markmcclelland

[color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [font=inherit] [font=inherit]The Madrid trip gathers steam, then it's straight into rehearsals on returning to London. And a few musings on making networking work.[/font][/font][/font][/color][color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [font=inherit] [font=inherit]https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-133/[/font][/font][/font][/color]

Kiwi. Absolutely. It really isn't for everyone. And I'm not even a full time musician yet. I'm just in the scary part. Maybe it's all scary part. Oh. That's the really scary part.

Wonky, thankyou very much for that mate. And yes, all opportunities to think about. A great keyboard player I knew opened a music shop and I know a lot of music shop owners are professional musicians at some level or other. And yeah, the mortgage is a killer and was not something I ever looked at and deliberately so. And yes. Dates equals paycheques. I'm on it. And hey Pete. I was really just talking about the semi-professional v professional aspect of it rather than what it takes in each of the two disciplines to achieve those levels. I found myself nodding to a lot of what you said. Yeah, you're right to say there are a few differences once you pick it apart. Again, correct that the time window of opportunity is scarily tiny while in music it's almost limitless. And also yes, you can make money in music by having a fraction of the talent it would take to play football. I've often used the AC/DC thing myself. Not to mention a certain Mr Clayton. And on the flip side, Jaco died broke.

Just to get back to what this thread is all about, here's the latest entry where I experience and talk about the [color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]frustration and dilemmas of playing in a promising startup original band and a take a quick trip back to Madrid[/font][/color] https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-130/ But please feel free to continue to add any thoughts to the above discussion or anything else you might want to have a look at.

So many great thoughts. Maybe I missed something. If I have, please let me know. PeteB, first, I very much enjoyed my holiday. Thankyou very much. While on it, I also very much appreciated your suggestions of ideas in other avenues that could be looked at and, as time goes on, they may very well be explored. I've always said that being pro, which I would define as not having to have a conventional day job, means you have more time to explore such opportunities. If nothing else, you can have greater availability for meetings and sessions and other such concepts where these things may come about. And yes. The line between pro and, as you say, semi pro, is definitely become more and more blurry. Even semi pro, in many cases, can be a very worthy achievement. Think semi-pro footballer. I'm sure there are many Sunday leaguers on here of quite a high level who still never got anywhere near being able to get paid for kicking a ball around. [b]Wonky[/b] [b]Keep at it mark [/b][b][/b] [b]maybe you can support your frelance stuff with a regular corporate/ function band ? Could provide the regular income you need ? Pays better than pubs for sure... If you cant find a slot in one, form one ! With the right direction 3 nights a week is not unfeasible... The calander soon fills up for a polished outfit [/b][b][/b] Wonky, your thoughts on it were pretty much spot on I thought and thanks a lot for the kind words. The diaries are significantly progressed from what's on wordpress and things have also moved on. Your advice, as were your thoughts, is totally spot on. I particularly loved this little turn of phrase [b]the highly competant are in higher demand ( thats not to say demand is high !)[/b] Your thoughts on your own experiences were very interesting and this got me thinking. [b]I guess on re-reading my 1st post i was wrong in saying "pro" equates to SINGLE source of income, i guess the more appropriate view would be PRIMARY source of income. That meaning your income from playing is your bread and butter and your bar job, helps support that.[/b] Yes. I think PRIMARY source of income would be a good way to look at it. My situation was that I was working the bar job while doing a few paid gigs to supplement that income. I was looking at it that it would be a great if I could be doing enough paid gigs that the bar job would eventually turn to become part time to supplement that. At that point I would have had no problem, to change your own description round a little, of calling myself a professional bass player who also did some bar work. [b]the gigs or playing i do, i really do enjoy, which is more than can be said for some of the tosh i played for money. [/b] I really liked this too. Yes it's true that being a pro, you do have to do songs and gigs you might not particularly be into. And if you're not concerned about the money, or it's just a sideline, you can shrug off those kinds of obligations. In fact, I very much agree with Peteb that this is a whole great post and my favourite in fact. A lot of nails hit on heads and I think a very interesting read for so many types of people. Thanks for sharing all that. And [b]im glad you could decifer my dodgy typing and spelling, including refering to your good self as oete.[/b] Just love it. [b]Mental Extra[/b] [b]On your journey to becoming a 'pro' player, at what point do you know you've arrived? Or did you start the journey as a pro and expect to arrive as a wealthy pro? [/b] Answer to this question. I started as a broke English teacher and became an even more broke English teacher before the revelation of the move to London which had all kinds of adventures. So no. I didn't start as a pro but started at a level where making money with my bass playing was attainable if I could get myself in the right place, hence the diary and its attendant adventures. At what point do you know you've arrived? As has been quite rightly pointed out here, playing a first gig where you get paid is definitely not that point but it is a first professional gig so a start. I think, as far as defining yourself as a professional bass player, you've arrived when you don't need any other source of income to pay all living expenses. However, the industry the way it is, you do generally have to do a few different things to get by. As Pete alluded to, people teach, produce, engineer, write, play all different types of dep gigs. And maybe do some kind of freelancing in another profession. Also, think about this. Oh, there are so many other things you could talk about - including how much you need to make depending on your lifestyle and wants - but I'll leave that for now. While playing a first standard pub gig was admittedly hardly a stellar achievement, it was a significant moment in the diaries. I came to London purely because I knew such opportunities existed and that my level was suitable to take them. It was so nice to arrive on a scene where you could play music people knew and enjoyed and get paid for it. Very rarely the case in Madrid where I was living before. There, I often told people about the scene I knew in Ireland where it is very easy to have a good cover band and make a very good supplementary income. I say this because these are the kind of bands I played with in Madrid and, no matter how good they became, they were never going to be more than hobby bands purely because of where they were operating. I think it's possibly time to say that the February in the Diaries is 2015 and things have progressed a little. I'm also actually not a barman/waiter anymore although this may be very much subject to change.

Fair enough Pete. I wasn't clear in that what me and my friend were doing was playing in a duo with our own songs which is something you, rightly or wrongly, don't expect to make any money from for quite some time if ever, so I think the approach has to be slightly different. I think that with an original project, you have to accept you're not in it for the money but still put everything into it or it isn't going to go anywhere. At all. But I think that's a different subject to what this is all actually about. That showband experience is a very telling story and, I'm sure, a common one.

Thanks a lot Pete. I really am appreciating all the thoughts and wishes and good natured disagreements. And yes Mental - and I don't believe that's your real name. Let's not open that an of worms. I will give one thought here though regarding what you said, I believe you have to act and think like a professional to become one. Not like the reply I received from a singer once who wasn't pulling her weight and I told her to be more professional about it. She said, 'Mark, I'll start acting like a professional when we start getting paid.' There was only one way that was going to end after that although we remained great friends.

All the above is very interesting absolutely no offence taken anywhere in this. [b]On your journey to becoming a 'pro' player, at what point do you know you've arrived? Or did you start the journey as a pro and expect to arrive as a wealthy pro? I'm honestly not a 'hater' Mark, I just find the whole 'definition of a pro' an interesting debate.[/b] Again, all cool and no offence taken at all. I'm currently on holiday and it's really difficult to write and do stuff right now. I'm honestly not ignoring anyone. I'll have a good look at all this in the next few days when I'm back in London and in more workable conditions.

In the meantime, for better or worse, here's how that first 'professional' (please don't hit me) gig played out. https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-129-part-2/

Hi guys. I'm really enjoying the debate here. I may address some points but I'm in the middle of something now but wanted to come on quickly. First, I appreciate all the thoughts and thanks everyone for taking your time to come in and give them. All very cool. I just want to say right now that in no way am I making the claim, as far as the diaries are where they are, that playing that one gig makes me a professional bassist. As I said, still a waiter/barman. It's just a professional gig. Sorry Pete. I'm disagreeing with you on that point. . Oh, and yes. a f**k long reply it was. I quite enjoyed writing it and glad you took the time to read it all. There's someone on another site, won't name names, who would disagree with Wonky and believes that even if you make ALL your money playing bass, you still can't call yourself a professional unless you have a certain level of competence/knowledge. I infer from that that if you make millions playing in some superstar rock band but can't play a jazz standard in a different key on demand you're not professional. Oh, I have no idea what he means. Right. This is already much more than I intended to write. I have read everything and I've no doubt there's more to come on this subject. When I get the chance, I will give my thoughts on a bit more, afterall this is my thread and I am kind of obliged to do so. Oh why didn't I just call it my first 'paid gig?' That could not possibly have been debated. But I guess then we wouldn't all be having so much fun debating it. All the best Mark Professional barman and semi competent waiter. Sometimes quite likes to play bass.

Cheers Ivan. I know nothing bad was meant by it at all and it was all in a positive spirit. Yep. Things do often have to go on the side. It's something else that gets talked about that it's difficult to have just one job in music now and maybe it always was, I don't know..Professional actors too. Waiters, waitresses until you can get one acting job to keep you going until the next, or until they hopefully all start to roll into each other. Hell, maybe a musician does other things just to make more money to help out should things dry up in the future, or simply to have a little more. Afterall, if you've got downtime, might as well use it.

Ivan, thanks a lot mate. Yes. It's a start. And Pete, first off, really great that you're up with it and I totally get where you're coming from. I also fully expected this to be brought up when I wrote that tagline. I go back a long way making money from playing bass gigs and have thought about this a lot and have had a lot of conversations about this. If you make money from it, it's a professional gig. End of. Your description of it being a decent semi pro band playing a standard pub gig is exactly spot on. However, the word semi pro - and I'll look at that below - is the kicker. It's pro, of whatever distinction. People are paying you. They want and expect a professional job. Therefore you're doing a job as a professional even though it may not yet be - and yes so far, far from it - your profession. How do many bass players, or musicians, make a living? By doing a gig exactly like this. Then another one a few days later, then maybe a session in a studio, then maybe teaching a lesson somewhere, then possibly standing in covering for someone at a jazz gig. Maybe a reading gig at a big show a few days later. Taken on their own, they are nothing but sets of jobs. Or, as you rightly say, a semi pro musician playing a standard pub gig making up one of those sets of jobs. That is all part of the make up of a professional set up. Again, I totally get where you're coming from. But I turned up and did a job. I got paid for it. It was a professional job. Is the stated aim of the Diaries achieved? Hell no. Take a look through the whole of The Diaries again. I expect no-one to do that so I'll do it here. In Ireland I was what I would call semi professional which is what The Punching Preachers can also be called. Like a footballer playing in the lower reaches of the leagues and getting paid for it, if he's lucky enough to do that. He would be described as semi pro. Oh. I'm going to digress here for a second. Just setting off for a gig a few weeks after this one, I told someone about Punching Preachers and said something like I was off to play with my semi professional band. He said, 'Semi professional? Do they only half pay you?' 'What do you mean?' 'Do they say they're going to pay you and the money doesn't quite make it to your bank for some reason? Or do they pay you half of what they said they were going to?' 'No,' I said. 'So you'll get actual money for the gig you do tonight?' 'Yes,' I replied. 'So it's a professional band then,' he finished. Back to my point. I'll look back through the Diaries for you and beyond, because it is in there. A few years ago - a good few years ago - I was what I would call, and would still call, a semi professional musician. That is someone who does gigs they get paid for, ie, professional gigs, but doesn't do enough of those gigs to not have to do another job. Therefore, semi professional. However, the gigs themselves are still professional gigs. Now, bringing it into Diary territory, once I left Ireland and moved to Madrid, for reasons which cannot possibly begin to be covered here, I did gigs all over Madrid for six years, some of a good professional standard and to paying audiences. Not once did I go home with more than 20 euro in my pocket. And I believe that amount of money was made twice. Add taxi fares for my amp and I still probably only broke even. Leaving Madrid on this quest of which I'm currently writing, I went to the Costa Blanca where I didn't make a penny from bass. Apart from the bit of fun where I was asked to play, 'The bassline from that Formula One Song' for the change on the table. From Costa Blanca back to Madrid and right back into whatever that was going to be all over again. Then, from out of nowhere, the opportunity to go to London. Anyone who's read that knows what an absolute nightmare that became. But I stuck with it. Went homeless and jobless, sleeping on the floor of a friend's bedroom wondering when the moment would come I would have to admit it was all over and go back to Madrid again, tail between my legs to start all over again there to plan to leave again who the hell knows when. That didn't happen. I got a bar job. With zero experience, I struggled in that, being way below standard. I kind of floundered really but stuck with it as I had no choice and held so hard I was just good enough to not be fired to have it all fall apart all over again. I learned the job. Got good at it. Fully established myself in the place to the point where some regulars were introducing me to their friends as the manager of the whole joint - never mentioned in the Diaries. Through all this, I started to play on the music scene and started to get a little known. Landed a gig with an original band that may or may not make money, that may or may not even make any kind of dent anywhere. At the same time got myself in this pub covers band, for that is what it is. But despite what it is, through all of that, this is the first time in seven years through Madrid, Costa Blanca, back to Madrid and then onto London that I've stood on a stage, played my bass and got paid more than it cost to get there and back. That's six years in Madrid making zero money from music, and then getting paid for the first time within months of arriving in London. That makes it, indisputably, my first professional gig in London. And yes. Of course, the very next day, or maybe the day after, I went back to my actual job of being a waiter and barman.

[color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [font=inherit] [font=inherit]A bit of a shock today and then my first professional London gig.[/font][/font][/font][/color][color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [font=inherit] [font=inherit]https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-126/[/font][/font][/font][/color]

Guys, play nice up there. Seriously, thankyou very much to FuNkShUi for posting my noodlings above. And yes, do check out the diaries if you get the chance. I post updates in the thread whenever a new entry is posted. marksdiaries.wordpress.com

No, that's absolutely cool. Thanks a lot for that. I was a tad confused.

Thankyou very much. But put it where?

Thanks for asking. Here's a couple of noodles. The first one is from a while ago but is still the best single ten seconds of my playing I've managed to record. It was part of a four video online application audition for a cruise ship. It asked you to learn and record three cover videos and a one minute 'impress us' video. The first ten seconds is just going for it, the rest is jamming around the place. Maybe I should have just shredded for the whole minute. Who knows? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yrhkl9-LM Although I quite like this bit too from The Blues Kitchen, Camden of August last year. A horribly awkward first minute showing exactly what a live jam session can be then a really kick ass jam. I get an unexpected solo call at 5:47. This is Freddy McVintage who you may have met already. I'm not sure but he is in there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ZUsNEtcHA I'm horribly bereft of footage from quite a while back as I haven't been able to get videos off my phone and so have stopped recording anything.

Exactly.

[color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]A bonus entry today. I think I'll call this one nasty and nice. https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-123/[/font][/color]

Thanks a lot Stylon.

[color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Today, Mark's Diaries is the featured blog on Wordpress.com. To go straight to the latest entry, go to: https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-120/[/font][/color]

[color=#4B4F56][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Where I find myself in a venue way above my paygrade and discover a girl who's been singing with me was on the Chinese X Factor https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-111/[/font][/color]

A spectacular jam with Julia followed by a very interesting encounter https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-110-part-2/

Stylon, thankyou so much. And yes. I was quite pleased with that Hendrix line myself.

Brilliant. I have a feeling this could run and run. I do hope you're ready to account for your actions one day.