maxrossell

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='479202' date='May 4 2009, 06:35 PM']Good move, mate. Is this a Japanese '75 with the lovely gloss finish everywhere, or the new Mexican 70's Jazz bass with the blocks?[/quote] The one we're talking about is the MIM 70's with the blocks.

[quote name='Eight' post='479194' date='May 4 2009, 06:23 PM']Is there anyone over the age of five still participating in this thread?[/quote] I'm five-and-a-half.

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='479180' date='May 4 2009, 06:07 PM']Well said that man - there should be more of us who sit firmly on the fence with this one. I sit there so often that in the spelks department my bum looks like Desperate Dan's chin.[/quote] It ain't fence-sitting, man. There's nothing wishy-washy about the belief that people should be welcome to choose their own musical path without being judged or looked down upon by people who make different choices.

It's cool, sorted it now. I just tweaked the truss rod and saddles to get a different string angle.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='479171' date='May 4 2009, 05:58 PM']Stevie Wonder & Ray Charles are not REAL musicians. They're just manufactured crap. That's how they get/got away with it. The bloke that scored & sequenced the pan-pipe stylee Bee Gees muzak that I heard in the garden centre today is a REAL musician.[/quote] And the fat balding guy who played cheesy lounge piano way too loud for two hours in this crappy restaurant I went to a month ago. He had all the sheet music and everything. Okay, he made a few mistakes here and there, and he'd just stop playing at random places right in the middle of a tune to turn the pages, but boy did I feel humbled to be in the preseence of a REAL musician.

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='479160' date='May 4 2009, 05:49 PM']I'm a tad surprised that no-one on the side opposite the 'should read' part of the discussion hasn't mentioned the talents of Stevie Wonder 'cos apparently he doesn't (read that is - unless there is a form of braille 'notation'? - Serious query that BTW)[/quote] [quote name='stevie' post='479166' date='May 4 2009, 05:54 PM']BINGO! I was wondering how long it would take. [/quote] Yeah, him and Ray Charles. Creatively limited no-marks they are. Didn't have access to the universal language of music. It's suprising they got [i]anything[/i] done, really.

[quote name='AM1' post='479092' date='May 4 2009, 04:28 PM']Sometimes the appropriate tools for the job are not limited to just the tools you have to hand. It is sufficiency versus efficiency.[/quote] I haven't needed to learn to read music because I have yet to be involved in a siutation that requires it. What part of that is unclear to you? [quote]The validity of the course is a different debate. However, any music degree course with composition as a key element, which does not teach the basic building blocks of musical communication, is an extremely poorly structured course. There is no valid reason not to have included the teaching of notation and transcription. A composer for multiple instruments, whom cannot read or write down music is constrained in the ways I explained above. It is patently unacceptable in my view for a professional educational institution to omit fundamental basics from courses.[/quote] The basic building blocks of musical communication are sounds. Sounds made by instruments. Not dots on a piece of paper. And as I've pointed out, and you clearly didn't bother to remember, is that they offered teaching of standard notation and all that stuff to people who wanted it. They didn't [i]require[/i] it, however, because they don't think it's as crucial as you seem to. [quote]Again, we are back at "adequate" - that, in itself, is a subjective entity. Is it more adequate to lack the building blocks to communicate your music to others, than to simply learn to read and write notation, which may just make your life easier and enhance your all around musical capability?[/quote] Erm, I don't know how to break this to you, because I don't lack the basic building blocks to communicate my music to others. I've been doing it for years. Not in the way you do it, which you seem to think is the only acceptable way, but it works fine for me and I enjoy it. [quote]I did not "tell" you to do anything. I have explained in detail, what I perceive as some benefits of reading notation and suggested that learning to read would be a positive for someone in your position.[/quote] You know sod-all about my position. You're just assuming that the way you do things is the best way because it's the way you do it, so everyone else should do it, and those who don't are missing out. [quote]The discussion is specifically about how one communicates musically. Notation is the fundamental language of music. Playing by ear is a means by which to communicate musical ideas, but it relies to an extent on the other musicians having a similar level of ear development. In an ensemble, a coherent, efficient communication means is of paramount importance and as musical complexity increases, so does the need for a universally understood musical communication tool. Reading music removes the constraints and frustrations inherently associated with trying to communicate complex musical ideas to multiple musicians.[/quote] Holy crap. Notation isn't the fundamental language of music. Sound is. The way sounds associate is the universally understood musical communication tool. That what makes it possible for people who can't read music to make music with each other, and for people who aren't even musicians to enjoy it as well. They've been doing it for thousands of years. Oh, and just as an aside, standard notation is completely incapable of expressing some of the musical notions and principles I work with on a daily basis. [quote]A composition course should equip you with both of the main methods available for communicating musical ideas effectively and efficiently, which are playing by ear and learning the universal language of music, standard notation.[/quote] Again, with your "universal language of music" bollocks. It's just a code to translate the notes you want people to play, dude. [quote]What I actually said is that it is scandalous that a music degree course, with a key focus on composition, has not taught you a fundamental basic building block of musical communication.[/quote] Yeah, it omitted that one. Fortunately it taught me many others, which you don't seem even vaguely interested in. Your loss, I suppose. [quote]Your interpretation of my advocacy for the deployment of BOTH methods is rather erroneous - I have explained in considerable detail, the benefits of reading music, particularly in a composition context and specifically why, reading music and playing by ear in combination make the job easier, more efficient and can alter the way in which music is conceived and communicated. I have outlined the benefits. It is unfortunate that you see it as condescending when someone takes the time and effort to explain in detail, the benefits they have found of using two tools for the job, as opposed to one.[/quote] What you've done is described standard notation as the superior way of approaching music. I find it condescending whenever anyone suggests that their preferred approach is beyond a doubt the superior one, when they can't even be bothered to ask if there might be others. [quote]Music is not a competition. Again, I respectfully suggest that it is issues at the core of your degree education which have resulted in a failure to include another method, which might enhance your musical life. Rather than "belittle" your course, I have expressed the opinion that a course focussing on composition, should also teach the fundamental rudiments of reading and writing music, in order to equip you with the efficient tools by which to communicate compositions to musicians, with the scaleability to increase complexity.[/quote] And I respectfully suggest that because you're so obviously uninterested in what else the course has to offer, you save your comments about what it doesn't impose. [quote]I have outlined the benefits of reading music. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain. It is not about being "better," it is about the personal enrichment that comes with reading music. For you, there is a potential personal gain, it is not a competition, nor is there any need for the defensive manner in which you position your arguments. I didn't say I'm any better than you because I can read. What I said is, the ability to read opens up new possibilities and enhances musicianship. It is unfortunate that you choose to interpret contextual insight, as "competitiveness". It would a shame for you to miss out on the joys of reading music - that's my key point.[/quote] And seriously, it would be a shame for you to miss out on the joys of everything else I do to improve my musicianship. But something about your overall tone tells me you'd think that it's way beneath you.

Two grand's a very respectable budget to be going with, dude, and with the Ray you're guaranteed pretty much to find something that gives you a killer sound. You've probably heard this a hundred times, but really the only advice I could give you would be to go hang out in some stores and try out a bunch of stuff. It's gonna be the only way to find a sound that you're really happy with.

[quote name='MythSte' post='479074' date='May 4 2009, 04:13 PM']Its a small old world! The fella you got that Jazz from took my Old Schroeder Cab and an OLP a while back. Us northwest bassist seem to naturally flock together! What happened to matt by the way? I hope its not a touchy subject or anything![/quote] Not hugely touchy, no. He's gonna move to London with Rosa in November, so was gonna quit anyway, and he just bailed early. Not heard from him since though, I dunno. He's still playing bass in Heavy Fluid Addicts.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='479073' date='May 4 2009, 04:12 PM']University is never wasted if you work hard but I don’t understand why anyone would invest in university if it is not a gateway to employment and good employment. It is a expensive indulgence for a hobby, i.e. not making money If you want be a bass player for a living the uni fees will get you lots of privet tuition. “I learned skills that I could now get paid for, were I so inclined.” Why would you not be inclined. Why are you not using your skill for employment this is not a dig or personal just curiosity as to why people invest in uni then do something else. If it’s more money in your day job why go to uni Just some thoughts[/quote] I'm not inclined because of my personal situation. I can't be full time employed or even part-time on a regular basis. I still do work here and there that I wouldn't have had access to had I not learned the skills that I picked up at univeristy, however it's not the kind of work where someone looked at my CV and gave me a job. And regarding why people would do it if it's not a gateway to employment, then yes you can look at it as an expensive indulgence. Or as just the desire to go and learn stuff.

[quote name='Shockwave' post='479063' date='May 4 2009, 04:03 PM']Oh i agree you learn things, i learnt quite a bit, however as you say, it didnt make me a bit more employable, if i had time to not make a career and be an art "Dosser" then i would have gone and started the degree in music tech as well, I like the fact i learnt how to record my own music, and learnt about acoustics. However in my mind College and University are there to make you more employable and get a qualification for a professional career. So to the op, if you have 2 or 3 years free where you'll have alot of fun and dont mind spending alot of money, by all means go for it, if you want a good job and career prospects go take a real degree. I think the only real way a degree in music would help, is if you wanted to start your own business within music, be it a studio, or live rig company. But i still dont think its any replacement for actual world experience.[/quote] Yeah I see what you're getting at. But again, with courses like these it's not an either/or situation, as in either something where you can graduate and there's be a bunch of jobs open to you because you have the piece of paper, or a massive three-year money hole. I didn't take my course with the assumption that I'd have more jobs offered to me on the back end because of it, and I think anyone who does take a similar course on that basis is probably mistaken. I realise that it's a slightly controversial and not massively popular view, but I sincerely believe that it's a good thing for people to go and study something for three years, even if it doesn't translate into employment prospects. It's not like it was at the taxpayers' expense (thanks to New Labour). Sure, it's not for everyone, but then university isn't for everyone and I don't think it should be.

[quote name='MythSte' post='479062' date='May 4 2009, 04:03 PM']I cant say i ever imagined you taking bass duties in march Max! You really do need an Ampeg on full Tilt for that lot... I think im coming to preston to grab that 75 re-issue tomorrow. Im rather excited! I hope its still there![/quote] That's sweet dude. I reckon it'll still be in, stock turnaround in that place is slow as hell. I couldn't swing the Ampeg (bit pricey for me) so I went with a big Ashdown stack. Nice and fat sound though, I reckon with this new Jazz I just picked up it'll be killer.

The problem is more complex than "the courses are sh*t". I know a guy who did the same course as me, bummed around, did sod-all, graduated with a 2.2 and now does bar work. Two other guys on the same course worked their arses off and now have the begginings of what looks like a pretty decent media production company. In my view there are too many people at uni who shouldn't be there because they're not mature enough to take advantage of the possibilities on offer. That's not such a huge deal in courses such as law and what have you because there, like at school, you either do the work or you fail. By comparison it's easy to say that the arts and media courses are just a three-year dossers' holiday, but that's a fairly short-sighted view of the problem. Did the course I did make me more employable? No, not in the sense that someone looking at my CV will be more likely to hire me. But also yes, in the sense that I learned skills that I could now get paid for, were I so inclined.

[quote name='AM1' post='479016' date='May 4 2009, 02:41 PM']Max - I would like to make a point, as a neutral party here whom is not going to advocate one approach with the exclusion of the other. I use both methods of playing by ear and reading music. The combination of both together opens many doors. The insistence on using only one method, to the exclusion of others, is a fundamental example of how a closed mind can rob of you the opportunity to improve your own skillset and musicianship.[/quote] I don't, and if you think that I do then you've misread me. My approach has nothing to do with exclusion. It has to do with getting hold of the appropriate tools for the job. [quote]I have read all of your comments carefully and it does seem that you feel you have to defend the music course. In my opinion, your entire issue with reading standard notation has been cultivated by the fact that you have done a music degree and walked away from it, certified, but you haven't been taught a basic building block of music.[/quote] Of course I have to defend my music course, when there are stuck-up nerds who know nothing about it and yet are prepared to write it off as fundamentally worthless on the basis that it didn't impose upon me to learn one aspect of music theory. [quote]This course has validated, in your mind, the mentality that playing by ear ONLY is adequate enough for your needs.[/quote] You're obviously not a mind-reader, because it wasn't the course that validated that. What validated that is that playing by ear [i]is[/i] currently adequate for my needs. If my needs change I'll take the appropriate measures. [quote]The means by which you undertake, communicate and develop composition change completely when you can read and write standard notation. A long time ago, I arranged Pachelbel's Canon in D for string quartet, by transcribing out all the harmony for each instrument. When you can read music, you can look at a sheet of music and "hear" it in your head, because you recognise intervals on the music, you can see elements of harmony, such as 3rds, 5ths for example. When you are composing for multiple instruments, the ability to read and write proper notation IN COMBINATION WITH a very good ear, opens many, many doors. Being able to read music improves your musicality in a way that it is simply very difficult to elucidate the full benefits on an internet forum.[/quote] Sure, and there are a bunch of other things that you've probably not done that would improve your musicality, and yet I'm not telling you that you [i]have[/i] to do them. [quote]In the context of working with a group of musicians to teach them your compositions - if the music is very simple then a few chords written down and you teaching it by ear is workable - but when the complexity of your music begins to increase, the task of working with those musicans, is going to increase exponentially and become difficult, frustrating, inefficient and constrained.[/quote] Yeah, quite, and as I said, if I start doing that I'll learn to read standard notation. [quote]The fact that you paid for and undertook a music degree course, particularly with composition as a key element - and were not taught how to read and transcribe standard notation is utterly scandalous, an outrage. Rather than accept that you should have been taught properly, by THE TEACHING OF [b]BOTH[/b] METHODS, you are defending that course and your subsequent decision to use only one of the two musical methods available that will enhance your musicianship.[/quote] Two methods? [i]Two?[/i] Jesus, are you [i]nuts?[/i] There's literally [i]hundreds[/i] of methods to enhance musicianship. [quote]It is deeply saddening that this course has somehow "validated" your belief that using one method and excluding another will not deprive you of a huge opportunity to improve your own musicianship. Sometimes we have to remove the blinkers and keep an open mind even when the natural instinct might be to automatically dismiss something without even trying it. Don't dismiss learning to read - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.[/quote] You're telling [i]me[/i] to remove my blinkers, and yet you're making assumptions about me based on a few posts I've made (which you've clearly misread), and like our friend rslaing writing off a degree course because it doesn't happen to require something you mistakenly believe to be one of only two ways to improve as a musician. And you've also contradicted yourself - you opened your post by saying that you weren't going to advocate one position with the exclusion of the other, and yet what you've done here, granted in a more civil way than rslaing, but just as obtusely - is to claim that it's not possible to run a respectable degree course in music without forcing people to learn standard notation, and implied rather directly that non-readers are missing out on some kind of higher level of musicianship that you of course have access to because you know what the dots mean. So kudos for being more civil than rslaing, but you've been just as condescending and conservative about reading music as he has. What you guys are forgetting is that music's about art and entertainment, not about pitching skill levels against each other. I'm a successful musician because I'm good enough at what I do to write and play what I want and need, and apparently well enough that other people enjoy hearing it. Crucially, the people that I [i]want[/i] to enjoy hearing it. They don't give two wet sh*ts whether or not I can read music. neither do the guys in my band, neither do the writers and engineers I work with when I'm doing production, neither do any of the hundreds of musicians I've worked with, many of whom were classically trained to a very high standard. You can tell me until you're blue in the face that I'd be a far better musician if I learned to read music, but that doesn't mean anything to me because you haven't even heard what I do. You've belittled the course I did based on what it didn't impose, without asking a [i]single question[/i] about what else it had to offer. And you're telling [i]me[/i] that I'm missing out because I'm blinkered? I've never heard what you play, so I won't be arrogant enough to presume to tell you what would make you a better musician, but I will say this: Without exception, of all the musicians I've ever known, by far the best were the people who, regardless of whether or not they could read or write music or whatever else, believed that the quality of the music that people produce comes from their integrity and experience, not how knowledgeable they are about techniques and theory.

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='478900' date='May 4 2009, 12:07 PM']Are the pickups the type with the detachable plastic casing? Can you insert a shim so the plastic case sits up a bit higher but the pickup coils remain at the correct height? -or build up a bit more height on top of the case with some black plastic? Or fix a proper thumbrest to use that doesn't involve the pickups?[/quote] I can't get the casing to sit separately from the pickup, as I play fairly hard and whatever solution I work out that way comes loose pretty quick (unless I used glue, I suppose, which I don't wanna do). I've also tried thumbrests, but none of them really sit in the right position for playing comfort. I think I'm just gonna have to go with slightly higher action and slightly less pickup height. It's not that big of a deal.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='478589' date='May 3 2009, 09:46 PM']the integrity invoved in the aural tradition of music making has a pedigree probably going back tens of thousands of years and if neuro scientists are to be believed, our very evolution alongside music making has meant that music is actually embedded in our make up, and chimes with our core.[/quote] Nah mate, clearly people who played music before standard notation was invented were nothing but lazy mediocre hacks who wouldn't recognise musical inspiration if it walked up and smacked them in the face. It's only when some guys decided to put it together on paper that REAL musicians began to appear.

I'm setting up my jazz bass, but the problem I have is that I like a relatively low action, but I use the neck pickup as a thumbrest while playing. The problem there is that I can't get the strings as low as I'd like and the pickup as high as it need to be to support my thumb without the pickup starting to pull at the strings, which as you know takes them out of tune. Does anyone else get this issue, and is there a fix for it, or will I need to compromise?

[quote name='rslaing' post='478579' date='May 3 2009, 09:39 PM']A witty reply will do..don't lower the tone by getting personal please [/quote] Do you even understand what "getting personal" means? Or is it just that you think it's okay for you to do it but not others?

[quote name='rslaing' post='478566' date='May 3 2009, 09:32 PM']Thanks for the compliment (or have I read that incorrectly.........like I give a toss )[/quote] Man, I [i]wish[/i] you didn't give a toss what we think of you. Maybe you'd have actually flounced out when you said you were going to.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478562' date='May 3 2009, 09:28 PM']There's nothing to convert! I understand an amount of music theory. I find it interesting. I also appreciate that there are plenty of musicians who are infinitely better than me that know absolutely no theory. I also don't believe that by learning to read they would definitely become better musicians. I judge the ability of a musician by the noises they make, not what they can write in a book.[/quote] No no, you don't get it. You don't know how to read music as well as rslaing, ergo you're a musical imbecile. And lazy, to boot. Me too, man. There's a lot of us about. But we're only kidding ourselves. We're not REAL musicians. We're [i]imaginary[/i] musicians.

[quote name='rslaing' post='478481' date='May 3 2009, 08:08 PM']Perhaps a close second to you. Sorry that I don't write what you want to read. But maybe that isn't important - as in music?[/quote] I give up. For someone who reckons he's so clever, you're spectacularly obtuse. Not that my point needs making any more clearly. You're on your own here, pal. Well, you and the rest of the guys down at the REAL Musicians' club.

[quote name='Cornfedapache' post='478462' date='May 3 2009, 07:36 PM']Ah-ha! Cheers What's best - or does it depend on the string?[/quote] You mean the best setting? That's entirely down to a case-by-case thing, but there are some really helpful guides knocking about that will show you how to set up string height and intonation, I think there might even be a few videos on youtube showing how to do it.

[quote name='rslaing' post='478461' date='May 3 2009, 07:34 PM']QUOTE "it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting." "people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering" "I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities" I wonder who wrote that? I thought you were going, anyway? " Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't want to get equally personal.[/quote] When you say that, do you mean you don't want to get as personally insulting as you were being when you slagged off my degree that you know sod-all about, or perhaps when you indirectly insulted me - and every other musician on this board or elsewhere who for whatever reason doesn't read music - by calling us lazy, creatively limited and whatever else you said up there? [quote]I really just wanted to make a valid contribution from personal experience, my points made are done so on the back of around 35 years of teaching. But you might have a point, perhaps the hundred or so pupils I have worked with are the exception........................(I doubt it) - regardless, these are just my opinions, and I suggest you don't let them affect you (as they seem to be). The facts from my experience are that the players that have attained a higher level of musicianship - have also learned to read music as well as develop their ear. But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by other peoples experience.[/quote] That's hilarious. You've as much as categorically stated that any musician who doesn't read music is inevitably lazy and sh*t. You expect us to believe that you're now "open" to the notion that people who don't read music might be worthy of your attention? [quote]If someone is happy toddling along learning bass patterns "off pat" and by copying other players, thats fine too. But it is my belief that they are limiting their potential and their enjoyment of what they are doing. I just think that players can experience more and develop themselves to a higher level by learning to read and write music.[/quote] Yeah, because that's all non-readers do, "toddle off" bass patterns and copy other people. Whereas readers, meanwhile, are indulging in a festival of unbridled creativity, correct? Dude, seriously. Do you have any idea how arrogant, condescending and close-minded you're coming across as?

[quote name='rslaing' post='478447' date='May 3 2009, 07:17 PM']But the book for people who don't want to learn to read and write music obviously does...................[/quote] [quote]"it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting." "people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering" "I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities"[/quote] I wonder who wrote that? I thought you were going, anyway?

[quote name='Cornfedapache' post='478433' date='May 3 2009, 07:07 PM']What are the differences in sound between the coils that move the string-holder thingies (names? You'd never guess I'm mainly self taught, would you?) up and down and the screws on the back of the bridge that move them forwards and backwards? Is one to do with resonance?[/quote] Basically, the screws on the back of the bridge that move the saddles (string holders) across the bridge are used to adjust intonation (to make sure that the string is in tune over the whole length of the neck). The screws that raise and lower the saddles are mainly there for string height adjustment, although they can also affect intonation to a small degree as well.