maxrossell

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478427' date='May 3 2009, 06:59 PM']OK... I'll quantify that. I'm told by sight readers and learned theorists - time and time again - that I'm some sort of 'plink-plonk' idiot because I don't read, have limited theory, etc. etc. The fact is, I'm out there doing it. Yes, that's right - a fact. So, when that response gets no acknowledgement, but instead is met with the same tired accusations, how else am I supposed to respond other than to deduce that it's some sort of prejudice? I have respect for these people. It's a shame there's very little coming back the other way.[/quote] Fortunately I know some people who read music very well and have been doing professionally and non-professionally (and sometimes unprofessionally ) for a long time, and they're very modest about it and consistently as appreciative of music made by people who have no theory as they are of music made by people with loads of classical training. That tends to make up for dudes who seem to think that if you don't know what they know then you don't know [i]anything[/i].

[quote name='rslaing' post='478418' date='May 3 2009, 06:49 PM']That is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable explanation of your position. As is mine, and the other responses from people who can read music. The problem with this forum (IMO) is that the subject of the threads always end up being taken personally by some people, and their responses tend to be quite hostile, and even in some cases degenerating into personal attacks on the people who have an opposing point of view. But I would not call someone a "snob" for having a contradictory point of view to mine. Anyway, f*** it.....I am out of here, I really don't know why I bother. If someone had told me that my own opinion and posts had to be acceptable to the majority, I would not have wasted my time.[/quote] Yeah, who would have thought that some people might object to you openly slagging them off. Crazy old world, ain't it. I also agree that personal attacks are not cool. Here's some examples: "it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting." "people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering" "I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities" I think it's beyond belief that anyone would take offence from those comments. They are after all only based on your sincere belief that people who don't read music are a bunch of lazy untalented idiots who will never attain the stratospheric musical heights you believe standard notation has taken you to. I know, I'm being sarcastic. It's my standard response to jaw-dropping arrogance.

[quote name='rslaing' post='478393' date='May 3 2009, 06:29 PM']I don't think I am special. I just find it an advantage being able to read music. As I said, I know a lot of musicians who regret not learning to do it, and none who have. And most professional musicians know how to read music, and in spite of your belittling the benefits, it takes more than a fortnight to learn how to do it, otherwise I suspect you might have bothered.[/quote] Show me some figures to back that up then. Because if you're saying that of everyone on the planet who makes any kind of living from playing any kind of musical instrument, the large majority know how to read standard notation, I think you might be slightly deluded. And if you don't think you're special, what is it that you think gives you the authority to insult everyone who doesn't do things your way?

[quote name='rslaing' post='478390' date='May 3 2009, 06:26 PM']But if being able to interpret music and play it by having the ability to read music is snobbery, than your statement means that everyone that can read music is potentially a snob?[/quote] It's not the fact that you can read that makes you a snob. It's the fact that you claim that people who can't read are lazy and sh*t at music that makes you a snob. [quote]But I am still waiting for someone to give me a reason why it is an advantage by NOT being able to read music.[/quote] Like I said above. There is no advantage to not reading music. However that doesn't mean that people who don't read music are all automatically disadvantaged.

[quote name='rslaing' post='478367' date='May 3 2009, 06:01 PM']So, to cut through all of this crap, can someone tell me the ADVANTAGES of not being able to read music? Because I can't think of any.................and it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting. Sorry, but that is how it comes over. If anyone can give me an advantage to not being able to read music, then you might change my mind. Think about it, if you adopted the same attitude towards the english language (namely not being able to read it, but able to speak it) you couldn't read this or express yourself via the written word? WTF is the advantage of that? I stick to my original belief - people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering. It might work for manufactured sh*te in the music industry, but not for REAL musicians.[/quote] Yeah? Well, I'm sorry, but I think it's genuinely pathetic that you have to insult and belittle something you have very little knowledge and no experience of just to get your point across. There is no advantage to not knowing how to read music. I'm not claiming that there is. My point is that it doesn't [i]disadvantage[/i] people as devastatingly as you think it does. And "REAL musicians"? Seriously, get over yourself. You know how to interpret a code it would take anyone about a fortnight to learn. It doesn't make you special.

[quote name='dlloyd' post='478344' date='May 3 2009, 05:12 PM']Without being judgemental about the course you took, I still find it utterly mind blowing that you can walk away from any university with a first in Music without the ability to read, given that it's not that long ago that the ability to read was a requirement to take O-Level Music.[/quote] Yeah, I can see how it would appear surprising. But if you took the course you'd understand completely. It's about as far removed from an O-Level or an A-Level in music as you can get. It's really geared towards composition, sound design and production techniques, many of which throw traditional notions of "write song/play song" out of the window entirely. In fact, some of the people on the course weren't even instrumentists. The idea of requiring us to take a module in traditional notation would have been frankly bizarre.

[quote name='OldGit' post='457102' date='Apr 8 2009, 09:30 AM']This belongs here too I think Nice to see Peter Gabriel needs the words on a prompt screen too [/quote] Holy crap, Levin is so good.

[quote name='MythSte' post='478288' date='May 3 2009, 03:35 PM']yeah i remember playing it, I think it was wired wrong though, only one of the volume pots worked! I was going to make a trip to liverpool on tuesday to trawl round some shops but i might just save myself the effort and grab that...[/quote] Hmm. Last time I tried it it worked okay. Either way if it's got a problem get 'em to knock 100 quid off the price and then get Scott to rewire it, double bonus. Definitely worth it though, plus I reckon it'll hold its value pretty well if you need to shift it down the line.

[quote name='MythSte' post='478281' date='May 3 2009, 03:25 PM']yeah is that the one in HW music where sound control used to be, is it still there?! I was really wowed by that one.[/quote] Yeah, still there, I think it's half a grand straight up. I've played it a few times, IMHO better than the black US Jazz they have in, sounds more "natural", if you know what I mean. And the block inlays look really cool, with the sunburst/black pickguard. It would be at my house right now if I had the cash. I reckon it would fit in really well, soundwise and visually.

I had no idea these were CIJ models.

[quote name='MythSte' post='478273' date='May 3 2009, 03:13 PM']im afraid not, It was a very nice bass! I got a bit clumsy on 5 strings though and would much rather have a four now. And the bacchus didnt do "tame" very well![/quote] Cool man. Personally if I were you I'd be looking at either a J or a P. Both do that classic Fender thing that I suspect you're looking for, but in different ways. I also find Jazzes a tad more versatile, plus there's dozens of different models, not counting all the clones that other companies make. I really liked the Fender MIM 70s RI Jazz, a really killer model and looks the business as well.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='478268' date='May 3 2009, 03:07 PM']IMHO Talent is Talent whether you can read on not Just some thoughts, I thought a degree gave you the tools to make a living at music, give you a better chance than others without the education or why get yourself into a lot of debt. I am talking about the bread and butter work that most people do not your drams jobs for a few. The better paid work involves musical skills EG, teaching in schools, collage, unis, shows, run of the mill recording sessions like adverts. “However outside of that field there is an entire industry within which you can operate in many roles with a great deal of success without knowing how to read music.” I totally agree but they have little or no respect for formal qualifications also so again why get yourself into debt.[/quote] Personally I didn't go to university to improve my CV, I went because I wanted to learn more about making music. A little unrealistic, you might say, but it was worth it to me. Had I looked at it as a career thing, then as I said above there was lots of formal skills teaching available to me, I just chose to not go down that road.

[quote name='MythSte' post='478084' date='May 3 2009, 09:45 AM']I think you may well be right. I think im fighting a losing battle against going corporate! I played a 75RI the other day that i reallly liked. /i even think those are mexican these days arnt they? Hmm! On a lighter note, my first gig with these guys tonight, im excited![/quote] I really liked that Bacchus Jazz you used to have, tried it in the studio when we recorded the Motorstorm track there. Do you not have that one anymore?

[quote name='boabskiboab' post='478197' date='May 3 2009, 01:17 PM']ok, bad example. Lets say another set of passives.[/quote] Well, the quick connectors are just that, ways of connecting the wires. If you have two sets of passive pickups that both have the connectors on them, and your bass has connectors, then you could in theory switch out the sets in minutes.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='478211' date='May 3 2009, 01:56 PM']I have to admit that I don’t understand why universities graduates can’t read music as this limits your potential for employment I know some people get around it but it must be limiting in many respects of employment. In a lot of cases in popular music qualifications aren’t worth the paper there written on. In the more traditional world of music where qualifications count it is taken for granted you can read.[/quote] In response to this, the people who ran the degree course I did come from a school of thought where standard notation, although not dismissed and still thought of as a very valuable tool (and also taught and supported where desired), is not considered to be an absolute prerequisite in order to be a successful musician. And you're absolutely right that in the more traditional world of music it is taken for granted that you should be able to read standard notation. However outside of that field there is an entire industry within which you can operate in many roles with a great deal of success without knowing how to read music.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='477832' date='May 2 2009, 05:38 PM']Why do people who know stuff always get called elitist by people who don't? People who can read generally value it (me included). But why, if I value something, am I accused of being elitist if I advocate for it? Its no different than advocating for Wal basses or Eden amps. It works for me.[/quote] If you check back, the reason I referred to someone as elitist was not because he knows something I don't or was advocating for it, but because he made a load of misrepresentative and obliquely insulting generalisations about, to loosely paraphrase, how people who don't read are all substandard musicians.

[quote name='rslaing' post='477834' date='May 2 2009, 05:42 PM']I can see that. Another example of what appears to be someone justifying their decision not to learn to read music. And not accept someone elses point of view because it is contradictory. Maybe you should try to re-read the whole thing again - impartially. It is only my opinion and you should not take it personally, but it appears to have struck a raw nerve. It does not denigrate people who can't read music. My point of view was that I think a musican benefits from both, and reading music can help develop a good ear. Don't take my word for it, ask any pro musician. And then let us know the outcome. Don't let my point of view aggravate you, it's just a point of view. I can accept yours, but not when you don't appear to have read my points and not answered them in a relevant way. For example, my comment:- [b]"it seems to be the non-readers that are trying to justify their inability to interpret the written element of music" [/b]- Your response - "I'm sorry, but standard notation is not THE written element of music. It is ONE OF the written elements of music." Where did I mention standard notation? If you are talking about tab notation as an alternative (I will assume) it is a waste of time and a lazy alternative for people who don't want to learn to read music. It is actually quicker to learn to read STANDARD NOTATION than use a "join the dots" type of primitive notation. Tab notation was developed to help sell sheet music to people who couldn't read STANDARD NOTATION. Check it out. It seems to be a waste of time trying to make any point of view on here if it contradicts the majority, because as in the other responses to the people who can read music, the hostility is absurd. I note that readers with difering opinions who have contributed their 2p to this have basically given up on it. I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities and tend to stick to one type of music. And very opinionated they are about that too, just as I am being now - but this is my personal experience. Just because they like a certain type of music or musician, they think it is "good". There is a huge difference between something being played well by a talented musician than an average joe playing some banal 3 chord tripe (and even then, on most of the produced albums, not only do they use auto vocal tuners for the untalented/untrained vocalists, but on many occasions, studios have to hire external musicians who can actually read music for the backing tracks). The mods really should start to crack down on personal attacks on people who make opinions in a general non specific manner. I appreciate your point of view, and certainly do not take it personally. I am also certainly not elitist, just a very experienced musician of 40 years standing who really has seen it all and am expressing my viewpoint. I also listen to all types of music, but I also know the difference between a great musician, regardless of the genre of music, and someone who has lesser talent. But that doesn't mean to say I can't listen to both and appreciate differing elements of ability or the musical content. I have learned my lesson today though, I certainly won't make any more comments unless it agrees with the majority, then we can all be smug in the knowledge that we must be correct because everyone agrees with each other (at least superficially), and we don't have anyone with any individualistic responses. But then again, we can all rise up, tell them they are talking a load of sh*te and then they won't contribute any more anyway? Job well done!! EDIT: After thought:- I don't know who said it but it's true - no one can make you feel inferior without your own consent. Think about it.[/quote] It genuinely blows my mind that you can claim that I don't accept other people's points of view, when every third post I've made in this thread states that I completely understand the value of reading even though I don't do it myself, and yet all you've done is belittle people who have chosen not to read. Advocate the actual merits of reading until the cows come home and I'll echo your sentiments and back you up 100%. But if you're gonna make comments about how commercial stuff and blues or metal don't necessitate any musical skill, or how tab is a waste of time for lazy people, or how non-readers are all creatively limited, then I have to call bulls**t, because that's what it plainly is. If you don't want to be called elitist, try not being elitist. And let's be clear here, I certainly don't feel inferior to you, even though your statements make it quite clear that you think I am. So I'll say it again. There is clearly a good value to learning how to read classical or standard notation. However, not doing so doesn't mean you're doomed to be a second-class muso who can only produce banal dirge, and those who claim that this is the case really aren't helping anyone.

[quote name='rslaing' post='477737' date='May 2 2009, 02:58 PM']One thing is for sure - the quickest way to learn a song is by being able to read music. And, by being able to read music, you will develop your ear to a better degree MORE QUICKLY, not necessarily to a higher level. A good musician will work to become proficient in both areas. In my opinion, the reason that your ear develops better by being able to read music is because you translate the dots into sounds that you can reproduce more quickly and accurately. And music as you know is mostly about sound - plus harmony, rhythm, expression, the spaces in between the sounds, and many other factors that determine the end result. The other main advantage of being able to read music is that you can develop your ear greatly by being able to sit down with a CD tune and transcribe it - many of the great creative musicians in history state that transcription skill developed their ear better than any other method. Who are we to argue? Historically most of the great musicians from different genres acquired both skills. In (for example) the modern jazz field, (which exemplifies some truly amazing skill levels aurally - even if you don't like that type of music) there were and are many musicians who were initially trained in classical music and then branched in to other areas. Once they used their reading skills to learn the "changes" and structure of a song, they then used that blueprint as a springboard to enable them to go to another level by using their aural skills. They don't actually read the music when they are in concert, it is just a means to an end. So I think it is very important that musicians have a broad spectrum of abilities - otherwise you are going to limit your potential. There are not many top musicians who can't read music. And I am not talking about the type of musician who plays something that any 6 year old could manage after 2 months tuition. The thing that surprises me in some of the comments I have read in this thread is that it seems to be the non-readers that are trying to justify their inability to interpret the written element of music. It appears that the majority of the "readers" have both skills to one degree or another and are not trying to favour one method over another. I do know however, as a bass tutor originally before my day job ate up my time and I became too old to be bothered any more, that most of my students that did not want to learn to read music did not do so for two main reasons. They either thought it had no relevance to what they wanted to play (mostly commercial or blues/metal stuff that did not necessitate any real musical skill anyway) or they were just too lazy to learn. Most of these ended up playing uncreative cliched bass lines or mechanically reproducing original bass parts in covers bands and did not develop beyond the skill level they had after 1 or two years of playing. So it really is a matter of choice, but my advice would always be that if you want a greater understanding of music and how certain sounds are created, learn to read music and study the other elements that make music the thing we all like - it is the quickest way to get you where you want to be. I have never encountered anyone who wished they had never learned to read music, but I have met lots of players who wished they had.[/quote] See, it's this kind of stuff I have a problem with. [b]"A good musician will work to become proficient in both areas."[/b] Really? So does that mean that people who don't aren't good musicians? [b]"many of the great creative musicians in history state that transcription skill developed their ear better than any other method. Who are we to argue?"[/b] Many others state that they learned everything they know by figuring stuff out by ear from their favourite records. So who are we to argue with [i]that[/i]? [b]"There are not many top musicians who can't read music. And I am not talking about the type of musician who plays something that any 6 year old could manage after 2 months tuition." [/b]That depends on what you mean by "top musician", doesn't it. The [i]large majority[/i] of people I and many others consider to be top musicians and listen to every day have very little knowledge of music theory. So I assume that you're dismissing them as nothing more than rank amateurs with the skill level of untrained children? [b]"it seems to be the non-readers that are trying to justify their inability to interpret the written element of music"[/b] - I'm sorry, but standard notation is not THE written element of music. It is ONE OF the written elements of music. [b]"mostly commercial or blues/metal stuff that did not necessitate any real musical skill anyway"[/b] Doesn't it? [i]Really?[/i] Or is it just that you don't personally rate any of those kinds of genres so you're not interested in what they have to offer? I'm sorry, but all you're doing is coming across as elitist. You're dismissing the aspirations and goals of other people - and even worse, your own students - because they don't align with your own. Everything you've said above demonstrates how much you look down on people who can't read music as automatically inferior to those who can. Learning to read music clearly has a value, but I can see what some people mean when they say that they don't want to get into that if it's gonna turn them into snobs.

Lemmywinks is a cool dude indeed. He travelled down from Poulton to drop off the bass I bought from him, a very nice indeed walnut finish Squier Jazz Bass Std (at a very nice price, too). I wish I had more time to buy the man a pint, but I have a lunch engagement in like five minutes so I had to dash. Top bloke, absolutely recommended. Right gotta shoot. Cheers!

[quote name='Prosebass' post='477601' date='May 2 2009, 11:02 AM']I've just read most of this and don't get why there is an argument ![/quote] There's an argument because on the one hand some readers are advancing the preposterous notion that non-readers are all missing out on an untold wealth of creative and professional opportunities that only readers have access to, and on the other hand some non-readers are advancing the equally preposterous notion that knowing how to read somehow makes you a worse musician. So basically you have a group of people who claim that their approach is the [i]only[/i] valid approach and as a reaction to that you have another group of people who are completely rejecting that approach as insular. The first group is coming off as elitist and the second is coming across as deliberately obtuse.

[quote name='XB26354' post='476555' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:53 PM']I'm sure resorting to insults is very noble [/quote] [quote name='XB26354' post='477567' date='May 2 2009, 10:07 AM']Probably because you come across as an arrogant self-satisfied knob[/quote] I'm sorry, you were saying?

[quote name='lowdown' post='477552' date='May 2 2009, 09:47 AM']Re read back over nine pages of this post. The penny might drop. Garry[/quote] No no, I get it, you think you're entitled to rubbish my achievements because you've learned something that I have no need for. I just don't see why you think it's okay to do that.

[quote name='lowdown' post='477545' date='May 2 2009, 09:35 AM']There you are...You should know your own. Conducting other peoples scores is another ballgame. Garry[/quote] Yeah, and I wouldn't presume to if I couldn't read it, and never claimed I would, so I don't know what the point that you're failing to make is.

[quote name='lowdown' post='477533' date='May 2 2009, 09:05 AM']If you mean this, i am not sure he taking the piss. Maybe you see it as so. But i think he might have a point in a 'degree in busking' No director/producer in the world would invite you to conduct there Orchestra.... with 'a degree in busking', Reading yes....[/quote] Really? Then why have I been hired three times by two separate directors to conduct orchestras? Or does it not count if I also wrote the music they were playing? And yeah, in one case it was because of my degree in "busking", which, not that you'd know, is a legitimate degree in creative composition and production technology that I moved to England and worked my arse off for three years to achieve. In this thread I've also tried to point out on several occasions that I do see the value of being able to read classical notation. But it would really help if some of the people who can read it weren't so sodding arrogant and condescending about it.

[quote name='mcc' post='477496' date='May 2 2009, 03:42 AM']Hi, I have built my own speaker cabs in the past but mainly copying one from a reputable make. I just got myself a Ashdown Little Giant and wondered if I could make a relatively small and light cab for it. Not to use its full power, but to use in those practice situations were a mini combo is not enough. My question is , what effect does a decrease in wood thickness bring to the cab, lets say down from 3/4" to 1/2" or less? I obviously expect it to be less durable (not a good candidate for sitting on), but besides that would the lower rigidity compromise sound?? In what way?? thanks[/quote] It's gonna depend on what material you use, whether you use chip or ply. But in both situations it's also going to depend on what size the cab is. Because of the reduced thickness of the wood, it'll be more prone to vibration, and that will have an effect on the sound in the sense that you may find the bass end less focussed, for instance, and the sound will also be slightly less directional. But if you use high-quality ply (Orange cabs are marine-grade, for example) this may not matter as much.