Belka

8 hours ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

Surely if it was originally a solid colour it would have been alder?

I think by the mid '70s pretty much all the basses were ash - not sure I've ever seen an alder 'S' series bass, although they may well exist.

I may be wrong but I reckon your bass must have come from the factory in natural. There is absolutely no trace of any paint at all on the body which suggests it was never a solid colour that was stripped. You can see in the neck pocket where the stick it was mounted on was positioned as it doesn't have any of the poly coating on. I'd say your friend is wrong.

Also, it's quite a nice looking piece of ash. I think they kept those for the natural finishes as used the 3/4 piece bodies with obvious join lines for the solid colours.

Nice bass. I remember playing it when it was for sale in the Gallery in London. Do you know what pickups are in it? I remember asking back then and they had no idea.

I saw them last night in Bath. It was superb.

34 minutes ago, Kev said:

Is there a conversation on Talkbass somewhere where he specifically references how the Presentation II costs Fodera over $30k to build??  Or even this mini bass at almost $17k, still taking their 10% profit pledge as true?  I haven't seen Fodera use a wood that a much cheaper luthier does not use at least as good a grade as, so wouldn't have thought this would have any bearing on price.  It seems to be all about the shops location, and how many hours it takes them to build each bass.  Still, I can't fathom the figures at 10% profit.

I doubt there's any such thread, they gave a general outline of their pricing policy and I feel this is enough. One thing to also bear in mind for things like the Presentation II is research and development costs. I know they made prototypes of this bass. You could argue that any manufacturer builds prototypes and why should that influence the price of a new one, but I doubt they sell more than 2 Presentation II basses per year, so the price might somewhat reflect the hours put into the design/ prototype builds. This is probably also be the case for the bass in question here. 

I think I and others have said that materials do influence cost

34 minutes ago, Kev said:

Sorry I couldn't find the mini bass there, they all seem full scale.  Can you link me??

 

And in fairness I am more referring to their signature/artist range like this one than their base level standard range, so it probably is unfair of me to base all on that, but a business model where they break even (this is what I know of their model, from your post) is still completely bonkers, and they should really move the shop if there is any shred of truth in that. I think their standard range prices still came in a few thousand dollars higher a piece than top end masterbuild basses from the other builders you mention.  Isnt it more like $20k for the full scale presentation model? Are they made during high rent months in NY or something?? 🙂

 

Edit: Just flashed up the 2022 price list, $35,200 for the Presentation II?!!

Sorry, i didn't know that you were talking about short scales. I regular long scale custom will be cheaper than $18,000, more like around $12,000. The scale length and the fact it's a mini has very little to do with the price. Alembics also come in 30-36" scale lengths but I don't think that makes much difference to the price. I can only presume this one is so expensive due to the fact it takes longer to make. Fodera's pricing structure is to somehow work out cost per man hour and take it from there, although I'm not aware of the exact formula and obviously materials would play a role as well. The reason a Presentation II costs almost 6 times as much as a standard is mainly because it takes around 6 many hours to build, as well as having slightly more expensive materials. 

I didn't say they only break even now, I said they barely broke even for much of their existence. They've been making profit for around 10 years now, although I don't know exactly how badly Covid affected them. 

47 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

They play up the NY bit as though they were in Manhattan. But they're not.

 

They're in Brooklyn, and not even in the trendy (expensive) part.

The second part of your statement may be true, but I've got no idea where the first bit came from. Their branding has Brooklyn all over it. 

1 hour ago, Kev said:

By all means link me to an $18k Fender/Alembic/Sadowsky mini bass? Or even a $9k one??

 

If it truly costs so much in NY that they only break even on 5 figure basses, their business model is completely insane.  But I just don't believe that.

Apologies, I wasn't clear when talking about Sadowsky or Fender custom shop. I meant that you don't seem to see the same level of outrage at the pricing of Sadowsky and Fender Custom shop  compared to regular J and P clones that you get when comparing Fodera and other boutique basses. 

As for Alembic, knock yourself out:

https://reverb.com/marketplace?product_type=bass-guitars&make=alembic&item_region=XX&sort=price|desc

Why do you say their business model is based on 5 figure basses? The majority of their sales are the standard line, which are made in New York and cost about the same as an American/German Sadowsky, with extremely similar spec. I have no problem if you think they're too expensive, too ugly, or underwhelming, but I don't feel it's fair to slate them for charging too much when you don't actually know anything about their business model.  

2 hours ago, Kev said:

Just madness.  And people will buy it, gleefully.

 

I don't get the travel bass trend, but I get there is a market and loads of builders are doing them now.  Saw one for $3,000 odd the other day and thought who on earth would pay that kind of price.  Little did I know.

 

It's hard to watch some luthiers struggle to make a name for themselves, build for little profit if any to get their names out there, and there's companies like this basically printing their own money, because they have a NY workshop.

 

They're not exactly printing money. For most of their existence they barely broke even. They're making a profit now, but no-one at Fodera is getting rich. Yes, they're very expensive, but they're a lot cheaper than Alembic, who for some reason never seem to get called out on their prices on this site. The same goes for the likes of Sadowsky and the Fender Custom Shop, which are considerably easier to build than Foderas. Maybe it's the unconventional designs/topwood or the fact that Foderas tend to be played by people who elicit a reaction of 'that kind of technique leaves me cold/too many notes/why can't they just groove?' around these parts that rubs people up the wrong way. That, and the fact that they're in the 'tonewoods do matter camp'.

I fully believe that the right Fodera is worth the money, but this one is meh for me. IMO, short scales work well with flatrounds for a deep, funky kind of sound, but for roundwounds and a decent amount of definition/crispness to the note, I'd prefer medium scale at least. 

Still, you can't deny he's a monster player, and if that shorter scale allows him to do things he can't get away with on a longer scale, then fair enough.  

You might enjoy this - I think he might link to an album in the video.

18 hours ago, funkypenguin said:

What did you end up with??

17 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

what he said!

This beast. It ended up an Imperial with an ash body, maple neck, Amazon rosewood fingerboard, alder toneblock and a poplar burl top. I went for holly pickup covers as I always liked white pickup covers like EMG DiMarzio and Fender did in the '80s.

Here's the link to the site with all the specs: https://fodera.smugmug.com/Newborn-Gallery-Vol-V/Newborn-1309/

23 minutes ago, funkypenguin said:

Their wood library is absolutely incredible, even after you've narrowed it down to a specific type of wood the selection and variety they present for you is insane!

 

Agree. I did the shop tour in 2015 on a visit to NYC. They really know their wood. At the time I had an idea of an Emperor with a walnut body, maple neck, ebony fingerboard and purpleheart top. What I ended up with was completely different.

On 05/04/2022 at 13:05, AndyTravis said:

“HULLO…I WANT ONE OF YOUR LOVELY BASSES FOR FREE. TA!”

 

Paul Herman - “er, no”

 

”IN REBEL BLUE”

 

Paul Herman - “errr. NO”

 

”WELL, YOU’VE JUST LOST A CUSTOMER!”

Talking of Wal and Fodera - the Waldera. 

https://reverb.com/uk/item/52022127-fodera-wal-emperor-2003-crotch-walnut

I have enquired about this in the Fodera facebook group. These are new instruments which were made in a very limited batch in 2021. Apparently the production was 'supervised by Vinnie'. It's a bit odd as there is nothing at all about them on the official Fodera site. It was probably done as a favour to the old manufacturers and due to the small number of instruments made they weren't worried about making much of fuss about them, or just assumed they would only be sold on the domestic market in Japan. 

They are 'legitimate' in the sense that Fodera would have had to send them the proprietary electronics, pickups and tuning machines (I see that the bridges are Hipshots however), but the Fodera USA shop had nothing at all to do with their construction. They're unlikely to have Fodera serial numbers and in the case of an issue with them, I doubt Fodera would help in any way - you'd probably have to go to the place in Japan that made them.

There's a guy on Instagram in the States called Jacob Smith (jacob_smith_bass). He's a great player and has quite a few videos of a Frankenfender he made with the Weather Report pickups. They sound really good in my opinion, like most of Seymour's stuff. My understanding is that they are wound a little hotter than the original pickups (and the Antiquities which is Seymour Duncan's attempt to clone a early '60s Jazz pickup). I presume this was done to thicken up the sound on the soloed bridge pickup (some say it's thin but I don't think anyone could really complain about Jaco's stock tone). 

OP, go for it, I've never heard a bad set of Seymour Duncan pickups. Even if you don't sound exactly like Jaco I'm sure they'll sound great.

I own a Fodera. This of course means that I can't actually play bass and am just a collector who likes looking at basses, which is unfortunate, as the consensus seems to be that Foderas are ugly and Vinnie needs lessons in design. Luckily for me however, I drink a lot of coffee, so it comes in handy as a place to rest my cup on.

If I was serious about learning Bass I'd probably either get a Gus (for a Sigue Sigue Sputnik tribute act I'm thinking of forming🤣) or a Harley Benton to mod. 

If I do get a Gus, what colour long balloons would you guys recommend for the horns? Do they come with an air pump? Does the type of balloon impact the tone?

I might be going against the grain of opinion here but I don't think avoiding overplaying is a particularly difficult skill to master. Pretty much anyone who's good knows when to hold back and also when to play more busily - Jamerson, Rainey Jaco, Sheehan, etc. would all fall in this category. From my experience people who really overplay tend to be compensating for a lack of technical/theoretical ability; rather than well placed note choices, it's a lot easier to throw in a load of rapid minor pentatonics without any regard to the harmony you're supposed to be outlining.

Everyone should listed to AC/DC, U2, and Van Halen and hear how well their bass players support the song without being flashy, but citing these bands shouldn't be an excuse for not learning more advanced styles/theory - and I'm not just talking about speed here - note choice and knowledge of harmony is far more important.

I'm tempted by the orange bass too. I notice it has an older version of the preamp without the switches on the body however - does anyone know if the preamp still has the option to switch the mid and treble frequencies? I have seen a video where someone mentions a push/pull option on the mids knob and a button accessed on the backplate to switch the treble frequency but I can't find any confirmation on this. 

Do any Xotic owners here know if the rear pickup on the XJ model is in '60s or '70s position? I can't find anything about it on the website. To me it looks like '70s but the Hipshot bridge, which is bigger than the Fender BBOT and the slightly wider than normal wooden pickup covers may be masking the fact it's in the '60s position. 

Thanks!

6 minutes ago, gareth said:

“An AVRI would be a much better bet.”

Exactly

The AVRI '60s Jazz bass and the Precisions sound great to me, but the '70s one I found fairly lacklustre. Didn't sound much like a real '70s Jazz bass. Same with the Vintera. The '60s one sounds much closer to the original than the '70s one. 

15 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

To be fair, they're always pretty good but not necessarily great! 

 

They're generally always made well often with better tolerances that Mexican or even American basses, but sometimes the sound can be lacking. The pickups sometimes can be quite lifeless, and the common use of basswood in the bodies tends towards a more nasal sound, which can sound great if that's what you like, but might not be everyone's cup of tea.

'70s Fenders can get a bad rap and I'm sure quality did slip compared to pre-CBS, but they often sound great. A lot of people say to stick with the early '70s ones only, but to my ear at least the best sounding ones are '77-'80. They changed the pickups around this time and they generally sound excellent. They can be very heavy however. 

I was perusing the website of Music Force yesterday (they seem to be Korea's biggest music retailer when I came across this: The late '60s Traditional Jazz bass:

http://musicforce.co.kr/product/list.html?cate_no=1100

Matching headstocks on black, candy apple red and lake placid blue, blocks, binding, and even lollypop tuners. 

Haven't found anything about them in Europe yet ad they seem to be a special run but I'm hoping they show up here - they all look gorgeous. 

The law of diminishing returns applies very neatly to Jazz basses and Precisions, where you can go all the way from the most basic Squier up to Fender Custom Shop or Sadowsky, and the sounds they put out will all be in the same ballpark. It's a bit different when you get into basses which are a lot more custom. I think earlier in the thread some said they felt that Wals were way overpriced. Unfortunately however, if you want the Wal sound you're going to have to get one. Same with Alembic. Of course as regards functionality the diminishing returns may still apply, but saying that a £6000 Wal is only 10% better than a £1000 Fender bass is asinine and pointless.

i own both inexpensive and expensive basses and they all are usable in multiple situations, but the cheaper ones do not and could not ever have the sounds of the more expensive ones, and vice versa.

I think it's a much better idea to start out with lines, or at least some visual marker (short lines/dots like on Alain Caron's F Bass). Of course unlined may look cooler but generally the top players who play fretless tend to have better intonation when playing lined. Jaco, Willis, Bona all spring to mind. The bigger name unlined players like Steve Bailey, Percy Jones, Christian McBride and Tony Franklin tend not to have the best intonation, although they are all obviously great players. There are some exceptions; Pino played unlined very accurately, and Michael Manring has great intonation too. I suspect this comes down to them both having very good relative (or perhaps perfect) pitch, and putting in many hours of practice. 

Generally the lines are most useful when playing above the 12th fret as that's where the intonation can get really squeaky. It's less of an issue in normal playing positions. Of course using your ears is important, and you would not always play directly on top of the line depending which part of the neck you're at. 

One caveat is that the old 'use your ears' chestnut does depend on a player having good ears in the first place. To be honest I think most people vastly overestimate their ears. It's almost certain that there are players out there with pitch recognition good enough to distinguish between and play both just temperament and even temperament, but I doubt these people would be even 1% of the fretless community.

Using a tuner while playing scales will probably make you good at playing scales in tune, but I'm not sure of its wider benefits in promoting good intonation while improvising fills because as soon as the muscle movement changes, the muscle memory from that goes out of the window.

I'm not a teacher so I'm wary of giving advice, but I would say if you plan getting an unlined, knock yourself out, but be aware that the dusty end will present considerable challenges. Work on ear training /pitch recognition as much as possible both on but also away from the instrument, and play as much as possible - keep away from playing fretted for a good few months.