Belka

18 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Not sure the TV’s were particularly low-quality. QC issues were more apparent from about 75-on, I’d say..?

I've always found that the TV logo Fenders seemed to have worse QC than the '76-'83 'smaller' TV ones. The woodworking/fit is much rougher on the earlier-mid '70s ones. '77-'78 seemed to be when they started to improve QC, and to my ears they sound better (especially the Jazzes - the late '70s ones had a slightly higher output, similar in resistance to early '60s basses). I think the reason why people perceive the early '70s basses as better is a) they're closer chronologically to the pre-CBS period and b) the weight. They're certainly a lot heavier than the earlier ones. 

After watching that disgusting display of TECHNIQUE FOR TECHNIQUE'S SAKE and TOTAL LACK OF GROOVE OR FEEL I was violently, physically sick. My next reaction was to smash in my computer monitor like a suburban dad witnessing the Sex Pistols on Bill Grundy. Has he not heard that LESS IS MORE? I guarantee that if he was asked to play Mustang Sally it would be nothing but an indulgent display of tapping and double-thumbing.

Does it have the three or four bolt neck attachment? I'd presume four given the lack of a bullet truss rod adjuster. Those tuners were used up until '75 and have not been reissued by any company. I'd guess that it's either a '74/'75 bass with a newer decal on the headstock, or perhaps more interesting, some kind of special order; perhaps a customer really didn't want a three bolt neck attachment back in '77 and Fender found an earlier neck for them. As other have said. a good look at the body, etc., would probably help 

Ultimately Wal can do what they want and they certainly don't owe anyone an affordable bass, but to my mind it would be good for them and their customers if they could do something similar to what Fodera did around 10 years ago; employ new young luthiers and train them up, try to expand production but slowly, gradually bringing the 4 year wait down to something like 18 months, and introduce a standard line, say a 4 string mark 1 and a 5 string mark 2 with non-customizable specs (perhaps without laminate tops), and sell them for around 50%-66% of a custom, but still made in the UK by the same people. 

Hopefully this would help the business's long term future without diluting the brand as at present once Paul decides to retire it's not clear what the future would be.  

13 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

Surely the pickups would be easy to replicate though? Alleva Coppollo and Moollon are supposed to sound close but from clips I’ve heard it’s not been right to my ears. But then some of the upgraded pickups in a vintage bass, such as early EMGs still sound vintage to me.
 

My thinking is it was the wood source. These days a lot of the wood used for guitars is from sustainable forests in Asia where the trees aren’t as old as now protected forests in US, South America, or Canada. Where was the wood Fender used from in the early days, is it still available? The difference in climates and age will affect the density of the wood.

I think that wood also plays a role of course. For pre-CBS, the Brazilian rosewood is a lot denser than the Indian which is used on repros. Also, outside of Musikraft and the Fender custom shop, no-one will make a 7.25 radius laminate rosewood maple neck -they all tend to be slab. I don't think quality alder or maple is hard to come by, although ash is getting rare. Also, regarding '70s Fenders, everyone wants light weight these days, but Northern/heavy ash was probably a key ingredient to that tone which no-one would want to touch these days.

I have heard that the wire and magnets used today differ in composition from the stuff used in the '60s/'70s/'80s, even though it's described the same way (alnico 5, heavy formvar, etc.). But modern builders wind their pickups hotter. 60-64 or so, as well as 76-82 Jazz bass pickups were typically wound at around 8-8.5k. 65-75 are lower, around 6-6.5k. Most modern 'repro' J pickups are typically around 9-11k. Also, the 'vintage' heavy formvar wire so many people talk about was NEVER used on Jazz basses - only Precisions, and even then only up to a certain year in the early '60s. 

So when you see Jazz bass pickups with heavy formvar wire wound to 11.5k described as vintage....nah.   

8 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

What sound is that? I have played 6 60s jazzes and they haven't sounded the same. In fact, from sound I wouldn't be able to put a decade on anything. The best sounding Jazz I ever played was a 1965 jazz, sounded great (no use though, not enough strings). However, one of the worst jazzes I have ever played was a 1966 jazz - a squier affinity would have probably sounded bettter, anything would. The 66 was more expensive though as it was original, whereas the 65 had had a refret and had a replacement pot. And frankly what they sound like or play like is not really so important to their value.

 

 

There is no bubble, it is an appreciating asset, there are (and can be) only certain amounts of 60s basses, that number is going down, and the number of people with disposable income is going up, so they will keep appreciating. There are no shortage of bankers or stock brokers who have a display case for one.

I may be wrong but I don't think many vintage instruments are appreciating that much in value. They're certainly keeping pace with inflation, so they're probably a better bet than keeping money in the bank, but the heady days of the '90s and early 2000s are long gone, and I don't think the amount of disposable incomes are going up, especially among the younger demographic. I know of at least two players in the 55-70 demographic (neither of whom are lawyers/stockbrokers) with huge and valuable vintage guitar bass/collections, but I've not met any 40-55 year old musicians with any collection of vintage instruments. As for younger people, forget about it.

In my working life I've met many stockbrokers, lawyers, and a few dentists, doctors. I've never known any with vaults filled with pre-CBS Fenders or Alembics/Foderas on the walls. Perhaps there was a moment back in the '80s/'90s when a few ex-hippy turned corporate overlords did have such collections, but I suspect it's not much of thing any more. I also think the idea of masses of vintage instruments going to Japan for huge prices is outdated - I heard that a lot of the ones that did go there  a few decades ago are now returning to the states. 

15 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Get ready to be shot.

 

I’ve yet to find a modern bass that sounds the same as a 60s or 70s Fender bass. I’ve really tried because I want that sound and was silly enough to waste money on a house all and the trimmings they require. I have been lucky to A/B true vintage against reissues (even an 80s Fullerton jazz) and they just didn’t sound the same.

I agree with you. Especially with regard to Jazz basses. The repro Precisions tend to be closer to the originals, but every vintage style modern Jazz I've tried has not sounded that close to the actual vintage ones. For some reason this seems to be more the case with '70s style instruments. Personally I think the main factor is modern manufacturers getting the pickups wrong - they wind them far too hot these days compared to the originals.

I used to like rosewood and ebony, and still do like ebony for fretless, but for fretted I seem to favour harder rosewoods (Amazon, Brazilian), and maple and pau ferro. To me they just seem to give the sound more grit and cut through a bit better.  

That would be definitely worth buying at that price if only for parting out - it's a '70s neck but I'm almost certain the tuners are early pre-CBS and would probably be worth at least £500. 

8 hours ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

Surely if it was originally a solid colour it would have been alder?

I think by the mid '70s pretty much all the basses were ash - not sure I've ever seen an alder 'S' series bass, although they may well exist.

I may be wrong but I reckon your bass must have come from the factory in natural. There is absolutely no trace of any paint at all on the body which suggests it was never a solid colour that was stripped. You can see in the neck pocket where the stick it was mounted on was positioned as it doesn't have any of the poly coating on. I'd say your friend is wrong.

Also, it's quite a nice looking piece of ash. I think they kept those for the natural finishes as used the 3/4 piece bodies with obvious join lines for the solid colours.

Nice bass. I remember playing it when it was for sale in the Gallery in London. Do you know what pickups are in it? I remember asking back then and they had no idea.

I saw them last night in Bath. It was superb.

34 minutes ago, Kev said:

Is there a conversation on Talkbass somewhere where he specifically references how the Presentation II costs Fodera over $30k to build??  Or even this mini bass at almost $17k, still taking their 10% profit pledge as true?  I haven't seen Fodera use a wood that a much cheaper luthier does not use at least as good a grade as, so wouldn't have thought this would have any bearing on price.  It seems to be all about the shops location, and how many hours it takes them to build each bass.  Still, I can't fathom the figures at 10% profit.

I doubt there's any such thread, they gave a general outline of their pricing policy and I feel this is enough. One thing to also bear in mind for things like the Presentation II is research and development costs. I know they made prototypes of this bass. You could argue that any manufacturer builds prototypes and why should that influence the price of a new one, but I doubt they sell more than 2 Presentation II basses per year, so the price might somewhat reflect the hours put into the design/ prototype builds. This is probably also be the case for the bass in question here. 

I think I and others have said that materials do influence cost

34 minutes ago, Kev said:

Sorry I couldn't find the mini bass there, they all seem full scale.  Can you link me??

 

And in fairness I am more referring to their signature/artist range like this one than their base level standard range, so it probably is unfair of me to base all on that, but a business model where they break even (this is what I know of their model, from your post) is still completely bonkers, and they should really move the shop if there is any shred of truth in that. I think their standard range prices still came in a few thousand dollars higher a piece than top end masterbuild basses from the other builders you mention.  Isnt it more like $20k for the full scale presentation model? Are they made during high rent months in NY or something?? 🙂

 

Edit: Just flashed up the 2022 price list, $35,200 for the Presentation II?!!

Sorry, i didn't know that you were talking about short scales. I regular long scale custom will be cheaper than $18,000, more like around $12,000. The scale length and the fact it's a mini has very little to do with the price. Alembics also come in 30-36" scale lengths but I don't think that makes much difference to the price. I can only presume this one is so expensive due to the fact it takes longer to make. Fodera's pricing structure is to somehow work out cost per man hour and take it from there, although I'm not aware of the exact formula and obviously materials would play a role as well. The reason a Presentation II costs almost 6 times as much as a standard is mainly because it takes around 6 many hours to build, as well as having slightly more expensive materials. 

I didn't say they only break even now, I said they barely broke even for much of their existence. They've been making profit for around 10 years now, although I don't know exactly how badly Covid affected them. 

47 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

They play up the NY bit as though they were in Manhattan. But they're not.

 

They're in Brooklyn, and not even in the trendy (expensive) part.

The second part of your statement may be true, but I've got no idea where the first bit came from. Their branding has Brooklyn all over it. 

1 hour ago, Kev said:

By all means link me to an $18k Fender/Alembic/Sadowsky mini bass? Or even a $9k one??

 

If it truly costs so much in NY that they only break even on 5 figure basses, their business model is completely insane.  But I just don't believe that.

Apologies, I wasn't clear when talking about Sadowsky or Fender custom shop. I meant that you don't seem to see the same level of outrage at the pricing of Sadowsky and Fender Custom shop  compared to regular J and P clones that you get when comparing Fodera and other boutique basses. 

As for Alembic, knock yourself out:

https://reverb.com/marketplace?product_type=bass-guitars&make=alembic&item_region=XX&sort=price|desc

Why do you say their business model is based on 5 figure basses? The majority of their sales are the standard line, which are made in New York and cost about the same as an American/German Sadowsky, with extremely similar spec. I have no problem if you think they're too expensive, too ugly, or underwhelming, but I don't feel it's fair to slate them for charging too much when you don't actually know anything about their business model.  

2 hours ago, Kev said:

Just madness.  And people will buy it, gleefully.

 

I don't get the travel bass trend, but I get there is a market and loads of builders are doing them now.  Saw one for $3,000 odd the other day and thought who on earth would pay that kind of price.  Little did I know.

 

It's hard to watch some luthiers struggle to make a name for themselves, build for little profit if any to get their names out there, and there's companies like this basically printing their own money, because they have a NY workshop.

 

They're not exactly printing money. For most of their existence they barely broke even. They're making a profit now, but no-one at Fodera is getting rich. Yes, they're very expensive, but they're a lot cheaper than Alembic, who for some reason never seem to get called out on their prices on this site. The same goes for the likes of Sadowsky and the Fender Custom Shop, which are considerably easier to build than Foderas. Maybe it's the unconventional designs/topwood or the fact that Foderas tend to be played by people who elicit a reaction of 'that kind of technique leaves me cold/too many notes/why can't they just groove?' around these parts that rubs people up the wrong way. That, and the fact that they're in the 'tonewoods do matter camp'.

I fully believe that the right Fodera is worth the money, but this one is meh for me. IMO, short scales work well with flatrounds for a deep, funky kind of sound, but for roundwounds and a decent amount of definition/crispness to the note, I'd prefer medium scale at least. 

Still, you can't deny he's a monster player, and if that shorter scale allows him to do things he can't get away with on a longer scale, then fair enough.  

You might enjoy this - I think he might link to an album in the video.

18 hours ago, funkypenguin said:

What did you end up with??

17 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

what he said!

This beast. It ended up an Imperial with an ash body, maple neck, Amazon rosewood fingerboard, alder toneblock and a poplar burl top. I went for holly pickup covers as I always liked white pickup covers like EMG DiMarzio and Fender did in the '80s.

Here's the link to the site with all the specs: https://fodera.smugmug.com/Newborn-Gallery-Vol-V/Newborn-1309/

23 minutes ago, funkypenguin said:

Their wood library is absolutely incredible, even after you've narrowed it down to a specific type of wood the selection and variety they present for you is insane!

 

Agree. I did the shop tour in 2015 on a visit to NYC. They really know their wood. At the time I had an idea of an Emperor with a walnut body, maple neck, ebony fingerboard and purpleheart top. What I ended up with was completely different.

On 05/04/2022 at 13:05, AndyTravis said:

“HULLO…I WANT ONE OF YOUR LOVELY BASSES FOR FREE. TA!”

 

Paul Herman - “er, no”

 

”IN REBEL BLUE”

 

Paul Herman - “errr. NO”

 

”WELL, YOU’VE JUST LOST A CUSTOMER!”

Talking of Wal and Fodera - the Waldera. 

https://reverb.com/uk/item/52022127-fodera-wal-emperor-2003-crotch-walnut

I have enquired about this in the Fodera facebook group. These are new instruments which were made in a very limited batch in 2021. Apparently the production was 'supervised by Vinnie'. It's a bit odd as there is nothing at all about them on the official Fodera site. It was probably done as a favour to the old manufacturers and due to the small number of instruments made they weren't worried about making much of fuss about them, or just assumed they would only be sold on the domestic market in Japan. 

They are 'legitimate' in the sense that Fodera would have had to send them the proprietary electronics, pickups and tuning machines (I see that the bridges are Hipshots however), but the Fodera USA shop had nothing at all to do with their construction. They're unlikely to have Fodera serial numbers and in the case of an issue with them, I doubt Fodera would help in any way - you'd probably have to go to the place in Japan that made them.

There's a guy on Instagram in the States called Jacob Smith (jacob_smith_bass). He's a great player and has quite a few videos of a Frankenfender he made with the Weather Report pickups. They sound really good in my opinion, like most of Seymour's stuff. My understanding is that they are wound a little hotter than the original pickups (and the Antiquities which is Seymour Duncan's attempt to clone a early '60s Jazz pickup). I presume this was done to thicken up the sound on the soloed bridge pickup (some say it's thin but I don't think anyone could really complain about Jaco's stock tone). 

OP, go for it, I've never heard a bad set of Seymour Duncan pickups. Even if you don't sound exactly like Jaco I'm sure they'll sound great.