AM1

[quote name='Eight' post='391558' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:39 AM']Hahahah - I bought that same book last week. Had the same experience with it actually.[/quote] You see my point? No endless faffing replaying sections to hear and learn notes, just plug and play! I spent four hours with it last night, eventually I had to stop as my wrist was aching like a b*stard!

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='390107' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:52 PM']Obviously there was always going to be a clear split in opinion on this subject between the hobbyists & the pros, TBBC.[/quote] I disagree. There are pros that can't read just as there are hobbyists that can. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391223' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:54 PM']As a pro, learning to read is great. It pays your mortgage. I have no desire to be a pro (in the non-band sense). I hate too much music to ever be a session guy. And I'm crap. I can clearly see the doors it opens, but not everyone wants those doors opened! I'd like to be able to read, but not so much as to invest the effort to learn. No one in my band reads, so my knowledge would be wasted on them.[/quote] Reading music doesn't just benefit pros. Whether your band reads or not is irrelevant to YOUR personal development as a bass player. These are just more self-justifications for not learning to read. You have repeatedly said you would like to be able to read but you're not willing to invest the effort to learn. I think your own barriers are holding you back as well as your own misconceptions about the effort needed to learn to read. Reading music is not difficult nor it is it a big effort of your time. A little bit of work, a bit at a time and you'd be there. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391495' date='Jan 26 2009, 10:47 AM']Please point me in the direction of a formally trained musician who is currently producing great music.[/quote] Dave Marks - I wasn't too keen on some of the stuff at first but now I really rate it in terms of musicianship. Check out Jo Webb & The Dirty Hands, these guys rock! I saw them live last week, absolutely excellent. Dave is a classic example of the benefits of some decent music education. You still maintain that there are no benefits from reading/theory. I am learning some Police songs at the moment (off the scores) and I have watched a few people on the web trying to play them by ear. I didn't see a single person that was able to play those songs with A) the correct phrasing B ) the correct techniques including muted notes and hammer-ons (slurs) that epitomise Sting's writing style C) the correct notes D) the correct note lengths E) the correct rests F) the correct timing. But that's all in the score. Butchering other musicians' work is NOT cool. Similarly, yesterday I bought the Bass Tab White Pages. There are some songs in there that I don't know - but was able to play straight off the score. Same goes for the songs I do know, it was quicker to play straight off the dots. When you read music, you can look at it and actually hear the music in your head. You can recognise intervals, which then also means should you choose to play by ear, you can take the start note (knowing the key as well) and learn quicker by ear because you can see which intervals to go to. Reading music can also help with timing and rhythm. You are doing yourself a great injustice by maintaining such a closed mind.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389834' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:34 PM']It's not an excuse at all.....[/quote] Fair enough man, my point was just....don't write yourself off.... P.S. You mentioned Jazz a few times...now there's something that DOES kill dolphins!

I am another advocate of reading music. But there has to be a balance. I will go completely against what Bilbo said - if you focus TOO much on reading, it's easy to become a note-reading chimp and lose creative ability for improvisation. I have noticed this with a lot of classical musicians. Equally, I have met a few musicians, whom can't read a note, but are fantastic musicians. With reading, you can get to the point where you can't pick up an instrument and just play along to music, without having notes written down. THAT is not a good thing...anyone can become either a note reading chimp or a bassline jukebox chimp. So I wouldn't choose one learning methodology over the other, but rather, combine them both. A musician who can both improvise and who can read has all the tools at their disposal to cope with just about any situation. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389491' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:21 PM']I think its very unlikely I'll ever learn to read dots. A number of reasons. I don't have the time, I'm never gonna be a pro, my natural musical ability means I'll never be great, and I play for fun. When practice becomes a chore, then it aint for me. I have discipline in my proffessional life, I don't want it in my free time.[/quote] These are classic excuses and self-justifications for not putting in some work and seeing the rewards. Hardly anyone is really a "natural" musician, most people have to work at some element of it, be it timing, practical playing, learning songs, etc. You say you'll never be great - how do you know, if you put no effort into it? It is surprising what can be achieved by being stubborn and determined. But if you write yourself off before you even try, you'll never find out, this is really sad to dismiss yourself. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389563' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:04 PM']I know some theory, it gets me by, I quite enjoy learning some of it. But if I'm honest with myself, I don't have the discipline or desire to learn to read. As an aside, my lack of motivation to read may be linked to the fact that the majority of the musicians who I admire most aren't the worlds most profficient readers.[/quote] It really does not take long to learn to read music. I am not saying this is the case with you - but I know loads of people that say they don't have time to do stuff - but they watch loads of TV. If they got rid of it, voila - they instantly have many extra hours in the week, to do constructive stuff. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389563' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:04 PM']Sounds harsh but deep down I always kinda feel that learning is for geeks! OK I went to University, but I made it a point of principle not to actually learn anything.[/quote] Life IS learning - maybe this "punk" interpretation is just another self-justifying mechanism to avoid challenging yourself. What have you got to lose? By standing still and justifying it in your own way, the only person losing out is YOU.

[quote name='ped' post='379565' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:54 PM']I don't think in ear monitoring could replace an oxygen tank, but I would be the first to suggest you try! ped[/quote] I see you're in a similar sporting mood to me this evening Must take a long time, this forum creation

[quote name='lowdown' post='379549' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:44 PM']Seems like you are ready to leave the Beginner forum already. One month of playing Bass and you are already lugging gear around ! That aint bad...... Garry[/quote] Garry No, unfortunately I was referring to some of my other hobbies! I think basket weaving may be the way forward!

[quote name='ped' post='379540' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:33 PM']Can't be arsed[/quote] Can't really argue with that! Bah, can't get the staff Let's talk about Roland V-Bass instead then! My back is already caving in with piling more and more gear on it, so is this in-ear monitoring stuff any good?

[quote name='ped' post='379527' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:23 PM']Phew! That's that sorted then. Next? ;0)[/quote] It seems you are wise enough not to argue with the superior sex Next...don't you have some coding to do?

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='379524' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:21 PM']You joined BassChat on 6th December and you have been playing bass [i]for around a month[/i]. Does that mean your first step towards learning to play bass was to join BassChat?[/quote] No. It would be somewhat unrealistic to expect to learn to play an instrument from scratch, using only an internet forum. [quote name='Happy Jack' post='379524' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:21 PM']The word "beginner" has different meanings to different people. I picked up a bass for the first time just over three years ago, but I still consider myself a "beginner" and that's not false modesty. Your needs in a Beginner's Forum would be quite different from mine.[/quote] It is therefore obvious that player development is something that the forum needs to expand upon, both for absolute beginners and others. Regards AM

[quote name='ped' post='379516' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:16 PM']Are you asking me or telling me [/quote] I'm female, what do you think?!!! Coat on, running for the door!

[quote name='ped' post='379182' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:34 PM']I am still waiting for these 'resources' too...[/quote] Ped I am still waiting for a definitive response on whether or not a dedicated beginner's section will be created, even on a trial basis. It is evident that the Wiki can be expanded and I have given you suggestions in my previous posts for this. Even putting all the suggested resources into a Wiki, doesn't provide what I am asking to be provided, which is a sub-forum, where new players can identify each other, interact and those wish to assist with questions, can do so in a mentoring capacity. I am another room to room person. Regards AM

[quote name='tauzero' post='379168' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:29 PM']I think my own views reflect those of Eight, Alex and Ped. When I read AM's initial post, my first thought was that a beginners' sub-forum wouldn't get far if it didn't have experienced people in it. Rebranding Theory and Technique as Learning for All (or something like that so it's not exclusive to beginners) would help. Gear advice is another question, if you ask n BCers for an opinion then you'll get a minimum of n+1 opinions, at least 50% of which will be entirely unsuitable to the requirement or cost at least twice as much as the stated budget, so I don't see that there would be any advantage in having a beginners' bit for that. If the current gear and technical forums aren't ideal for beginners in AM's view, perhaps she could give pointers to what she would actually want from a beginners' section.[/quote] I am playing catch up on recent posts... There appears to be considerable support for a new section in the forum, entitled "Learning" or Player Development or something similar. Within that section, could be sub-forums, i.e. Beginner Section, Theory and Technique, Tutors, etc etc. Regards AM

[quote name='alexclaber' post='378276' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:23 PM']Something that's always bugged me is how theory and technique is such a mislabelled backwater - "for those who like to push the boundaries"??? "For those who'd like to learn" would be a much better statement. A sub-forum that is really centred on developing your bass playing would be a great thing and maybe a 'beginner/learning' rebranding would be a good move for pushing more traffic towards "theory and technique". It may appear that I spend all my time talking about gear but I'm a big advocate of really getting deep into what bass playing is about and I spent much of my early time on the web and forums hunting for the hows and whys of being a bassist. Alex[/quote] Alex Excellent points, I agree. Theory and technique should be in a section all on it's own, with the beginner forum in there, along with the tutor forum. The focus of the overall forum is definitely weighted towards gear, with an imbalance in actual discussions of the foundations of playing. I also do room to room but am disappointed time and time again by lack of substantive discussion on development of playing, theory, techniques and the overall fundamentals of improving as a musician. On the other hand, there is lots of useful information about equipment but the balance needs to be redressed. Regards AM

[quote name='truebassman' post='376430' date='Jan 10 2009, 08:44 PM']AM1 I see BassChat as a forum for Bass Players period. Forget the term 'beginner' or 'intermediate' or 'advanced'. We are ALL THE SAME ![/quote] This is simply not the case. There are a wide variance of experience and skill levels on the forum, just as with any other activity. [quote name='truebassman' post='376430' date='Jan 10 2009, 08:44 PM']YOU are no longer a 'beginner'. The best way to stop 'feeling like a beginner' is doing some practice, then you feel immediately better.[/quote] I have been playing bass for around a month and am quite categorically, a beginner. [quote name='truebassman' post='376430' date='Jan 10 2009, 08:44 PM']I agree it is important for beginners to communicate with each other. But, you can already do this at present through this forum.[/quote] The whole premise of a beginner's forum is to strengthen beginner/mentor relationships and enable beginners to share their experiences and interact. So far, using the wider forum, only one person has communicated with me and identified themselves as a beginner. [quote name='truebassman' post='376430' date='Jan 10 2009, 08:44 PM']TIP: Don't self -analyse, just ENJOY your bass playing whatever. If you ENJOY it, you will get better. If you don't ENJOY it, you should stop playing ?[/quote] Music is always enjoyable. Asking for an addition to the forum resources is entirely unrelated to "self-analysis". [quote name='truebassman' post='376430' date='Jan 10 2009, 08:44 PM']If you are still frustrated, why not start your own Beginners Bass Forum ? I wish you luck.[/quote] There is no frustration here, just a simple suggestion to create an additional section for those new to the bass to share their experiences and learn from those whom wish to help with a mentorship style approach. A new beginner's bass forum, whilst easy to create, would be pointless as there would be no experienced members there to share the benefit of their experience, but thanks for the suggestion. A simple additional sub-forum here would be optimal. Regards AM

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='376395' date='Jan 10 2009, 07:38 PM']Well, in some ways I'm a fairly experienced player - yet in other ways I'm really a beginner (never had lessons, probably very sloppy technique). I would regularly read a beginners' forum. Having quite a bit of gigging and some recording experience I reckon I'd contribute in areas where I could (eg budget gear good enough for gigging).[/quote] 'Lo I'd be well interested in your comments on budget gear for gigging, especially ampage PM is fine if that's easier.

[quote name='mewsie' post='375571' date='Jan 9 2009, 07:34 PM']exaggerating your skill level in your mind is a powerful mental technique when learning and can remove boundaries of possibility, and avoid mental obstacles created by 'labels' (e.g: 'beginner'). as AM said - everyone has their own preferred way of learning and receiving information, so i'm not suggesting it works for everyone.[/quote] Hey mewsie I've found that after a few medicinal sherries, my skill level, in my mind at least, increases exponentially! Mehehe. I don't want to sound like a hippie but the vibe on this thread is Soooooo positive and there is muchos support amongst beginners and experienced alike, for a beginner's forum. Ped, my work here is done. Your serve C'mon man, let's make it happen!! Bring it on!!

[quote name='LWTAIT' post='375468' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:00 PM']i gotta say im coming round to the idea very slightly after reading dmanlamius' first reply. i've not noticed many of the things he says he has noticed, such as questions being unanswered and snobbery, but then, i was a member of bassworld and have been a member on here for a long time, maybe i'm used to it? i might even be one of those snobs, but i definatly try not to be. if he says he's noticed it, i dont doubt he has. i've been looking at basschat from a beginners point of view since i read this thread, and to be honest i can see how it could sort of lower your confidence being surrounded by so many talented players. i still stand by the comments i made before, but i'm seeing why you would be for it and theres a part of me that agrees.[/quote] I admire and respect your objectivity and it was very decent of you to post your changing views. [quote name='alexclaber' post='375534' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:57 PM']I'm glad you said that, I was getting a horrible vision of the blind leading the blind...[/quote] In the valley of the blind, the one eyed man is king. [quote name='alexclaber' post='375534' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:57 PM']What could be quite useful in the sense of a beginner forum is that we're not all equally well rounded bass players and some who are very experienced at playing bass may be relative beginners at certain facets of bass playing and could thus benefit from an environment where that facet can be addressed from the most basic level. For instance I'm incredibly slow at reading music and not much cop at jazz thangs like walking and soloing but on the flipside in the musical scenarios I normally create I'm the baddest of badasses. It doesn't feel that long ago that I was starting out (ok, twelve years isn't exactly last week) but I can still remember so many things that seemed so hard which I can do in my sleep now.[/quote] It is growingly increasingly obvious that it is not just absolute beginners, whom will benefit from a new players/beginners section. [quote name='Dmanlamius' post='375581' date='Jan 9 2009, 07:46 PM']Visualisation is a great tool for learning. It's funny you should mention that, because i'm writing a book about it at the moment. I've studied a lot of martial arts on my travels as well as played a lot of bass, and I noticed a massive similarities in how we learn both (scales equating kata's, etc) Mostly with how the mind effects our physical bodies... I used to visualize playing the perfect gig, the night before a gig, just before drifting off to sleep. The results were amazing. I also started teaching other bands that were on the road with us, also with brilliant results. I'm now writing these techniques down for other people to benefit from. It's very, very interesting stuff![/quote] Agreed - visualisation is an incredibly powerful tool, I use it often myself. Dmanlamius, you made a number of useful points regarding the perspectives of beginners and how easily they can lose confidence and give up. Unfortunately, I have to agree, this is a known phenomenon in some of my other hobbies and I have seen new beginners walk away from an initial time and money investment and give up, as a direct consequence of comments made by those more experienced in certain disciplines. Elitism and snobbery have no place in music and not everyone is fortunate enough to have access to the same resources, such as private lessons, for example. Expediting a beginner's forum here can only be of benefit to those persons, as well as many more experienced players and will strengthen the community, by facilitating pupil/mentor relationships and encouraging interaction. I am working on learning the fretboard at the moment and have found some extremely useful resources. There is no reason why a Wiki or a beginner's forum can't have a section to encompass these resources, or indeed a set of fretboard diagrams. There are already multitudes of questions, if one searches, from new players asking how to learn the fretboard. A beginner's section is undoubtedly something that needs to be an integral part of the forum. A number of people have volunteered to assist in the mentoring/moderating capacity and I am certainly prepared to contribute as many resources and reviews as possible since I am on the learning curve. It will save others so much time in locating valuable information and I would like to share the benefit of my research, to assist others. Regards AM

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='374666' date='Jan 9 2009, 12:17 AM']Ok - so the real challenge would be to moderate it... In the world I work in (Voluntary Community Sector), mentoring plays a valuable role in helping people new to a situation gain the skills and confidence they need to progress, whether they're new to a job or a school, a charity etc, etc.. and as a rule, it works really well. One definition of mentoring is: [i]"Mentoring is to support and encourage people to manage their own learning in order that they may maximise their potential, develop their skills, improve their performance and become the person they want to be." [/i] It's also about allowing the new person to explore new ideas in confidence.. So if your idea were to become a reality, then perhaps more established members could contribute to a Beginners Forum in a sort of mentoring capacity, leaving plenty of space for beginners to interact at a level that's comfortable for them but being there to help if needed? Just a thought....[/quote] Nik You have elucidated perfectly the spirit of what a beginner's section should encompass. Mentoring is exactly what I had in mind. Whilst I am an advocate of "recognised" learning methodology, I am also a proponent, in the strongest possible terms, of the merits of a great mentor. In the past, I have been both the "student" and the mentor in various activities and they are both equally rewarding. Some people naturally have the propensity for mentoring, others lack the patience. You strike me as the former. Regards AM

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='374618' date='Jan 8 2009, 11:22 PM']+1 I think there would be much more traffic in a Beginners Forum than there currently is on some of the other Forums that we already have here, especially as the site is growing rapidly with new and inexperienced players joining all the time. When I first started playing as a kid back in the '70s, it took me years to find things out, which was so frustrating! So whenever I tell people about what's so great about Basschat, I point out that it is a fabulous and wonderful resource that offers short-cuts to learning just about everything there is to learn about being a bass player and about basses and gear. Which is great... .. But IMO, there has been a change in the atmosphere over the last 6-9 months or so and I do believe that in some respects, Basschat isn't quite as friendly or as open as it was during the first year or so. And if I was a new person to the site, I think I might find that quite intimidating or off-putting, especially if I was a little unsure of either my own confidence or what kind of reaction I might get from other more established members. And in those circumstances, I think I would naturally gravitate towards a Beginners Forum until I felt a bit more confident and a bit more established. Out of interest, what would it actually take to set it up and run it?[/quote] Hi Nik I meant to respond to your excellent first post on the topic, but you beat me to it with another excellent contribution. To set up another forum is a simple administrative task and achievable quickly. To run it, the adminstrative overhead is small, however the moderation overhead may be a different matter. With the right positive attitude, a well-managed beginner's section will enhance the forum significantly and I would be happy to kick it off by adding my reviews of some beginner bass books I am currently working through. I have emailed the authors and afforded them the opportunity in the first instance, to see any reviews, prior to publication. If enough people contribute this kind of material, eventually it should be possible to create a directory of reviews, which will undoubtedly make matters easier for the average beginner, picking up the instrument for the first time, who may not have the resources for private lessons and finds themselves faced with a vast array of bass learning books. Regards AM

[quote name='pete.young' post='374616' date='Jan 8 2009, 11:20 PM']It may come as a surprise to you, but this forum doesn't exist just to provide what you think you may need or want.[/quote] Where did I state that it did? I made a simple point, in support of my request for a beginner's forum. The point made is that sometimes beginners need to ask basic questions and hopefully obtain basic answers, in order to quickly move on and facilitate practice and progress. Wading through searches isn't conducive to using time constructively, on practical application. [quote name='pete.young' post='374616' date='Jan 8 2009, 11:20 PM']You've made your point. The best thing you can do now is to sit back and watch the discussion develop. Picking out individual points in individual posts and arguing the toss with the moderators before they have formed their opinions may work in the technical diving world, but in this forum it is more likely to prejudice them against your opinion in my experience.[/quote] You are not privy to the private discussions ongoing between myself and moderators here with regards to my request, so kindly do not purport to make assumptions regarding how I conduct my debates, either regarding bass playing or indeed other activities. Also, no moderator has shown any prejudice to my opinions, therefore your comment seems unfounded and rather unfair to them. [quote name='pete.young' post='374616' date='Jan 8 2009, 11:20 PM']The Wiki is a great idea, but despite the efforts of Bassferret history shows that most people can't be bothered with it. A shame, but there you go.[/quote] Unfortunately your only contribution to the actual subject matter fails to actually disseminate any constructive material. Just because something may not have succeeded in the past, is no reason not to exercise a degree of tenacity and try again, indeed utilising the technical platform in a different manner may facilitate a workable solution, with some commitment and input from appropriate parties. Warm regards AM

[quote name='Dmanlamius' post='374268' date='Jan 8 2009, 05:48 PM']I think it's a great idea. That Wiki...I was advised to stick all my lessons up there, but it's a bit hard to understand, and no-one would give me any advice on it. I've seen some great musical snobbery on this forum (most likely from people that don't have the right or accolades to be snobs . My thoughts are on confidence. I've noticed many questions ignored. I've noticed many people made to look like they are "wasting peoples time" when asking questions as well. On a whole, this is a good forum and people are friendly and willing to help. But one act of arrogance and snobbery of one person alone can knock someones confidence enough for them to not bother with the instrument. Those people that see fit to stick their noses up wouldn't bother visiting a beginners forum, would they? It would keep those that would sincerely like to help beginners in one central place. Those people that are annoyed by questions, don't need to be anywhere near that part. I've had plenty of mails from people, asking me questions because they are a little un-confident to post, or they "don't want to look stupid". I think that a beginners forum would become a great resource where they could all bounce ideas and learning off of each other. Those that feel a little more confident in their ability could still visit the rest of the forums, and happily gain information like they were before. Think of it as a nest, before they move on...[/quote] Agree wholeheartedly. Well said that man!!!!!

[quote name='LWTAIT' post='374220' date='Jan 8 2009, 04:56 PM']when i ask questions, i like it when people go off talking about other things, i then look the other things up or ask about them, and not only do i learn what i asked about, but i learn about other things too. i always find any questions get asked, and i think discouraging a "discursive" nature in the general discussion section will ruin the community spirit we have in basschat.[/quote] The community spirit for whom? As a complete beginner, what contribution or engagement can I have with technical subject matter, i.e. ampage? Absolutely none and right at this point in time, it is not relevant or helpful to me as a player anyway. I am detail oriented and focussed therefore sometimes I don't want a tangential debate, I want to ask a question and get a variety of perspectives on that specific subject matter. [quote name='LWTAIT' post='374220' date='Jan 8 2009, 04:56 PM']i think a wiki aimed at beginners wouldnt work, if im honest. we havent got enough information on the wiki atm IMHO. and why cant we add anything aimed at beginners into the normal wiki? i bet a fair few people wouldnt read the beginners wiki, thinking it wouldnt hold anything of value to them (i also think the same about a beginners forum).[/quote] This is quite dismissive - a wiki or a section for beginners would be a brilliant resource. It was the first thing I looked for here. [quote name='LWTAIT' post='374220' date='Jan 8 2009, 04:56 PM']i'm not sure if there is one, but i think there should be a forum or a sticky in the techniques section or something about available books, and maybe a sub forum or a begginers section of the sticky outlining books available for beginners. i also think maybe a sticky in the techniques section for beginners is a good idea, but i think its a bad idea to split beginners and more experienced players.[/quote] There are no better people to be writing reviews on beginners books, than beginners themselves. I went to a music shop recently and had a look at the vast array of books for beginner bass players. There are multitudes of "become a maestro quick" books but it is very difficult to decide which ones will get you where you want to go. Everyone has different goals when they pick up an instrument. [quote name='LWTAIT' post='374220' date='Jan 8 2009, 04:56 PM']i cant see why a beginner would want to identify another beginner on basschat, i cant see what use comes of that? we were all beginners once and most of us can remember what that was like. and why would you ask advice from other beginners? it makes more sense to read what more experienced players are saying, ask more experienced players and just try to surround yourself by more experienced players. you will progress much further that way.[/quote] I identified another beginner (a much more advanced beginner though!) on here not long ago and we now talk every single day, comparing notes on practice techniques, progress, different tunes to learn etc. This has proved invaluable to me in terms of motivation, support/encouragement when sometimes it's not coming together, advice about various beginner resources and an avenue to direct my many questions. Otherwise I was doing a few people's heads in with constant emails and texts asking basic questions. Furthermore, I would like to think I have given something back, by explaining that I have had a few lessons and what I was taught and encouraging that person to try a few "evaluation" lessons in order to direct progress going forward. The forum doesn't have to be called "beginner" if that offends people's political sensitivities. A place of learning for all, but may be particularly useful to those new to the bass, will do. Regards AM