mikel

Fair enough, but If they have priced them at there minimum mark up rather than loading the price, then thats what they want. Where they not worth the asking price? Or do you refuse to buy anything on principal unless you can get a discount?

Have a bump on me. Still trying to convince the board that this would be a prudent purchase.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476987092' post='3159067']
Ours aren't, RCF 735 or 745 tops can handle the whole mix, bass, kick the lot. I was at a professional theatre watching a band yesterday, the smaller little side venue (150ish people) has the same ones as us hanging from the roof with full pro touring bands going through them, upright bass, full drum kit. I could hear the acoustic guitar strumming from my seat and the band members quiet talking voices yet the room was full of big fat plummy double bass, if he'd put an amp on stage big enough to fill the room including the articulate pieces the guitarists would need louder amps, the vocals louder wedges,then the drummer hits harder, guitarist turns up, bass now needs to come up in the mix, rinse and repeat!
This is

[b]not to say it can't work, a small vocal PA and reasonable backline with clued up users can work well, if you are in that band then I'd say you were the exception rather than the rule.[/b]
[/quote]

What I meant was WE only use the tops for vocals in pubs. Crystal clear cos there are no other frequencies to get in the way. Can work? It works every night for most bands that play pub gigs.Been doing it myself for 25 plus years. Drag the whole PA to a pub? We have much better things to do.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476985647' post='3159047']
Why? Subs give the low end frequencies that tops just can't give.
There's a difference between fidelity and volume. The latter has to be appropriate for the venue.
[/quote]

In a pub a backline is way more than appropriate. A bass cab gives all the low end needed, and at low volume. The tops are purely for the vocals.

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476978877' post='3158967']
Sendind everything to the PA provides a better overall sound mix. If the bass rig has to provide enough "heft" for the entire room then certainly it will be too loud on stage and will bother every bandmate (the same applies to the rest of the instruments). I can gig with my Promethean combo if needed, it just needs to be loud enough to cut through the drum set on stage and i allways EQ out the sub-lows from my rig so that it doesn't muddy the stage sound and everybody can hear it as articulate as possible. Let the subs do all the heavy lifting with the sub-80Hz region.

"Playing 4 hours in front of a rig turned up to fill the entire room? Madness, i say!" (Sorry Mikel, had to do it )
[/quote]

Tops and subs in a pub? Way over the top. We play at a very reasonable volume, people dont want to be pinned against the wall when having a drink. We dont try to kill each other during rehearsal either, thats why we dont mic up there. I can hear clearly every instrument and the vocal monitor means I can also hear the harmonies. No problem. In small venues big PAs are just an ego thing and an over complication.

Looks nice. What is the weight and dimensions, please?

Bristol is handy for me.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1476891864' post='3158195']
I think these types of opportunities are more readily available in the States than in the UK. But , I agree it's about being in the right place at the right time and able to get up and at short notice.

Blue
[/quote]

Yep, and there are lots and lots of musicians can do that, and as I say the young guys on the way up will do it for nothing to get a foot in the door.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1476893902' post='3158230']
We use only tops in pub-size venues. The bass through our Hiwatt and HH cab give as good as any sub, so we wouldn't benefit. Vox only, and a smidgen of bass drum in the tops (no 'bottom-end punch, just a presence, that's all...). No point in a pair of subs either; the bass will be spread just fine with just one in most venues. That's what the bass cab is [i]for[/i], in fact..!
[/quote]

/\ Exactly. Mic up everything in a pub room? Total overkill.

Never mic anything up for a pub or club gig. We trust each other as musicians to get our prefered sound on stage. The vocalist advises on instrument balance from out front, but we have done it so often its usually spot on anyway. Guitarist sets the vocal mics from out front. Job done. Getting a good bass sound from a small PA rig, in a pub, is difficult as most dont move enough air and volume will be low. When we are lucky enough to do a big venue the sound system is in place with a proper sound guy who can usually get the sound I want out front and in the monitors. Still try to use my backline if possible.

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1476885604' post='3158113']
I really liked Police stuff up to Synchronicity but, as with so many UK bands who start to crack the US, they morphed into stadium-rock. [b]Out when the reggae touches an the spare production and then it all got a bit over produced.[/b] I don't get the anti-Sting stuff at all. So he's pro-environment. When's that ever been a crime, other than in Trumpworld?
[/quote]

Must admit, I prefer there stuff up to the Synchronicity album, not that its bad just over produced and polished. Yep, nowt wrong with standing up for the environment. As for Bono, everyone knows what you get with him and U2. Lots of there songs are political so he is bound to mention it at a gig.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1476879796' post='3158009']

[/quote]

Ahhhh. Real vintage Watts. None of your solid state mularky there.

The thing is Blue your posts concentrate on you earning more for doing less. Thats the way they read. As has been pointed out, the headliners bands are almost a closed shop. These guys have been touring with the big acts for years and are well known in the industry, be it regional or national. It is beyond difficult to break into this environment unless you bring something different or unique to the party. Most of the young guys, still on the way up, will play for nothing to get into the top bunch of musicians.

As a well respected musician once said "If you get into music to make money you will be disappointed, but If you get into music to make music you will always be happy"

Its fine people saying go for it. Go for what, and how? Its not like you can pitch up at the DSS and apply for a job as a pro musician. Its a chicken and egg situation. Ask the pro musicians how they got where they are and most will tell you "Right place at the right time" ie luck.

What I discern, even from the more technically minded on here, is that there is no answer as to why bassists now need 1000 watts when back in the day, when gigs and indeed rehearsals were loud enough to make me temporarily deaf, 100 was fine.. So as one wag just said, watts are obviously not what they used to be.

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1476836366' post='3157735']
One point that is being overlooked is the difference in speaker technology.

I used a 120 watt Orange graphic head back in the day. With a 2x15" cabinet with 2 very efficient Altec Lansing speakers in it.
Nowadays it is a MarkBass LM3 into a 2x10" 4ohm Neo cabinet, which of course means the amp i giving out a max of 500 watts into that 4ohm load.
BUT. The neos are down in the 96dB efficiency range whereas the old Altecs were well over 100db efficiency.
This translates into more air being moved by the Altecs for a given amount of power applied than is possible with the LM3.

So it does mean that far more than just the simple application of "well it four times the power, why aint it four times louder" needs to be taken into consideration.
[/quote]

I dont disagree with any of this, but plug your 1000 watt solid state amp into your Altec loaded cab in an AB test with the Orange and what would be the result? Thats what I am trying to discern, is there a marked difference in the watt rating for modern solid state amps compared with valve amps, now or from back in the 70s?

Songwriter. You can have the best musicians on the planet but without great songs they dont amount to much.

Glen Cornick on the early Jethro Tull albums. A great musical bassist who's lines defined a lot of the tracks. Not complex but so inventive and melodic.

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1476735255' post='3156858']
1. Big multidriver heavy cabs = many more dB (usually)
2. Amps were driven harder..
3. Bands that want to be loud are louder than they were..
4. I remember having a Hiwatt DR201 with a 1 x 15 cab back in the day and I had to push it very hard to keep up with a 100W marshall with a 412..
[/quote]

Still no real answer to my question. Why a 1000 watt solid state amp when an old 100 watt valve amp can make your ears bleed? Why is a 1000 watt solid state not producing twice the DBs of a 100 watt valve?

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1476735370' post='3156859']
you have the situation where you are business minded and fairly free.

you are questioning the need to play 4 hour shows and lugging gear, something which until today you have been totally happy to do so if your other posts have been anything to go by.

imo, you've made your mind up and you should be out there looking for a touring band not sitting here trying to justify it to yourself or us
[/quote]

/\ This. You have made your mind up you are better than the band and music you are playing. Asking a forum, based in Britain, what they think about you doing what you want to do, in the US music business, seems a bit odd. I for one have no idea what the gig situation is in the States.

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1476734296' post='3156844']
I'm sure many other people will chime in - but to sound twice as loud, you need about 10 times the watts... See picture attached..

[b]Watts are Watts are Watts[/b]... They're the same whether class A SS, Class D SMPS or Valve.. How fast an amp can deliver a transient and then sustain it is an entirely different matter.

But crudely SS amps sound nasty when you push the power stage into distortion whereas valve amps not so much so..

In my experience my Glockenklang Heart Rock is comfortably louder than my Mesa Four:88. My RH750 is about as loud as my Mesa.. But that's not a true 750W RMS (not even near). All into the same cabs..

All of them are capable of blowing my bandmates off the stage..
[/quote]

Possibly, but how did bassists back in the day get away with a couple of 100 watt valve amps and a couple of 4 x 12s, even for the biggest gigs,when no self respecting pro bassist now uses less than a 1000 watt amp?

Any guys out there have any idea what the ratio is between valve watts and, for want of a better definition, solid state watts?

We now have 1000 watt bass amps, and even greater, when an old 120 watt Orange valve bass head through a 4 x 12 or a 2 x 15 would blow your head off. Our bass player back in the 70s had this setup and never got it above 5 on the master before he drowned out the rest of our 5 piece band. Using 8 of these, about 1000 watts, would have caused an earthquake.

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1476704361' post='3156400']
Love The Police and a fair chunk of his solo output. I remember saying to a friend around the time of the Lute album "it's really hard staying a Sting fan sometimes". Didn't think much of his recent session on Jools either.

I missed The Police first time round but caught them in 2007 in Vienna (brilliant - one of a few standing gigs they did) and Wembley Arena (so so). I saw him first at the Human Rights Now show at Wembley Stadium in 198something, round about the time of Nothing Like The Sun, and on the tour for the same album at Wembley Arena. Bassist then was Tracy Wormworth from The Waitresses! (that's her on Christmas Wrapping). I saw the Back To Bass show a couple of years ago as well, that was pretty good.

Added props for some brilliant basslines in The Police, agree Ten Sumner's Tales is his best. Also love The Lazarus Heart from NLTS, Jeremiah Blues Pt 1, Dream Of The Blue Turtles (with Demolition Man on Bring On The Night - wow), Moon Over Bourbon St, live album All This TIme is surprisingly good. Bonus points for ongoing use of Moog Taurus synth pedals.

Wooden spoon for the "greatest hits with orchestra" thing, trying to be too clever-clever, the Lute album, the musical, the beard, buddy-buddy tours with Peter Gabriel and Paul Simon,[b] telling his kids they're not inheriting anything.[/b]
[/quote]

I believe what he meant was that he didnt want them just sitting about doing nowt with there lives cos they would just get all the old mans money. Also, he is a Geordie, he has a sense of humor.

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1476684910' post='3156184']
One and the same subject I think.
[/quote]

Well, quite, but not just a song about stalking as was suggested.

However good you might be, or think you are, you are only worth what someone is prepared to pay you. If you become a full band member then you would be ok, what with gigs and royalties etc. If you become a hired gun then you have little idea where the next gig will come from as Its dog eat dog in the session world and musicians will literally walk over each other for the gig.

Sadly its never up to us if we "Move up" or not. If the people in the industry believe we are good enough then it will happen, and not always to those that deserve it.

Gladly it has never been a business for me. From 1967 when I first started playing it was about making music and writing songs. If we had been successful as a band that would have meant being signed to a record label and doing gigs in the big venues. Making music was what it was all about, making money was never on the agenda. If we had made money then that would have been a huge bonus. Now? I play cos I love it, we get paid for pub and club gigs and that is perfect.

I am glad it has never become a business or just work for me, that would have taken the magic out of a lifetimes love.

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1476631897' post='3155793']
I agree that his lyrics are (or were) superb - stuff that makes you think and +1 for Fortress Around Your Heart.
He's done a very naughty thing with the lyrics to Every Breath ... though. He made it quite clear on it's release that it shouldn't treated as a love song because it's about stalking. He's changed his mind since.
[/quote]

Ahhhhh. I was told, or it was suggested, that it was about his break up from his first wife.