Jaybeevee

2 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

Just an observation but maybe if you are getting unwanted clipping out of a 400w amp and the output attenuation was less than 50% of it's possible travel/rotation (you said it was on 11 which I assume to mean viewing it as a clockface), then maybe the amp designer needs to rethink things.  Unless of course there is a fault with the amp

Thanks, yep.. when i posted the thread this is exactly what I was wrestling in my mind as this is what I was seeing. The builder didn't answer me dirctly on this point. I will ask him directly again. 

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Most assuredly it does not. Power output depends on a number of factors, starting with the voltage output and frequency response of the bass, ending with the actual impedance of the speakers, which isn't a constant. It varies with frequency. This is a plot of the power output of an amp across the frequency spectrum into a typical 8 ohm twelve in a ported enclosure, driven with 28.3v, which is nominally 100 watts. There's nothing linear about it. This, BTW, is why loudspeaker engineers don't deal in watts. We deal in volts, which are a constant into any impedance load.

 

 

 

 

Wow, great info, really insightful. So am i understanding..? the driver input power in watts (same as the amp output power going into the speaker) varies considerably with regards to the frequency of the signal, the signal being volts. But what difference will a linear volume pot Vs a Log volume pot have on the user? based on my original query that volume at 11o'clock causing the amp to clip was both new and suspect to me? I was given the understanding that as a user, i can expect to set the master volume higher in it's range than i would normally expect to.. er go this is normal for this amp. Playing my Stingray wide open, with the pre amp (of the amp) set to it *crunch* position (on the gain dial) and the 6db drive button engaged (within the design intent of the pre-amp and without clipping at lower volumes) and then not getting past 11 o'clock  on the master without clipping seemed like an issue, especially as it was (although quite loud) not loud enough to keep up a loud drummer.

On 02/02/2023 at 06:05, agedhorse said:

Knob position has nothing to do with how much power is being delivered. This misunderstanding may be part of the problem.

I think in this case it does. it is apparently a different approach to that used in most amps. This is a point made by the builder leading me to understand that the pot position does relate to the power being delivered. 

On 01/02/2023 at 22:12, Downunderwonder said:

Put bass into one amp and take the preamp out to the other amp's return, and on to the cabs. Play with gains to see if it's still impossible to get volume.

Good idea, but I have returned it now. I wait and see what comes back

On 01/02/2023 at 21:54, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Seems like a good idea, but our hearing isn't linear with respect to power. It's logarithmic, requiring ten times the power to sound twice as loud.

This is knowledge above my pay grade, but in terms of the pot used on the master, the builder specifically talks about this aspect and that the power delivery from the amp is via a linear (not sure of the technical terms) pot, and the user can expect to run the master at a higher setting than would be normally expected.

14 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

You couldn't get a good tone without the amps +6dB engaged? What happens if you forgo that and turn up the Master Vol?

Yeah, sure I could, but I was giving it a run. I wanted to test and hear various settings. I used the per-amp features in this case to get a nice not to dirty overdriven tone, and once found that, I wanted it loud enough to play with the drummer. The amp wouldn't deliver this without clipping. The high pass thing.. gawd knows..

Well I guess I was, where as i was using my Stingray 2 eq wide open. With respect to a 77 Stingray eq, they are bass treble cut n boost despite no centre indent. So yeah. It is how I always play it though and again I was A/B testing against my current amp (similar in power, solid state transformer etc). I didn't have a passive bass to hand to see if the clipping was occurring at similar levels. And here is another thing. This particular amp is made or fitted with linear pots. Where as most amps deliver more power in the early part of the volume sweep, and much less in the later, this amp delivers a linear power based on the pot adjustment. As mine was clipping at 11 (o'clock) this is less than half the full power. 

In any case, the builder thinks it may have taken a knock in transit. So i´m hoping that is the case. There is not Active/passive input switch, and so I hoping there isn't an inherent problem with this amps suitability to active basses. I have actually read a comment by an active player who had similar issues with this amp, so we see when I get a replacement..

Thanks for the input.

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

All same connections made on the cabs? One duff wired cab jack that was never used before would do it.

 

400w is pretty big for an old school SS amp. I wonder if it might be 200 + 200 with attendant switching that needs to be correct for the load.

2 hours ago, BassBunny said:

Very hard to offer any advice or opinion without knowing the amp in question.

It's a new build from a small manufacturer. To be honest I´m not comfortable with saying what manufacture as it may not be a fault or I maybe misrepresenting something. I was really only trying to understand if master volume affecting clipping was a thing as I was sitting mulling it over and thought a quick post here might enlighten me. I got an answer to that early in the thread. The manufacturer is supporting me, so I see what's what after I get a replacement. Cheers though 

7 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Load is fine, 500w v 400w isn't hardly any different, so seems like it's duff alright.

 

Other thing to consider is  your hookup cables and connections could be different. One funky miswired connector/ cable can put it out of phase so you're chasing your tail trying to get loud.

Never thought of that. In my case same cables between both amps, but its a good bit of wisdom. Thanks

12 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

What cab load was on the amp?

2 8ohm 112s, TKS 1126s to be precise. Amp is 400w @  4ohms. My Main Amp is 500w @4ohms and is thunderous

20 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

It depends on where the lamp is wired to the circuit. Clipping can take place at every stage of amplification, from the input to the output. The manual should say. In general minimal clipping takes place when the master is on full, with the pre volume low.

Thanks, that's something new for me. Unfortunately, not supplied with a manual, and the manufacturer is not answering me specifically on this point.

6 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

So you had the input/preamp pushed AND you had the master cranked... that pretty much says clipping is going to occur somewhere!  

A bit loosely described. I had the gain at about 2óclock to where the amp identifies ´crunch´. The amp also has a drive button providing 6db more to the tubes. With my Stingray I was getting some nicely mild overdriven tones.. point being well within the design intent of the amp. Then I tried to up the master to match the drummer. So I´m expecting all to be good. The master was set at around 11 clock when the clip light and distorted signal break up occurred. Again, if it's not hitting rehearsal volumes at these settings I´m suspecting an issue with the amp. I was just looking to get confirmation of that or some learning. 400W Mos Fet Transformer power supply should easily handle what I was asking of it. I was just wondering if clipping from the master is expected or un expected.

2 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Maybe the cab was getting farty at the same time.

 

No idea if it's broken or simply not enough rig for the situation.

 

If the amp isn't broken I expect you need more cab. Most amps these days have plenty of power for rehearsals at least

Cabs are good for the amp. In terms of Watts the amp is's delivering towards the lower of the recommended range, and I run a more powerful amp at higher volumes. It was a circuit/electrical kind of distortion sound. hard to describe, but it sounded like the amp was at fault. I just never seen or realised clipping could be produced from master volume control. I will add that in terms of settings, the amp should have coped I feel.

Hi Folks,

I recently picked up an amp (hybrid) class A/B that clipped when I cranked the master volume. Should that happen?

I was pushing the (tube) pre amp a bit, and then to get it up to loud drummer volume, I up´t the volume to 12 o'clock and was getting clipping light flashing with a horrid distortion which accompanied the clipping light. Sounded like the cab was farting.

I always thought (assumed) clipping was associated to the pre amp.

Is it normal or knackered?

Cheers

Soon a member of the club. My R400 is winging it's way to Norway as we speak..

8 hours ago, Woody1957 said:

I cant find a price for the new R400's....

Around 650 Euros is what I was quoted.. 

One of em has My name on it 👏

The Handbox R400 will fit the Bill. There is a 30 Odd page thread on here. A fav of Andy Irvine, so loads of YouTube stuff to go at too. 

Great great basses...

I have GAS for an amp.. and following my own GAS policy, i need to sell a bass if i'm gonna get it. 

It's between my USA Låkland JO or my BB2000. These are that good that it's looking like a keeper over the JO..

Bargin cheap this, but GLWS

30 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Boxes in progress... looks like a pretty hands-on process.

Jeez for hand crafted boxes... this must be really labor intensive and costly.. Have to say, it doesn't seem reflected in the price..

41 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

I thought you had given up on the HB R-400 Jay.

Dave

When they finally become available I can see me being still really tempted even if i am loving the Thunderfunk..

Anyone have any feedback/news on production of R400's?

On 11/03/2009 at 11:12, obi 2 kenobi said:

On a 2EQ, boost bass to half or 3/4, keep treble low, play where a precision pick up would be placed and bob's your uncle.

This a spot on bit of advice..  my '77 2 eq is fantastic and sounds massive. I read a period hang tag or manual at some point that describes use of the early 2 EQ more or less just as @obi 2 kenobi describes. (They are boost/cut with no center indent) I generally play volume and bass on full and treble backed of to around 8  and the Stingray delivers like a boss.

Last night (this thread hanging in my mind) i set the Stingray as described above through my practice amp (Ampeg PT 20 and matching 112 cab) and i really enjoyed the difference, at least as practice level. The bass sounded smooth, even and controlled. A bit of an eye opener if i'm honest. Obviously a mids boost is being effected here with the boom and sizzle tempered, but a lovely at practice volume. Output volume was noticeably lower though.

Definitely goin to explore further at volume with the band.

And to also second @obi 2 kenobi comment on plucking hand position, just about every Stingray player i see plays over the pick up (naturally as it's a great thumb rest and is in my opinion a key factors to the Stingrays 'sound'). Play at the sweet-spot or closer to the neck and boy its thunderous.

37 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

Love the Hawkwind Strap...

As far as a refin goes... you could loose the pony, and try shaven head, contacts and a goatee?..

Gosh.. didn't notice the Hawkwind strap  kudos and first dibs if you sell it lol

On the other hand, if it's something you love and cost is not an issue, you could indulge yourself and bring it back to full glory. I'm sure it would be a satisfying experience.. 

7 hours ago, 3below said:

A good result, playing with a tone that you really like is one of life's pleasures, it makes you want to play.

That is so true 

I’m gonna round off this thread that I started. I was looking for some real world experience between tube and hybrid amps vs so called clean amps to help me in my amp downsizing decisions. I decided to gain my own real world experience by indulging the bass enthusiast in me and purchased a used Thunderfunk TFB 550 from @AxelF. So moving from a Mesa tube head and a 4x12 powerhouse  to the Thunderfunk and a couple of TKS 112s has shown me that clean amps don’t mean you ‘loose’ anything, and chat forum opinions are just that. The Thunderfunk  just a different kind awesomeness to the Mesa . The Thunderfunk is warm and creamy with loads of controlled bottom end. It doesn’t drive at all, just loads of clean power all the way. It lacks a little in the extended highs compared to the Mesa, but I’m not missing it for what I do. 
the moral of the story is I now love my Thunderfunk like I loved my Mesa, and have the best Pbass tone I’ve ever managed. 
happy days

and thanks @AxelF 

Killer Bases these. It took me ages to find one. GWTS