitivity to achieve the right volumes on their own.

There's nothin new in all of this, it's been understood since the 1930's and probably earlier. Ideally you'd split up the entire audio range into 4 or 5 bands but passive crossovers are difficult to design and always bring in some distortion. Fortunately for bass the pickup itself acts as an inductor and cuts all the high frequencies depending mainly upon how many windings there are in the coils. The strings of course don't vibrate well at high frequencies so there is much top to start with.

So it's relatively easy to reduce the crossover point for a compression driver and horn to around the 2kHz point without crazy expense and minimise crossover distortion to  get great radiation control of the upper frequencies, which is what @stevie has done with the BC112T and his LFSys designs. It's also possible to crossover at much lower frequencies and get better dispersal at sub 2kHz frequencies and let a single driver or array of drivers cover the whole mid range but with significant beaming above 4kHz which is what Genzler have done in their bass arrays. You'll have to design your own crossover for that and probably need to wind your own coils as high inductance/high power coils aren't widely available off the shelf.

Well done, that's a perfectly valid way of getting some control though long term if you are handy with a soldering iron using a stereo /TRS jack in the insert will give you a more reliable connection. You'd need a short lead with two 'stereo' jacks with the ring of one connected to the tip of the other. A half inserted plug is going to be susceptible to knocking too far in or coming out and breaking the contact. Another way of splitting the signal would be to use something like the Behringer di120 before the mixer. The other problem is that you only have the mixer's tone controls so eq options are limited. I've got a SansAmp where the feed is post eq so I could take the XLR to FOH and the jack out to the in-ears channel so that would be another option which gives you more tonal control of the in-ears sound. I've got a BD121 here too I can check if that works the same way if you want.

41 minutes ago, d-basser said:

If for any reason Bassybert can't oblige I can easily sort technical drawings. Just incase you need a backup

Thanks for the offer, at some stage I want to update all the old designs with a standard format to make it easier for people to build without having to trawl all through the old threads. I may get back to you

19 hours ago, jezzaboy said:

I was looking at these the other night @Phil Starr. I`m going into the studio tomorrow night to try out our new Yamaha DBR 12`s. My plan is to put everything through the pa. If it works I would love to downsize and get a smaller speaker to use as an on stage monitor for myself as I currently use an RCF 715 which is great but is rather large.

 

 A 10 inch would be ideal due to the size (I have a Ford Fiesta and anything that can be downsized is a bonus) but as I play in an ACDC tribute band with a couple of Marshall valve amps and a drummer, I don`t know if the RCF 10 inch would cut it as a monitor with the Yams doing the heavy lifting? I could maybe put it on a stand and lift it up a bit? Using a sub isn`t really an option due to transport issues. I might just bite the bullet and give it a try.

I bought my ART310's as floor monitors, I'd previously been using some old passive Yamahas and Wharfedale Titans and even tried some Behringer monitors. Switching to the 310s gave me a whole ot more headroom before feedback, really dramatically so. All of the things I tried gave way more output than you need from a floor monitor only 2m away from you so gain before feedback was the limiting factor always. The improvement was just because of the smoother frequency response.

You'll need to cut the bass a little if you put bass through as they are designed to be flat response on poles radiating 360 deg. On the floor with 180 deg radiation the bass is raised to uncomfortable levels. I shelve out the bass below 120-150 Hz and use a 50Hz filter on mine as i have fully parametric controls on my mixer but just rolling off the bass with a conventional tone control worked with my old analogue mixer

Good luck in the studio

14 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

The Evox I got before for under £500, now there isn't anything south of £700.

I saw about the 310s - sounds like quite a good deal and would probably be good as vocals, but would it be ok with me putting my bass through it and the rest of the band, or would I just end up with more things to carry around?

With the 310's you'd have two 10's and the Evox uses a 12" sub so you'd expect two Evox to work better at really high volumes, probably more important for the drums than bass. On the other hand the nicest bass sound I've ever had is through my 310's on poles. I can't really say how the other differences would pan out without actually listening to them.

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

(in fact my other one is probably worth more than I paid for it now).

Yeah I've noticed that I had a quick look on Marketplace for the Evox 8, theres a few around but the prices! I'm about to sell on a load of stuff and looking to see what the going rate is, everything has gone up in price in line with the new prices in the shops and maybe a bit more. I almost feel guilty in making a profit on everything but it's all going back out on better gear and that has gone up too so it's really just inflation I suppose. I sold my Wharfedale Titans just over a year ago for £300 and the price now is £450 and upwards for good used ones.

Did you see my post about the RCF ART310 offer at Thomann. Under £300 and rated by RCF at 127db max the same as your Evox 8. I've used mine as backline with no problems and as PA in a lot of Somerset's pubs.

My advice would be to take your time and buy once though, hang out for the speaker of your choice, I made do for years with whatever I could buy cheap, out of necessity at first but habit later on, then I decided to buy what I saw as the 'perfect' system for any band I was likely to play with and waited until things came up at a price I could just stretch to. I bought things one or two pieces at a time and sold most of my old stuff as I went. It took a couple of years to complete the upgrade but I have just what I need, the band sounds better and I didn't waste money on stuff that was OK but needed upgrading later.

On 04/03/2024 at 18:36, Bassmonkey2510 said:

found the KZs to be too trebley, so I tried rolling some top off on the aux channel.

It's worth knowing that the KZ10's have a 10db midrange cut built into their sound so you probably need to be fairly enthusiastic with the eq to get the same sound as the audience are hearing

From their website

5 hours ago, Bassybert said:

I can help if needed Phil, have done a fair bit of technical drawing over the years. 

Thanks, I'll PM you.

Oh you are Somerset based, whereabouts? That could be quite convenient.

I did wonder if a second Evox 8 might be the answer since you know you like them anyway. You'll know exactly what you are getting which is always an issue. Depending upon people like us to describe sound is never as good as actually hearing what you are about to buy. I wasn't sure tht this would fit into your £500 budget though. Your TS212's should have some value though and there are used Evox 8's beginning to appear on the used market.

1 hour ago, stevie said:

.I wonder how reliable the published curves are.

Indeed

Mms is quoted as the same so there can't be much difference if any in the cone.

Across the range of Fane Sovereign speakers the Pro version is just the version with a cast chassis. The cast chassis is thicker and probably slightly more rigid than the pressed steel chassis and may help dissipate a little more heat but I've never had a failure due to the chassis so for me the difference is academic. Ther is a peak in response between the pro and the non-pro version  (well spotted @stevie) however the standard pressed steel frame is the one we've tested and auditioned and that rising response will add a little brightness to the sound with a bass. It was one of the things that attracted me to the speaker and the peak in response is fairly broad and flat compared with a more harsh cone breakup that other speakers show. I'm not sure if the peak is a function of the basket/frame or of some sort of treatment of the cone itself. I'd choose the pro if i was adding a tweeter but this design uses the cheaper model. They'll both work in the same cab though so you can make your own choice

OK BA21 is Yeovil? that's just down the road from Chard so we are easy driving distance. Do you want to come over sometime and have a session comparing gear at mine?

Oh god he isn't using a shure PG58 is he? They really are dull and he'd be better of with a Behringer. 

Lot's of vocal mics have frequency peaks in the kHz regions which brighten and lift the vocals, the result is that some mics suit some people and not others. A vocalist needs to find 'their' mic much more than we need to find 'our' bass or our strings and then cherish it and learn all the mics foibles. You'd never believe that from how casually some of them treat their mic., don't singers suffer from GAS? We were getting some bass feedback last weekend every time the singer moved her mic into a particular spot where there was a resonance/standing wave. It's reall difficult to watch what they all do  at once sometimes. Anyway a change of mic could emphasise different aspects of his voice, whether he is susceptible to talking about it of course is another matter. Maybe it's time to start sharing You Tube videos with the band

It does sound like you know what you are doing though, working systematically through the individual problems.

Ok it was the day after tomorrow

The hold up has been because the Basschatter who does the drawings for me has a load of work pressures and not been able to get them back to me. I in turn have been busywith family stuff plus a new band and not really pulled my finger out as a result, maybe that's just an excuse for my inactivity though.  On the plus side a few people have said via pm they want to build this and post their build diaries so the pressure to get on with it is building.

So, first of all can anyone turn my pencil and paper designs into something that looks like the drawings we have for the other speakers?

Something that looks like this would be perfect

5 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I had 3 of the 310s and sold 2 after buying a pair of QSC K10s.  I had the chance to try the cabs side by side and there was not a lot of real world difference in volume between them; 400w RCF / 1000w QSC.  However, you could buy x3 new RCFs for x1 QSC!  

It's so tough to choose based upon specs as fundamentally they all lie about them, even the 'good' firms making great kit. Basically the Yamaha/QSC/RCF/JBL/EV 10's are pretty much all roughly equally capable when it comes to sound output simply because of the physical limitations of what you can do with a 10" speaker which is going to be crossed over at around 2-3KHz. Watts aren't unimportant but advertised watts just can't be trusted.

Totally agree though about the comparison, I've tried the 12's against each other and there really is very little difference between QSC, Yamaha and RCF in the models I tried.

Just noticed the 310 is back, and on special offer at Thomann.

We've been chatting about small PA speakers on a few threads and I have a pair I use a lot. Unfortunately RCF discontinued them as they were at a price for value point which made them a great buy. However Thomann appear to have either bought up all the old stock or commissioned a new production run for their 70th anniversary promotions and are promising to sell them for £289 for a year. They were a bargain at £330 so this looks good to me, I'm tempted to buy a backup pair but I'm supposed to be selling not buying

For any who don't know these are really neutral sounding cabs, beautifully flat across the crossover point so vocals are lovely and they make great floor monitors; the absence of frequency peaks means you can push them to really high levels without feedback issues. I use mine as PA with a duo (no back line and bass and programmed drums going direct to PA) and recently at a full gig with bass and drums handled by adding a sub. I have a second pair I use as floor monitors. If you want a general workhorse cab that sounds great, doesn't break the bank and is compact to transport and at 12kg not the heaviest load these are probably as good as you are going to get for under £300 at the moment IMO.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_art_310_a_mk_iv.htm

54 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

My band has bass guitar, two guitars, vocals and  an acoustic drum kit. The drummer is not a loud player, do you think a single sub would work in that scenario?

Hi John. Absolutely.

I've got a sub here you can borrow to test it out. I know you still have the Wharfedale Titans I sold you so you can try it out at your next rehearsal/gig.

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@Phil Starr

Would it flood the stage area less if you had the sub at the front? Appreciate they are probably the least directional part of PA kit, but maybe sufficient to deal with the sense from the band/guitarist that it was sounding bass heavy? I've seen subs placed at the front and sides of stages which seemed to work well - also appreciate you're not going to have a stage for most pub gigs! 

Hiya, the subs were in front of us, the 'stage' was a raised part of the bar in an old coaching inn, about 120-150cm above the rest of the bar up a few steps on what an estate agent would call a mezzanine but which was the main route to the toilets So the sub was on the floor belowand in front of  stage right and directly below said guitarist. Like I said if he had put his in-ears in properly it wouldn't have been a problem. If I stick with this system I'll use the sub in place of one of the stands under on of the tops with the other top on a speaker stand. Positioning will probably be dictated by placing the most vulnerable speaker on the sub. I've not had a stand come crashing down on a drunk yet but it always seems an accident waiting to happen.