Pirellithecat

15 minutes ago, TimR said:

I wouldn't normally be putting drums or guitar or anything else other than vocals through the monitors on a self operated PA.

 

The exception being on a very large stage some guitar if I'm a long way from the guitar amp. But even then that gives the vocalist problems.

 

I think getting a stand alone 'stereo' EQ for the monitors is a wise idea. You then just put one chanel through each side.

That's interesting.  If I'm successful in reducing our stage volume, won't the Drummer find it (even more) difficult to hear the guitars and bass especially if he uses IEM's?   Whilst i wasn't thinking of putting the guitars, drums and bass through the Vocal monitors, my trials with IEM's, so far, indicate I need vocals, guitars, bass (.... and might even be tempted with a little drum to improve the "lock-in" between bass and drums) via my monitor feed.   
Am I missing something?     

🤣 Great! ...... so that'd be 4 monitor feeds  (Bass, Drums, 2 Vocals) ... and we've recently replaced our mixer with a nice new shiny Mackie 16ProFX ........ with 3 Aux Sends!!!!     😳Doh!   But you are right.    I'll start trying to sell all my  "spare" gear (and maybe a kidney) to fund a 4 Aux send mixer -  any suggestions!!   What were you using on Saturday - great sound with several monitor feeds and not enormous in terms of "footprint".     Great crowd response too - how did Sunday go?

7 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

I promise Im not on commish for these but ive gigged them twice now as I was concerned about how my hearing was being affected my being right beside the drummers crash and snare

and they have been fantastic, Everything is super clear and at a quiet level. For your singer I would deffo recommend, cheap too.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BY6MH97W?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Thanks - I'm trying to use Xvive U4 currently - bit of a learning curve but fingers crossed it'll help. 

6 hours ago, jimmyb625 said:

I agree with all of this, especially with regard to her using in-ears. I used to struggle with our female vocalist, as she had excessive levels in the monitor, so much so, that no one else on stage ever needed any of her vocals in their monitors.

As soon as I managed to move her over to in-ears, the rest of the monitoring became far more manageable.

 

@Pirellithecat Have you looked at any eq'ing for the monitors to identify if there are frequencies that are particularly susceptible to feedback? Obviously, it's going to be tricky to do if you're pushed for time on a get-in and it can be a bit anti-social if you're "ringing" out the monitors to eq them. I've just seen that you're on an analogue desk, which is going to make it a little trickier when compared to a new fangled digital one with eq's just about everywhere, however you could put something in-line and used analogue output gear is very affordable nowadays. 

There are also "feedback destroyers" which are either heaven sent, or the work of the devil, depending on your experiences with them.

Yep, I've tried EQing the monitors and it certainly helps, but to get to the required volume they are still prone to feedback.    Clearly if we can manage the volume we'll help with the feedback.   

Concerning the choice of an analogue desk, in hindsight this was a mistake.  I was worried about the learning curve/complexity, the reliability of the connection and the ability to reach over mid song and deal with issues whilst playing, but I probably should have bitten the bullet. 

Any thought on the idea of doubling up the monitors so that we replace one large one with two more compact ones so that each vocalist can get the level they need rather than the higher level they need when sharing?
Does the ability to position each monitor closer to the relevant person's ears and in better alignment with the Null area of their Mic outweigh the fact that there might be more sound overall from the sum of the sounds of having 2 Monitors rather than 1?   

VSmith1 of this Parish has very kindly just leant me the reference book mentioned above, together with another tomb, so I'll have a look at those over the next few days and see if I can find Nirvana!  Much obliged!!

Thanks all!

I do need to work on the positioning of the band members/monitors on the stage - that's a very good point.   Might require a bit more "negotiation though .......

We currently use a single monitor shared between the vocalist and the guitar player who also sings.   If we "split up" the vocalist and guitar player I suspect we would need another monitor.  I'm wondering whether that might actually be a good idea anyway, as each individual monitor would have to cover a smaller space and consequently be able to be quieter.    Each monitor would also be more able to be positioned in the Null Zone of each Mic.  One is an SM58, the other an SM58Beta.

In the rehearsal space the bass cab is not near a wall - it's centrally placed in the room,  at least 2meters away from the nearest wall.  I'm trying to measure the volume of overall sound pressure waves reaching my ears rather than the bass volume.  The (doubtless approximate) sound-meter app seems to suggest that we are a tad loud and that it's not just my perception or aged ears.
I've re-read the info on SM58 placement relative to a monitor and we're pretty much in line with that, except the wall behind the vocalist in the rehearsal space.   

So next steps are - use 2, different monitors - away from the reflective wall and in the null zones of the mics.   If this helps, negotiate the position of the band members on stage.  (This would also be really helpful as it would move me away from the Crash Cymbal!.) 

Thanks Phil, 

Progress I think.

Taken at above/behind the bass rig (a bit further away from everything than my ears), and using Backline plus 2 Vocal Monitors, NO MAIN PA Speakers. 

Peak levels at rehearsal (accepting all caveats) were 115dB. 

This at 3metres from Drums, Guitars, and 2 meters from monitors.

Most songs in the 107 - 112 range with peaks at 115.   This was using Backline and 2 vocal monitors

Didn't tell the band until the end. 

They were shocked, 
We agreed to monitor it some more and try to reduce levels. 

115dB's at the topography of the rehearsal space suggests that the levels for someone playing (drummer) or standing on top of the Crash Cymbal (me) will be exposed to levels significantly higher than 115 - I'll measure at next gig. 

The drummer tried IEMs again and once his drums are Miked up - he might be OK with using them - he still feels isolated from his drums etc .... but work in progress.

I'm still trying IEM's, but find that, I can't really tell what the bass actually sounds like "out front" so without a "Sound guy" that makes live a bit tricky - but I'll see how this evolves. 

One remaining issue is that the main vocal monitor, in front of the Vocalist, seems excessively prone to feed back.  At volumes she can hear herself properly it feeds back erratically.   Shure SM58 Mic, Laney CPX12 Monitor.  could be reflections from wall immediately behind her, rehearsal set-up positioning, horrid monitor - or useless bloke on mixer (me)! 

All in all though a step in  the right direction

Thanks everyone for continuing input.

Very interesting ...... whether dB's are relevant or not I'm with the band tonight so I'll see what output my cab is (dB) in the context of the overall sound levels (at my ear or thereabouts) Is the 120dB at 1metre? 

I see there's a nice one going on here ....... 

Not sure this is in line with the question, ..... but...... I have been using a Studiomaster Sense 12+ as a floor monitor in a noisy band.    No drums but Vocals/guitar/+/_Bass.    I found it to be better than my RCF Art 710 even with the latter on a pole.   It's a very neat (small) footprint as it has a concentric driver and is relatively light and inexpensive.   It can also be pole mounted.
 

Most weekends my right ear is closer to the Crash Cymbal than is the drummer's left lug hole,  ...... I'm clearly doomed!     😲

Right ..... Sound Meter app installed - I'll measure on stage and FOH volumes just to check that it is really loud and not me being a sensitive sort of chap.   I know it won't be very accurate, but it'll give an indication.   I'll ask the experts in the band what they consider loud before I do it and share the results. 

I'd be very surprised if we're not in excess of 120dB on stage ..... let's see. 

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Yup. Can't hear XyZ? Turn yourself down.

 

Curious, what amps are being used?

Well - 2 guitar amps - I think its a 40 Watt Marshal Combo and a Friedman JEL-20/Marshall ?? via a 2x12 Marshal cab - so at face value not too loud.  But they are  ........... 

(My Genzler 800Watt Magellan via a 15/12inch Mesa rig rarely get above 10 O'Clock on the volume, but even that in small spaces is LOUD!) 
To put this into context - we use RCF 932's and a RCF 705 Sub.   The Sub's just ticking over but the volume on the Tops is pretty much full at most gigs.  
So, I'm embarrassed to say we are just too loud! 

I've enough info to make a stab at solving some of the on stage volume issues and am negotiating within the band.  Controlling the overall volume will come but it'll take a while.

I'll check out the Paul White  pocketbook - thanks. 

The issue with drums is that whilst very loud overall, the Kick drum and to a lesser degree, the Snare, benefit from reinforcement.  It is odd, but the volume of the band seems independent of these 2 aspects to the extent that, even in smaller venues, the reinforcement benefits the overall sound. 

But yes, we are too loud, certainly on stage and possibly in the "auditorium".    I'm working on it.............. 

What would you say the differences are between the 800+ ,  TT800  are to the WD 800? 

I saw a band using a Subway 2x15 with the WD800 over the weekend, and I have to say it was "the sound" I have in my head.   I've played the same venue and of course my memory may be a bit dodgy but it sounded far better than my set up.  I guess it could be talent though!!   

Pardon?

Update - 

Whilst waiting for the ABC control the 25K tone pot arrived.   Expecting the ABC tomorrow so I thought I'd check out the available space in preparation for routing out a battery box etc.  Being one for instant gratification I bunged the tone pot in anyway just to see .........  

Bloody Hell! 

Just wasted the afternoon playing my part modded bass .... it's transformed. 

The tone knob now actually makes a significant difference (to the, er, ... tone..) and the insertion loss, whilst still there, is diminished.  

So far only played via 'phones, but its a real difference.  

If the ABC control achieves the predictable blend that I'm after, this bass will be an absolute killer. 

Just got to be patient though ....  I could easily transform it to firewood with a router .......

( and yes I expect incoming remarks ....) 😅

50 minutes ago, TimR said:

Low pass filters on all mics. ✅

 

Use the AUX for monitors, not 'monitor' output which tends to be a mono of your main FOH mix.✅

 

A small amount of kick and (if you have them) overheads, together with a small amount of guitar in the mains will get you a more balanced sound FOH, rather than trying to balance everything using backline. Not for boosting drum or guitar volume, just for evening out the spread, you can then have quieter on stage volume. 

 

Yep, might wean the band onto this - at the moment it's just vocals and kick/ snare via FOH.

Good luck. 

And what's this "Set List" malarkey?🙄

Ah - most of this thread seems more about intellectual integrity, moral worth,  of nicking other peoples songs rather than the legality of ripping off copy-right.  The PRS point seems to put the latter to bed so we're just left with the intellectual moral worth points.    I'm sure it's been said, but, as songs are probably largely the product of one or two creatives in a band, it follows that the rest of the band are effectively "covering" the song anyway.   I guess many bands are effectively cover bands these days - Dr Feelgood still perform but have no original members.   I guess if all Covers Bands are parasitic then session musicians are equally parasitic?? 
I used to play in a band of entirely original numbers.  The vocalist would not sing any covers as it was beneath him.    However, all the songs he sang were written by the singer/songwriter of the band.    I would argue therefore he was infact singing covers!   And as for traditional music/musicians  ...............

Disappointing isn't it.      

Cover bands are parasites in the same way as actors performing plays by Shakespeare (or other).  They do not pretend to be the originators of the material but often add their own interpretation.     

They may be performing at the RSC or the local theatre group, may be good or not.    So pretty similar to cover bands or even, perhaps orchestras.

Discuss

😅🫢

Thanks for spending the time helping out everyone - appreciate it.

Some good suggestions which I'll try to get adopted.

The FOH sound is probably the least of my worries as I already pre-set all the sensitivities of the mics (vocals and drums) before the gig,  so I don't usually have to fiddle with those. Ditto the EQ's which are mostly pre-set with venue tweaks as necessary.   It's the onstage stuff which is the difficult bit. 

And whilst it might be a case of the excellent being the enemy of the good, unless I can hear what's going on, I find it difficult to enjoy playing.   
The real weakness is that when someone pink torpedos-up the rest of the band can't really work out what's going and it's a bit of a vicious cycle.  And it get's too loud = feedback.

But some good take-aways from this thread which I'll try to implement. 

And yes, putting guitars etc through monitors might sound a bit daft, but they only go to me and the drummer, not the guitar players.  The only way to make progress in the IEM crusade is to get all the instruments into the mix.   If I can make it work, then the drummer may well follow  and then ... who knows!   

Thanks Jakester.  
The choice of Ear plugs is problematic - the guitar player is pretty set with what he uses - not sure what they are but not cheapy foam bungs.   Drummer really just wants "cheap" so varies between foam and etymotic "knock offs".   IEM's would sort this problem.

Like the idea of a speaker stand for the drum monitor - I'll push this, as he could use my monitor which can be stand mounted if I can't get him to use IEM's.  

Like the idea of picking up the ambient sound and have a spare unidirectional mic (possibly two) I'll have a play!  

It's really odd that the other members of the band don't see any link between what they do and the ability to get decent sound quality, on and off stage.   It's made worse when having seen "competitor" bands😅 they come back and say  "T'Other Band and Vibes sounded really good" - how do they do that?"  So I suggest  ..... "could it be the  quiet stage, having everything in the mixer, IEM's or sensible use of monitors, not too loud" to get the inevitable response , "yeah but ............ (insert appropriate excuse)". 

Anyway slowly slowly catchee monkey.

And yes, of course, agree to all requests from band , but ignore as necessary!!! 😁

In terms of gain we tend to keep everything in the "intermittent" green LED area - maybe I should tweak that up a bit? 

The Mic users are mostly OK in terms of technique, save for the occasional holding of the mic bulb!!  The drummer's mic has an on off switch so it's only on in tracks where he sings. 

I wonder whether the use of Ear defenders contributes to the loud stage and, as a result, monitor feedback?. The guitar cab is on the floor (for some guitar voodoo reason) and the guitar player uses ear plugs so he's not really aware of the true volume on stage.  To him, the vocals seem quiet in the monitors so wants them turned up (even asks for the bass to be louder on occasion!).  The drummer is also using ear plugs and from his standpoint he's not too loud (given that everyone has now turned up). He has tried IEM's twice, but doesn't like the "detached sound" - although pretty much everything is in his monitor feed.   I do ask whether the sound is any clearer via the ear plugs, but patience is needed.   He also sings and his mic/monitor is a major cause of onstage noise and feedback. I'm experimenting with IEM's rather than a monitor, but so far I'm not getting on that well with them although, at least, the left one acts as a drum suppressor!   

Currently, the Guitar player and vocalist share a monitor placed centre stage.  The drummer has a dedicated monitor.    I have a monitor, but rarely use it so I wonder whether it might be better to use it for  a dedicated monitor for the Guitarist(who sings).   It's a bit more hassle on a small stage, and seems at odds with trying to reduce stage noise, but maybe 2 quieter monitors might work better than one loud one?  Or is this a daft idea? 

From comments so far,

Tweak monitors down after FOH up and running (if possible)

Adjust gain at each stage a bit - probably a bit more at the start of the chain and a bit less at the end.

Persevere with IEM's 

? until IEM's split two vocal monitors? 
Get out front mid set

Go check out other bands as a band. 

And .........

Thanks everyone.
 

Certainly looks like the height of the strings at the nut is high.   Just checked my 2 fretted basses and the E String is significantly less than 1mm above the fretboard adjacent to the nut with the string fretted between the 2 and 3rd fret.   Check out the official guidance on the internet, but yours looks a lot higher.  Maybe the slots need adjusting or the Nut might be too high overall - both jobs might be best done by a guitar tech or at least someone with proper nut slot files.  Good Luck!  Be interested to hear how you get on.

Ha ha,  Lighter sticks ... in your dreams! 

And guitards .... well, what can I say. 

Good point re. getting out into the audience mid set .... I am a bit shy though and it would mean walking/playing/avoiding the exuberant revellers all at the same time.  But it's worth a try. 

In terms of mixer settings I'm always surprised how much we have to change eg Monitor levels at each venue.    Other than that, with the exception of the amount of FX, as most levels are already above Unity, I have little to play with save the actual volume controls on the Speakers.

In terms of gain - if each step in the journey from Mic to PA speaker adds more gain, (mic- initial gain - channel fader - main fader - Speaker) is it best to have the Speakers set at full allowing gain to be reduced in the preceding chain?